pro's and cons of lighting

[Syriuslydelyrius]

I grow with CFL's right now. I have around 40.000 lumens in a 3x2x6 closet. I have CFL's everywhere in that closet and I still feel that the plants can use a lil more. I plan for my next grow to buy a 400w HPS on top of what I have now.
So, I think that the best light is a HPS.

40,000 lumen in 6sq ft is 6666 lumen per sq ft if the bulbs were new this is double what you really need and if your thinking its not quite enough there could be some other issue causing you to think this as this amount of lighting is more than a sufficient amount. When you make the switch a 400w hps lamp will give you the same lumen coverage as with the CFL's so you wouldnt have to keep them going in there allong with the 400

 

[trombon84]

I say that is not enough when I look to the buds on the plants. They are now in the 5th week of flowering and they....are not that big. If you look in my profile I have some pics with what I'm talking about.
The setup that I made is:
on top - 12 CFL = 1600 lumens each
on sides - 14 CFL = 1600 lumens each + 3 grow fluorescent (3500-4000 lumens)

As I said, I have lights everywhere... I dont know...probably the way how I set them up is not the best way ....

another thing that can be is that I have only two plants, but one of theme is HUGE! is a tree! was a bug seed and that is all over my closet. takes a lot from my space and a lot from the light.

if anybody has any suggestions i'll appreciated

 

[Syriuslydelyrius]

I say that is not enough when I look to the buds on the plants. They are now in the 5th week of flowering and they....are not that big. If you look in my profile I have some pics with what I'm talking about.
The setup that I made is:
on top - 12 CFL = 1600 lumens each
on sides - 14 CFL = 1600 lumens each + 3 grow fluorescent (3500-4000 lumens)

As I said, I have lights everywhere... I dont know...probably the way how I set them up is not the best way ....

another thing that can be is that I have only two plants, but one of theme is HUGE! is a tree! was a bug seed and that is all over my closet. takes a lot from my space and a lot from the light.

if anybody has any suggestions i'll appreciated

Honestly your pictures dont look too bad at all really. Yeah you should get bigger and more dense bud with the HID lamp but by no means would you need to have the CFLs and HID in there at the same time that wont add much other than adding to the electric bill and you would have like 12,000 lumen per sq ft this is extreem overkill. If you want to add anything to your HPS lamp add some UVB bulbs they sell at pet stores for lizzards.

 

[trombon84]

but I dont have a HPS lamp. I have only CFL. I was thinkin` to buy a 400w HPS lamp and have it for my flowering room along with some of these CFL`s (on sides).
The grow fluorescent lights and the other CFL's for my veg room.

What do you think?

 

[Syriuslydelyrius]

but I dont have a HPS lamp. I have only CFL. I was thinkin` to buy a 400w HPS lamp and have it for my flowering room along with some of these CFL`s (on sides).
The grow fluorescent lights and the other CFL's for my veg room.

What do you think?

I do belive I have allready answered this, please reread what I have written so I dont have to keep repeating myself. Thanks...

 

[TeaTreeOil]

but I dont have a HPS lamp. I have only CFL. I was thinkin` to buy a 400w HPS lamp and have it for my flowering room along with some of these CFL`s (on sides).
The grow fluorescent lights and the other CFL's for my veg room.

What do you think?

More light is more light. It's that simple.

Syriuslydelyrius is well... you read his name, right?

 

[Brick Top]

CFLs only suck when used improperly. You'd have to plant 100 seedlings under a 400 watt MH or HPS to match the efficiency of fluoros for vegetative growth.

Not all vegetative growth occurs while plants are seedlings so your example is hardly valid. A 400-watt HID light will cover an area that is 5ft. by 5ft. and you cannot fit 100 plants in pots of any size in 5ft. by 5ft.

 

[Syriuslydelyrius]

More light is more light. It's that simple.

Syriuslydelyrius is well... you read his name, right?

