Ron Paul is my pick (so far)

[420worshipper]

Reguardless you have to admit it is the truth....
Please prove it wrong.... If you can.

Wow you still are missing what I said originally so here it goes again....

And I don't mean opinions, or news reporters comments, I want hard factual evidence. That the Republicans have done this.

No news reporters comments, means no news articles. Hard factual evidence means that you have proof of Constitutional violations. Something that can be taken to a court of law.

 

[Dankdude]

Disprove it, then I will state my own opinion on it.

 

[Dankdude]

Also you did not address the constitutionality of the Patriot Act.

 

[420worshipper]

Also you did not address the constitutionality of the Patriot Act.

Have you read the Patriot Act fully? I have and its real intimidating if you have no frame of reference. But I am unaware of any constitutional amendments that it violates. Nor have I seen where it violates any U.S. laws, considering the entire document is littered with places where Public laws allow certain aspects of the Patriot Act. All they have done is strengthened certain aspects of those laws. Here is the links for the entire Patriot Act if you would like to read it and then debate what violations of the Constitution are in it.

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)::

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)::

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)::

Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)::

It took me a few days to read the entire thing and then reference the public laws it lists and then the Emergency Powers Act as well. So I will give you a week to do the same.

For the Public Laws that are referenced in the document you can go here.

Lawyer, Lawyers, Attorney, Attorneys, Law, Legal Information - FindLaw

And for the Emergency Powers Act you can look here...

FindLaw's Writ - Dean: Presidential Powers In Times Of Emergency

Congressional Research Service Reports - General National Security NOTE: most links on this one are pdf's.

 

[Dankdude]

yup I have read it.... every nauseating page of it.

Patriot Act II

US Constitution vs. The Patriot Act

I see that you use the emergency powers act to state your case, (nice try) But that act is only valid while we are under attack... Which at this time we are not.

Now here is where I'll point out where the Patriot Act Violates the US Constitution:

Amendment IV Freedom from unreasonable searches

Patriot Act: The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

Amendment VI Right to a speedy and public trial

Patriot Act: The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

Amendment I Freedom of association

Patriot Act: To assist terror investigation, the government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity.

Amendment VI Right to legal representation

Patriot Act: The government may monitor conversations between attorneys and clients in federal prisons and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

Amendment I Freedom of speech

Patriot Act: The government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

Amendment VI The Right to confront a witness for the Prosecution.

Patriot Act: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. US citizens (labeled "unlawful combatants") have been held incommunicado and refused attorneys.

Emergency powers or not, what is stated above is in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States.

 

[CannaBoss]

Ron Paul....

 

[420worshipper]

yup I have read it.... every nauseating page of it.

Patriot Act II

US Constitution vs. The Patriot Act

I see that you use the emergency powers act to state your case, (nice try) But that act is only valid while we are under attack... Which at this time we are not.

Now here is where I'll point out where the Patriot Act Violates the US Constitution:

Amendment IV Freedom from unreasonable searches

Patriot Act: The government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

Amendment VI Right to a speedy and public trial

Patriot Act: The government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

Amendment I Freedom of association

Patriot Act: To assist terror investigation, the government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity.

Amendment VI Right to legal representation

Patriot Act: The government may monitor conversations between attorneys and clients in federal prisons and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

Amendment I Freedom of speech

Patriot Act: The government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

Amendment VI The Right to confront a witness for the Prosecution.

Patriot Act: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them. US citizens (labeled "unlawful combatants") have been held incommunicado and refused attorneys.

Emergency powers or not, what is stated above is in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States.

You know I've read the document about 20 times now at work and twice at school. And I've never seen anything in the document that says Americans or U.S. citizens. So how about providing a link to any and all things you wrote above that includes Americans or U.S. citizens in any way.

 

[Dankdude]

There have been a bunch of cases where the government has abused their Authority with the Patriot act.
The the can use it against Enemy combatants, the can use it against anyone. and have.
If your in law school, ask your professor about it.

 

[ViRedd]

Yes, 420 ... ask your university professor what he/she thinks of the Patriot Act. I mean, if you can't trust a university professor to be fair and balanced politically, who CAN you trust? *lol*

Vi

 

[Dankdude]

Look Vi, not all professors are ultra liberal... Law professors teach law, most with out an agenda. As conservative as 420 is, do you think he would have chosen a liberal university?

 

[420worshipper]

Look Vi, not all professors are ultra liberal... Law professors teach law, most with out an agenda. As conservative as 420 is, do you think he would have chosen a liberal university?

But a lot of professors are ultra liberal. Just as an example, a former Law School Professor that is now a freshman Senator running for President Barack Obama. And dank, I am only conservative on certain issues.

