What's wrong with socialism?

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
No work is degrading, this is the pride thing I was talking about. Work=profit

No work is degrading? Tell that to a stripper who has to deal with touchy-feely men all day long.

Aren't the 7 deadly sins what make this world great? LOL, seriously, make up your mind.

You have no real position. Your position is simply opposite of whatever I say, regardless of whether you contradict yourself or not.

So, which is it? Is pride BAD, or is it something that makes the world great?
 

Hemlock

Well-Known Member
LABOUR = socialism...Here what some folk that have lived under socialism for the last 12 years think....



LABOUR voters let down by the Government told The Sun yesterday why they were turning their back on the Party.


Our website and text service was swamped by readers backing our decision to dump PM Gordon Brown and support David Cameron's Conservatives instead.

Stand ... our front page



Those backing our stand include victims of crime, families of Our Boys serving on the front-line in Afghanistan and those left devastated after losing loved ones to NHS hospital superbugs like MRSA.

But mostly it was just the ordinary man and woman in the street saying they thought the Reds had blown it too - and after 12 long years of failure and disappointment, it was finally time for a change.

Click on the images above right as they have their say...



OUR poll of Sun readers shows the Conservatives have a massive lead. Of 23,794 who had taken part last night, 59 per cent said they would vote Tory in the election.

doob socialism is a non starter. It has died everywhere it took root. It snot natural. Democracy is something that makes sence to everyone. Majority rules and it gets no fairer than that. U think the govt should give you a job. I think you should have to compete for that jub. U think the govt should support you. I think u should support yourself. Oh and healthcare is a privilage not a right. But you do have the right to go out get a job and buy whatever kind of insurance you need. You can't do that in socialist society.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
LABOUR = socialism...Here what some folk that have lived under socialism for the last 12 years think....



LABOUR voters let down by the Government told The Sun yesterday why they were turning their back on the Party.


Our website and text service was swamped by readers backing our decision to dump PM Gordon Brown and support David Cameron's Conservatives instead.

Stand ... our front page



Those backing our stand include victims of crime, families of Our Boys serving on the front-line in Afghanistan and those left devastated after losing loved ones to NHS hospital superbugs like MRSA.

But mostly it was just the ordinary man and woman in the street saying they thought the Reds had blown it too - and after 12 long years of failure and disappointment, it was finally time for a change.

Click on the images above right as they have their say...



OUR poll of Sun readers shows the Conservatives have a massive lead. Of 23,794 who had taken part last night, 59 per cent said they would vote Tory in the election.

doob socialism is a non starter. It has died everywhere it took root. It snot natural. Democracy is something that makes sence to everyone. Majority rules and it gets no fairer than that. U think the govt should give you a job. I think you should have to compete for that jub. U think the govt should support you. I think u should support yourself. Oh and healthcare is a privilage not a right. But you do have the right to go out get a job and buy whatever kind of insurance you need. You can't do that in socialist society.
You're terribly confused, I see.

Democracy and socialism are not mutually exclusive. The Democratic Socialist party in the US believes we are actually lacking in the democracy aspect (which we are). They advocate direct public participation in the legislative process and diminishing the class divide (which is wider in the US than any other country, mind you).

It isn't about giving control of the people to the government, it's about restoring the PEOPLE'S control of the government (something our founding fathers envisioned for us, that we've somehow lost along the way).

Socialism is not confined to the Marxist-Leninist theory of government. It exists also as a social philosophy, which is vastly different than its historical political implementation as a stepping stone to communism.
 

Hemlock

Well-Known Member
You're terribly confused, I see.

Democracy and socialism are not mutually exclusive. The Democratic Socialist party in the US believes we are actually lacking in the democracy aspect (which we are). They advocate direct public participation in the legislative process and diminishing the class divide (which is wider in the US than any other country, mind you).
This statement is wrong.

It isn't about giving control of the people to the government, it's about restoring the PEOPLE'S control of the government (something our founding fathers envisioned for us, that we've somehow lost along the way). (What??? Our founding father supported socialism)

Socialism is not confined to the Marxist-Leninist theory of government. It exists also as a social philosophy, which is vastly different than its historical political implementation as a stepping stone to communism.
Well you said it yourself a stepping stone for communism

On top of that just because the form of socialism that you describe is not the same form that is in my post they are both socialism and the folks who that have been under that form of govt/culture want it to go away.

Oh and your the one whos very confused..But go live in Europe. Put your money where you mouth is. Don't try to drag us to your private hell because you thinks thats good for us. Do what right for you. Don't worry about wanting others to walk down the slippery slope with you. If it is a truely good idea the American public will not need to be lead or kicked into socialism..
 

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
LABOUR = socialism...Here what some folk that have lived under socialism for the last 12 years think....



LABOUR voters let down by the Government told The Sun yesterday why they were turning their back on the Party.


Our website and text service was swamped by readers backing our decision to dump PM Gordon Brown and support David Cameron's Conservatives instead.