LOL hahaha

he has 40,000 lumen of cfls at over 6000 lumen per sq ft at the moment and is going to add another 40,000 with a HPS lamp giving him 12000 lumen per sq ft or if he just used 1/2 of his cfls thats still 9,000 lumen per sq ft This is still tripple the amount of lumens per sq ft than required. About everything you will read about the amount of lumens per sq ft needed will say 2,000 to 3,000 lumen per sq ft and with my own experiences I have noticed a bit better results with 4,000 lumen per sq ft however I have been as high as 7,000 per foot and there wasnt really a distingisable differance than with the 4k.

Take it for what its worth, I have been growing plants indoors for almost 20 years now so feel free to just discount everything I say just because of my username LOL

 

[Brick Top]

More light is more light.

It takes a great deal more lights of various types to match what a single HID light will do. If someone wants lights hanging all over and light cords hanging all over and needing power strips to plug into because they do not have enough outlets to plug into then of course they can use inferior lighting or almost any type as long as they use enough of it.


Also the lumen argument only goes so far because lumens are a measure of lux which is a measurement to determine brightness based on the human eye. Plants are not human eyes so rating the effectiveness and efficiency of any lighting strictly or even mainly by lumens is absurd at best. Lumens are related to good lighting but lumens are not the ultimate key factor.

Look at the range of sensitivity to light brightness, lumens, of the human eye and then look at the photosynthetic response to light. You will find that much of what plants ‘see’ is not what humans see so using a human sensitivity scale for what plants ‘see’ is not nearly as valid of a scale to use as most people wrongly believe it to be.


The human eye does not see much of what plants ‘see’ so why is a human light sensitivity scale the yardstick that so many people go by?

 

[TeaTreeOil]

Not all vegetative growth occurs while plants are seedlings so your example is hardly valid. A 400-watt HID light will cover an area that is 5ft. by 5ft. and you cannot fit 100 plants in pots of any size in 5ft. by 5ft.

3" diameter pots. 16 per sq ft. 400 per 25 sq feet.

4" diameter pots. 9 per sq ft. 225.

Dammit.

5" diameter pots. 144.

WTF! My numbers are so far beyond 100.

6" pots, 4 per square foot. Here we go... 4*25=100!

You lack imagination, or something. Never heard of 6" pots?

EDIT: Indeed, Brick Top. Which demonstrates why your bulb comparison attachment is completely fallacious! Glad you say one thing and then another.

LOL hahaha

he has 40,000 lumen of cfls at over 6000 lumen per sq ft at the moment and is going to add another 40,000 with a HPS lamp giving him 12000 lumen per sq ft or if he just used 1/2 of his cfls thats still 9,000 lumen per sq ft This is still tripple the amount of lumens per sq ft than required. About everything you will read about the amount of lumens per sq ft needed will say 2,000 to 3,000 lumen per sq ft and with my own experiences I have noticed a bit better results with 4,000 lumen per sq ft however I have been as high as 7,000 per foot and there wasnt really a distingisable differance than with the 4k.

Take it for what its worth, I have been growing plants indoors for almost 20 years now so feel free to just discount everything I say just because of my username LOL

Anyone can grow a plant with an incandescent. It'll get the required light. So what?

Full sunlight is over 10,000 lm/sq ft. Or even up to 120,000 lux. And plants can use more light than outdoors provide.

Some strains have adapted to high-output artificial light.

I always say success with growing is determined by genetics, care, and lastly light. You won't see much benefit increasing light beyond a point if you do not increase care. This is quite well known.

You also can't do simple math, apparently.... 600w over 2 years would depreciate to less than 72,000 lumens. Not "82,00", which I assume you meant 82,000. Carry the one next time.

 

[Big P]

there is no debating


HPS lights will grow mo better weed.

cfl's will grow weed thats mo worse weed.




Fact: they both grow weed.