1. The Constitution
2. Crimes like Robbery, Murder, Rape
3. Not giving my tax money to people who come here illegally
4. Drugs that are man-made with chemicals

And I am to the far right of Stalin on this one issue

Child Molestation -- My idea of punishment would be boiling them in oil!

Now I am liberal on these issues

1. Prostitution -- If thats how they want to earn money get them a union
2. Growing & Smoking MJ -- I would like anybody that is religious to deny
that this came from God!!!!
3. People coming legally to this country to make a better life for themselves

And of the four professors that I have had debates with, they are split. Two thinks that it can't be used against any citizen of the U.S. And the other two think that the language is so ambigious that it could be used against citizens to punish for crimes like the MJ federal law breakers (what the DEA calls anybody in a state with a mj law). Now the 2 that says it could not be used, are professors of constitutional law, and the 2 that says it is teach law for students either going into corporate or criminal law.

 

[7xstall]

imo, the emergency powers act is deeply flawed itself. the only consolidation of powers that the fed needs in times of emergency are over those agencies which are federal, and since it already has that power there is not a rational basis for any expansion in times of peace or war.

nationwide martial law is an evil concept fathered by FDR, the socialist dictator who invented the welfare/warfare state.

states should be solicited for their cooperation, not bound by law.

therefore, any enhancement or addition to those fundamentally un-American principals (those in the emergency powers act) is unacceptable.

the state and county governments need not answer to the feds or submit to them in any way to be effective in their sworn duty to local citizens.


the patriot act needs to expire and be removed from the books and all the deterioration that has occurred to the liberty of citizens needs to be restored.

if it is doing any good please provide one example of how it played a role in the arrest of a single terrorist or in the prevention of an attack.

all it is doing is paving the way for further consolidation and expansion of federal power; ie, get in your cage and shut up.






.

 

[medicineman]

I wasn't given that at 18. I was given 250 acres of land worth 175.00 per acre. Thats only 43,000.00 worth of land. Now is it my fault that some idiot with more money than sense came in and made the market price 10,000.00 per acre. I think not. Med I bet you would have sold the land also if you were in that situation. And then you have to remember, that much money puts you in a different tax bracket. The Federal Government took 48% in taxes. Then the state of Georgia took an additional 27%. The did this because it was part of an inheritance from my grandfathers estate. Now take into account over 100,000.00 in money paid to colleges. Now take into account that I had to live and eat. After 10 years and my wifes tuition as well, I had no money. Really, you don't think I've done an honest days work. Funny, I work 18-20 hours a day, 6 days a week. Now I'll admit that I earn a good living. But it just shows ignorance to say that I am an elitist. For your information if I hadn't lucked into an idiot to buy the land. I would probably still be working on a farm.

I find it hard to believe that out of 2.5 million you only had 625,000 left after taxes, but even so, that is exactly 625,000 more than most people start out with @ 18, so your poor boy worked his way through college bullshit holds no water. The premis that you work 18-20 hours a day pretty much sounds like pure unadulterated bullshit also. I'm guessing you work at home, so that would include all hours you are not sleeping, do you include having sex as working, that might eat up 30 seconds or so. Out of this 18-20 hours a day you claim to work, is there anything harder than lifting a pencil or typing on a keyboard, do you actually have a clue what a hard days Physical work feels like, the kind of work that makes your back and every muscle in your body ache. I get a kick out of assholes that claim to have worked hard and never have had a blister on their hands. These are the same assholes that want to stretch the retirement age to 70-75. A hard physical job wears the body out quick, and by sixty, you are ready to hang it up. It is the office geeks that want to extend the retirement age, the pussys that never got their hands dirty, always kissing ass to move up the ladder. I have no respect for office geeks, supervisors or CEOs, all pussys to the core. Give me one of these assholes and put him on my concrete crew and he'll be lying in the mud within minutes.

 

[420worshipper]

I find it hard to believe that out of 2.5 million you only had 625,000 left after taxes, but even so, that is exactly 625,000 more than most people start out with @ 18, so your poor boy worked his way through college bullshit holds no water. The premis that you work 18-20 hours a day pretty much sounds like pure unadulterated bullshit also. I'm guessing you work at home, so that would include all hours you are not sleeping, do you include having sex as working, that might eat up 30 seconds or so. Out of this 18-20 hours a day you claim to work, is there anything harder than lifting a pencil or typing on a keyboard, do you actually have a clue what a hard days Physical work feels like, the kind of work that makes your back and every muscle in your body ache. I get a kick out of assholes that claim to have worked hard and never have had a blister on their hands. These are the same assholes that want to stretch the retirement age to 70-75. A hard physical job wears the body out quick, and by sixty, you are ready to hang it up. It is the office geeks that want to extend the retirement age, the pussys that never got their hands dirty, always kissing ass to move up the ladder. I have no respect for office geeks, supervisors or CEOs, all pussys to the core. Give me one of these assholes and put him on my concrete crew and he'll be lying in the mud within minutes.