Stand ... our front page



Those backing our stand include victims of crime, families of Our Boys serving on the front-line in Afghanistan and those left devastated after losing loved ones to NHS hospital superbugs like MRSA.

But mostly it was just the ordinary man and woman in the street saying they thought the Reds had blown it too - and after 12 long years of failure and disappointment, it was finally time for a change.

Click on the images above right as they have their say...



OUR poll of Sun readers shows the Conservatives have a massive lead. Of 23,794 who had taken part last night, 59 per cent said they would vote Tory in the election.

doob socialism is a non starter. It has died everywhere it took root. It snot natural. Democracy is something that makes sence to everyone. Majority rules and it gets no fairer than that. U think the govt should give you a job. I think you should have to compete for that jub. U think the govt should support you. I think u should support yourself. Oh and healthcare is a privilage not a right. But you do have the right to go out get a job and buy whatever kind of insurance you need. You can't do that in socialist society.
"Majority Rules" should not be confused with Democracy. The majority may choose to elect a dictator, or support ethnic cleansing, but the US constitution is the foundation of Democracy in the US, not the majority.

No system is perfect, but in a capitalistic society you are able to pull yourself up by your own boot straps, rather than becoming dependant on a government bureaucracy for your basic needs. Prison also offers 3 meals a day, and free health.

Socialism is spreading - from Europe to the US, as people have become disillusioned with capitalism, but be careful what you wish for. The pendulum may swing from bad to worse, and it's easier to go from capitalism to socialism, than for the people to regain power from a socialist government.

Read more about what's going on in Europe right now here: Europe’s Socialists Suffering Even in Downturn
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Well you said it yourself a stepping stone for communism

On top of that just because the form of socialism that you describe is not the same form that is in my post they are both socialism and the folks who that have been under that form of govt want it to go away.

Oh and your the one whos very confused..But go live in Europe. Put your money where you mouth is. Don't try to drag us to your private hell because you thinks thats good for us. Do what right for you. Don't worry about wanting others to walk down the slippery slope with you. If it is a truely good idea the American public will not need to be lead or kicked into socialism..


natrone what unit in the Marine Corps were you with. what was your mos?
Your ability to skim a post and grab the most provocative statements and use them at your whim to prove your argument is less-than-impressive.

What I said was, historically, the political theory of socialism (Marxist-Leninist socialism) has been recognized as a stepping stone to communism.

Socialism as a social philosophy is vastly different than Socialism as a form of government following Marxist-Leninist theories.

Why is that so hard to understand? It's pretty straightforward.
 

Hemlock

Well-Known Member
Your ability to skim a post and grab the most provocative statements and use them at your whim to prove your argument is less-than-impressive.

What I said was, historically, the political theory of socialism (Marxist-Leninist socialism) has been recognized as a stepping stone to communism.

Socialism as a social philosophy is vastly different than Socialism as a form of government following Marxist-Leninist theories.

Why is that so hard to understand? It's pretty straightforward.
Because its bullshit. If it were so easy everyone would understand but it goes against the grain.
Go for it man go to Europe Live it,,,then come tell us how great it,,,, ISN'T...LOL

I'll say it one more time.
The folks that have lived under your cultural/social system for the last 12 years want nothing more to do with it. Not sure why u don't understand
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
"Majority Rules" should not be confused with Democracy. The majority may choose to elect a dictator, or support ethnic cleansing, but the US constitution is the foundation of Democracy in the US, not the majority.

No system is perfect, but in a capitalistic society you are able to pull yourself up by your own boot straps, rather than becoming dependant on a government bureaucracy for your basic needs. Prison also offers 3 meals a day, and free health.

Socialism is spreading - from Europe to the US, as people have become disillusioned with capitalism, but be careful what you wish for. The pendulum may swing from bad to worse, and it's easier to go from capitalism to socialism, than for the people to regain power from a socialist government.

Read more about what's going on in Europe right now here: Europe’s Socialists Suffering Even in Downturn
I rather enjoyed that reading, GreenCross. I don't think that it in any way demonizes socialism. Far from it, considering the last statement that it would be "bad news" if socialism died in Europe.

Capitalism and socialism depend on one another, in a democratic society, to balance out the inequalities of each system independently. A "pure" system of either would not be beneficial to the "average" person, so we try to implement both in a way that IS beneficial, while still preserving democracy in some form or another.

In other words, we can have our cake (socialism) and eat it (capitalism), too!

If we had pure capitalism here in the US, we'd all be screwed. If we had pure socialism, we'd all be screwed.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Because its bullshit. If it were so easy everyone would understand but it goes against the grain.
Go for it man go to Europe Live it,,,then come tell us how great it,,,, ISN'T...LOL

I'll say it one more time.
The folks that have lived under your cultural/social system for the last 12 years want nothing more to do with it. Not sure why u don't understand

I'm not sure what this cultural/social system is that you're talking about. Can you please explain? I am unaware of any such system being implemented within the last 12 years in the US.