End of story

 

[TeaTreeOil]

Uhm. HPS emit almost zero UV. UV makes potent buds. CFLs emit more UV, in terms of watts/area/seconds than HPS. Even comparing a 26w CFL with a 400w HPS.

For this reason is why CFL and MH make more potent buds. But yes, HPS does add density. Probably from all the heat dehydrating the buds. No thanks.

 

[KaliKitsune]

I would suggest if you go HID to obtain a horticultural Ceramic Metal halide bulb - they have major output in blue AND red, have ungodly output maintenance, and last a bit longer than your typical horticultural bulbs the only con is I have yet to see them in higher than 400 watt flavors.

If you consider fluorescent, don't do CFL unless you want the wiring job, get a T5HO array instead.

 

[bts420]

:go horticultural Ceramic Metal halide bulb

W00t! I use 1 400w ceramic metal halide and 1 400w hps over a 4x4 ft tray with nice results. =) The CMH bulb that I have only runs on magnetic hps ballasts, so make sure if you running the ceramic to get the right ballast for it. The spectrum is great for everything and it makes some decent UVB rays with glass off (doesnt throw too much heat). Tricome production is great, but size might lack a little, thus the hps. I believe the lumen output of the CMH is 34000 compared to 55000 on the hps. The lumen output decreases much slower in the CMH tho.

 

[Syriuslydelyrius]

You also can't do simple math, apparently.... 600w over 2 years would depreciate to less than 72,000 lumens. Not "82,00", which I assume you meant 82,000. Carry the one next time.

yes that was a typo the "," in the 2nd digit instead of third so yeah i forgot a zero. Thank you for pointing out my typo.

I was refering to the 100,000 lumen bulbs I use and it degrades down to 80% of its orignal lumen your talking 80,000 lumen. With the cheaper bulbs that are 90,000 inital lumen it would be 72,000 and in his 36 sq ft its still 2,000 lumen per sqft. I just took the 18,000 lumen loss figure you gave and subtracted it from the 100,000 lumen my bulbs produce getting 82,000 lumen but I have corrected that post so that now it reads 80,000 which is a 20% loss of inital lumen.

The CFL bulbs you will be replacing after 2 years of use and if the HPS lamp is down the 20 to 25% you claim it is you would replace that in this 2 years also.

So go find your best deal on 12 23w and 12 105w cfl and compare that price to the $80 to $100 for the 600w replacement bulb.

I am unsubscribing from this post now feel free to agrue it to death as I wont be arround to read it nore to I really give 2 shits about it. Have this guy burn double the wattage and pay tripple the replacement costs per bulb if it makes you feel better however its still wishfull thinking to belive a cfl's replacement cost is cheaper than a HID lamp.

 

[TeaTreeOil]

I just think people shouldn't have to deal with inaccurate information.

Having accurate information lets whoever make their own decisions.

 

[candylime12]

You will see alot of debate and agruments about the best choice of lighting. Most people will defend there choice claiming its the best with there last dieing breath...

Well the fact is that the best choice is the one that works best for your situtation. Most will tell you that you should have 2000 to 3000 lumen per sq ft with 2k being the min and 3k for best results. I have had better results with close to 4000 per sq ft but going over 4000 wont give you any real noticable benifit. So you need to choose a light system that will give you this 2000 to 4000 lumen per sq ft while being able to keep your room from getting too hot.

600w HPS= 90,000 lumens = 150 lumen per watt (the 600 is the most efficient HID lamp) PROS= Faster/higher yield and efficiency, Long bulb life. CONS= Heat requiring a more expensive better ventilation system and more money on climate controll. If your going to shove a big old lamp in a little box you would also be smart to add a thermostat that will shut down your HID lamp if the temp gets too high.

The CFL's
105w (5000k spectrum) bulb is 6200 lumen= 59.04 lumen per watt.
23w (5000k) bulb is arround 1500 lumen (depending on manufacturer) = 65.21 lumen per watt. PROS= Alot less heat than a HID lamp, and most will agree that CFLs produce a higher quality smoke than the HID, Cheaper startup costs. CONS=Not as fast and efficient yield wise, shorter bulb life.