Guess you missed the part about growing up on a farm, huh. Until I was 18, I had to work my ass off setting up milkings at 5:00am before I went to school. Then during every summer, along with that I had to work in corn, bean, tomato, and watermelon fields everyday. So, I hate to burst your bubble, but I have had blisters on my hands so bad the skin was coming off. And just because neither me or my father wanted me to do that the rest of my life, I'm suppose to appologize. I still have family that works on my families farm. But the do so because that is what they wanted to do. I don't and went to college so I could get the job that I wanted. And it wasn't staying on a farm. I love how people like you think that because I have a great education, and work at a high paying job that we don't know what hard work is. Maybe if you would get your head out of your ass you would realize that people usually end up with the education and jobs that they want.

And about the retirement age at 70-75, that was started in the '90s under a Democratic White House. It was talked about because of problems with Social Security. That way since the average life span is 77-79 years, then Social Security would only have to pay them from 7-9 years maximum. Which would not tax the entire system too much. But then again, you seem to think I am one of the assholes that subscribe to that theory. And the funny thing is, until another Democratic White House (FDR) started Social Security for retired persons, there was no retirement age. People either worked until they saved enough money to stop working, or they died whichever came first.

So would you rather have a retirement age at 50 years old, while people live to 77-83 years old. Have Social Security pay them for 27-33 years and run out of money in 10 years. Or would you rather have a retirement age of say 62, and only pay for 15-21 years and run out in 26 years. Should we also include people in this country illegally that are trying to get Social Security benefits. In which case you might have about 13-17 years worth of money left in the fund. And before you say that the Social Security fund can't run out, you should look at how much money was in there in 1987 and how much is in there today. You will find that the fund is decreasing at a rate far faster than was first imagined. So lets say for instance that you are 66 years old. And you are going to retire now and then you live until you are 88. That is 22 years that money is being taken out of the fund. So if you started work at 18, then you worked for 48 years. Which means you paid into the fund for the same amount of time. Now I'm not saying you don't deserve to get the money, I'm just asking you to look at the financial rammifications of having a total of 24 million retired people taking from the fund. Then you have to add all of the disabled people in the country taking from the fund. Now add all of the illegals trying to apply to take from the fund. Also look at the unemployment rate is 6% of 257million people in this country. Plus you have to take into consideration that since the '90s when the government needs a slush fund to pay for something the dip into the Social Security funds. So with all of that, do you think there will be enough money in there for your grandkids to retire on when they hit retirement age, whatever that will be. Most of the people that are talking about raising the retirement age are doing so in order for them to make more money before they retire. Because they have bought into the hype from the '90s government that there wouldn't be enough money in the fund to pay them.

 

[medicineman]

Bolderdash. I say eliminate the cap on SS deductions. You pay on every dollar you earn. That would fund SS for quite a while. Of course you come at me with the Illegal SS thing. I am dead against illegals period. Go back to Mexico or points south and apply like everyone else has to. what made them special. You should take all that education and put it to use for humanity. If you are so smart, why haven't you figured out a way to make this a better planet, that is what education should be about, not making your bank account larger, I only have a couple a years of college, but I've kept my eyes open and certainly see room for improvement. If all people were educated to at least my level, they could see clearly how the system works only for the elites and the priveledged and against the working class. You don't need a PHD to see the trees. I myself grew up on a farm in Washington state. Yeah there was a lot of work, but you were always fed and housed. It's when you step into the real world that the burden of providing these things for yourself and others becomes a reality. Then you must adhere to a rigid schedule and take crap from people less intelligent than your self. This was never more obvious than when I was in the military, there were some dumb-ass non-coms and junior officers. The main gist of my disdain for you is the priveledge you were granted at 18. How do you know where you might have been without that gift. You could be right down here with the rest of us picking shit with the chickens instead of looking down on us.