OK so your 2 plans on lighting.
The HID Lamp is 2770 lumen per sq ft.
The CFL setup is 2567 lumen per sq ft.
Either of which is in the proper ratio of needed light per sq ft. There are 730 hours average per month on a 12/12 bloom cycle you will have your lights on for 365 hours.

HID 600w X 365hrs / 1000 = 219kwh per month X $0.12 (an average price per KWH check your bill to see what you pay) = $26.28 per month during bloom.

CFL 1536W X 365 hrs / 1000 = 560kwh per month X $0.12 = $67.27 per month during bloom.

Now the figures and math I have given should scream to you use the HID lamp. However keeping a 6x6x6 box under 90 degrees with a 600w burning in it will not be a super easy thing to do however I dont think its impossible either. Make sure you get an air cooled reflector and if you dont have an electronic ballast then mount the ballast on the outside of the box to help with heat. you have 216 cubic foot of air in that box but I would go with a 450cfm fan with a speed controll which at full speed will totally refill your space with new air twice every min. This should surfice however spending extra money on a controller that will adjust the speed of your fan according to temp and shut down your lamp for a bit if it gets too hot would be good insurance.


Good luck and keep us posted..

no offence to others but this post made alot of sence to me. i agree with you completely just by the math. but i suck at math and thought that theres some intelagent peeps on riu.
but what my plan was is to make a box line it with visqueen on one end a carbon filter,inside a cold mist humidfier and a cage fan. hooked to a duct into the room. for fresh air. (cage fan cfm would triple the exhaust fan cfm) exhusast would be two bathroom ceiling vent fans ducted to a pusher fan double the two fans. to a home made carbon filter. im going to draw a plan for it and ill put it up it looks good from a paper point of veiw anyhow. wait to comment untell i can put up the drawing.

 

[Brick Top]

6" pots, 4 per square foot. Here we go... 4*25=100!

You lack imagination, or something. Never heard of 6" pots?

Yes I have heard of 6-inch pots and I know for a fact that they are way undersized to grow plants in. Now if someone wants to start small and keep bumping up their pot size over and over again until they finally reach an adequate sized pot that is their choice but it would be an absurd choice to make when there are far better options to pick. The pot size I use the most is 13 inches, 7-gallons, though I will from time to time use a 5-gallon pot size for smaller strains.

Can you Vaseline 100 of those into a 5ft. by 5ft. area Mr. Wizard?

EDIT: Indeed, Brick Top. Which demonstrates why your bulb comparison attachment is completely fallacious! Glad you say one thing and then another.

Your reliance on a brightness scale that is based on the human eye’s ability to see brightness, lumens, is what was fallacious. It is what the most uneducated and inexperienced growers mainly rely on. Lumens do have some relevance to growing but not anywhere near the amount that you continually give it.

You also can't do simple math, apparently.... 600w over 2 years would depreciate to less than 72,000 lumens.

Why do you think it is that bulbs should be replaced after a certain amount of hours of use? So you do not have the depreciation you mentioned. You write as if someone is unable to replace their bulbs and will be stuck with a lesser output when that is not at all the case.

 

[Brick Top]

I just think people shouldn't have to deal with inaccurate information.

If you truly believed what you wrote you would stop dishing out the inaccurate information that you continually dish out.

Remember that you were the one that inaccurately claimed that the low grade aluminum alloy that is used to make aluminum foil is as reflective as high grade aluminum (99.9% pure) and that is used to make reflective hoods that are pebbled or textured and have a reflective coating added to them.

That sure was some great and accurate expert advice given out by you that time.

 

[TeaTreeOil]

You compare lights with lumens. How is comparing them on brightness any different? It's derived from the same thing.

Don't put pretend to speak for me. Thanks.