 

[420worshipper]

Bolderdash. I say eliminate the cap on SS deductions. You pay on every dollar you earn. That would fund SS for quite a while. Of course you come at me with the Illegal SS thing. I am dead against illegals period. Go back to Mexico or points south and apply like everyone else has to. what made them special. You should take all that education and put it to use for humanity. If you are so smart, why haven't you figured out a way to make this a better planet, that is what education should be about, not making your bank account larger, I only have a couple a years of college, but I've kept my eyes open and certainly see room for improvement. If all people were educated to at least my level, they could see clearly how the system works only for the elites and the priveledged and against the working class. You don't need a PHD to see the trees. I myself grew up on a farm in Washington state. Yeah there was a lot of work, but you were always fed and housed. It's when you step into the real world that the burden of providing these things for yourself and others becomes a reality. Then you must adhere to a rigid schedule and take crap from people less intelligent than your self. This was never more obvious than when I was in the military, there were some dumb-ass non-coms and junior officers. The main gist of my disdain for you is the priveledge you were granted at 18. How do you know where you might have been without that gift. You could be right down here with the rest of us picking shit with the chickens instead of looking down on us.

I would have took that 250 acres and put it with the rest of the family farm and would continue to work on it this day. And I have never looked down on anybody before that is willing to work for what they have. Thats one thing my grandfather taught me as a kid before he gave me anything. And if you were granted the same priviledge at 18 would you have taken advantage of it?

It would be hard to make this a better planet unless I was to create a government that would rule every nation on this planet. Just being a leader of one nation would make it hard to create a better world. Unless you used the military (mainly nuclear weapons) to make the rest of the world do what you wanted. And if I was president of the United States, I could make this country better. But then that would make it so that more people would want to enter into this country either legally or illegally and try and make their lives better as well. Then again, no matter which party I was in as President, I would have the other party against me. And if I didn't do something for one interest group over another, then I would have problems just like what is happening now and has happened since this place became the United States.

 

[ViRedd]

Look Vi, not all professors are ultra liberal... Law professors teach law, most with out an agenda. As conservative as 420 is, do you think he would have chosen a liberal university?

Unless 420 is attending Hillsdale, or one of the Catholic universities, he's attending a liberal college.

Hey Med ...

Do yourself a big favor and buy the book titled "The Millionaire Nextdoor."


Vi

 

[medicineman]

I would have (took) {Taken} that 250 acres and put it with the rest of the family farm and would continue to work on it {to}this day. {And}I have never looked down on anybody before that is willing to work for what they have. Thats one thing my grandfather taught me as a kid before he gave me anything. {And} if you were granted the same priviledge at 18{,} would you have taken advantage of it? Maybe you should take an English refresher class!
It would be hard to make this a better planet unless I was to create a government that would rule every nation on this planet. Just being a leader of one nation would make it hard to create a better world. Unless you used the military (mainly nuclear weapons) to make the rest of the world do what you wanted. And if I was president of the United States, I could make this country better. But then that would make it so that more people would want to enter into this country either legally or illegally and try and make their lives better as well. Then again, no matter which party I was in as President, I would have the other party against me. And if I didn't do something for one interest group over another, then I would have problems just like what is happening now and has happened since this place became the United States.

How about just doing the right thing?
Are you having delusions of granduer? Anyway this is a useless arguement, you are a rich guy and I'm not. we'll never achieve a common ground as you see me as wanting your riches, and I could care less. I just want you to know that you got a head start that 99.9% of people never get. Don't forget the common people.

 

[420worshipper]

How about just doing the right thing?
Are you having delusions of granduer? Anyway this is a useless arguement, you are a rich guy and I'm not. we'll never achieve a common ground as you see me as wanting your riches, and I could care less. I just want you to know that you got a head start that 99.9% of people never get. Don't forget the common people.

What would the right thing be?

For your information making more money than somebody does not make them rich. Also, I have never once claimed that you wanted any money that I have or currently make.

With a country that has 370 billionaires and about 53,000 millionaires, I would not say that I had a head start over 99.9% of the people.

So med, What is your definiton of "common people"?

 

[medicineman]

What would the right thing be? Taking care of the citizens with a comprehensive social structure that included all citizens, with health care, providing a college education for everyone that wanted it, trade schools for those that didn't, keeping Mfgr. jobs in country, instituting trade laws that benefited American workers not corporations. taking charge of the deficit and spanking Chinas runaway control of our national debt for starters. There is plenty more that needs to be done, as I've already said, take off the caps on SS, everyone pays on every penny earned.

For your information making more money than somebody does not make them rich. Also, I have never once claimed that you wanted any money that I have or currently make.

With a country that has 370 billionaires and about 53,000 millionaires, I would not say that I had a head start over 99.9% of the people. Do the math: 300 Million people Divided by 53,370=0.0001779, actually less than .1% Do you know the odds of becomming a millionaire? I guess according to your figures it's 0.0001779, or 9771000-1 I'm not a math wizard, but I know it's pretty hard, starting from zero.

So med, What is your definiton of "common people"?

Not millionaires or rich pricks. People that work long and hard just to feed and house their families with not a penny in the bank, in fact most common folk these days are burried in debt.