No, it isn't bullshit. It's just that most people can't get it through their thick skulls that Marxist-Leninist theory is NOT the only form of socialism, because we've been "indoctrinated" to believe that socialism must always be based on these theories and must always lead to communism.

It doesn't. We have many socialist programs here in the US, and they have not led us to communism, have they? No. Why not? Because we have 2 political parties with radically different ideals. One supports capitalism and the other counteracts the effects of that capitalism. These 2 parties lend balance to one another, just as capitalism and socialism do.
 

Green Cross

Well-Known Member
I rather enjoyed that reading, GreenCross. I don't think that it in any way demonizes socialism. Far from it, considering the last statement that it would be "bad news" if socialism died in Europe.

Capitalism and socialism depend on one another, in a democratic society, to balance out the inequalities of each system independently. A "pure" system of either would not be beneficial to the "average" person, so we try to implement both in a way that IS beneficial, while still preserving democracy in some form or another.

In other words, we can have our cake (socialism) and eat it (capitalism), too!

If we had pure capitalism here in the US, we'd all be screwed. If we had pure socialism, we'd all be screwed.
My biggest problems with socialism is that it puts too much power into the hands of government, and that government is not good at solving problems, keeping promises, or cutting costs. Government is rather good at oppressing freedoms, wasting money, and corruption though.

Socialism has been tried in many places, and it has failed, or been defeated.

The same will happen here, but it will be those who relied on government... who will be hurt most, when the pendulum finally swings back again... maybe this will happen on a global scale. Who knows?

You still have a few fringe socialists hoping for a return of the old ways, because these poor misguided folks don't know - and were never taught - the first thing about how to take care of themselves. They are forever slaves to the state; unable to break those chains.
 

Hemlock

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what this cultural/social system is that you're talking about. Can you please explain? I am unaware of any such system being implemented within the last 12 years in the US. Oh my in the UK and the balance of Europe buddy..

No, it isn't bullshit. It's just that most people can't get it through their thick skulls
So EVERYONE else is wrong and your right..Oh OK I get it..LOL

that Marxist-Leninist theory is NOT the only form of socialism, because we've been "indoctrinated" to believe that socialism must always be based on these theories and must always lead to communism.

It doesn't. We have many socialist programs here in the US, and they have not led us to communism, have they? No. Why not? Because we have 2 political parties with radically different ideals. One supports capitalism and the other counteracts the effects of that capitalism. These 2 parties lend balance to one another, just as capitalism and socialism do.

Then go live it and tell me about it. Because you haven't so your opinion is of this utopia state that doesn't exist. Come out of the dark
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Then go live it and tell me about it. Because you haven't so your opinion is of this utopia state that doesn't exist. Come out of the dark
EVERYONE is not of the belief that ALL socialism is inherently "bad", as you are - so, NO, EVERYONE else is not wrong. In this case, it's just you. I'm not saying that to pick on you, you have obviously made up your mind that ALL socialism is bad while refusing to even consider that "socialism" doesn't always mean what YOU seem to think it means.

The problems in these European countries you keep throwing around have nothing to do with the "socialism" that you're so adamantly opposed to. These countries are not even considered to BE "socialist states" in that respect. Sure, they have universal health care and "labor" parties (we have had and continue to have these "socialist" political parties, too, by the way), but we, too, have programs that are based on a socialist philosophy of "redistribution of wealth" "social justice", etc.

Ask the people of the UK if they are happy with their "socialized" medicine and they will overwhelmingly agree that they would NOT support a change to a US-style "capitalist" health care system. Ask the French if they enjoy their guaranteed vacation time, child care for working mothers, and other "socialist" programs that they, THE PEOPLE, have fought for and continue to fight to protect. These are places where the PEOPLE have power over the government. Why does that frighten you so badly? It's what the US was envisioned to be, too! So far, we've allowed ourselves to become so complacent that the government does NOT fear us. They have, in a sense, become dictators because they know we cannot stop them.

Now look at US, where in the past decade or so we have had our constitutional rights stepped on more times than I can count, and the government KNOWS they can continue to get away with it.

If anyone needs to wake up, it's YOU. You've been brainwashed into perpetuating a system that is exactly the same as what you say you oppose.

Edit: Here's a link with some information that may help you understand what I'm trying to say. It is not pro-socialism or pro-capitalism, it is merely an analysis of the terms and an explanation of generally accepted meanings and usage.

http://www.nolanchart.com/article4246.html
 

sunshine17542

Well-Known Member
No work is degrading? Tell that to a stripper who has to deal with touchy-feely men all day long.

Aren't the 7 deadly sins what make this world great? LOL, seriously, make up your mind.

You have no real position. Your position is simply opposite of whatever I say, regardless of whether you contradict yourself or not.

So, which is it? Is pride BAD, or is it something that makes the world great?
Do you believe in God?
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Do you believe in God?

Do you mean, do I believe in the christian god? or do I believe in any god?

How do my personal beliefs relate to this conversation? You didn't answer my question. Are the seven deadly sins BAD, or are they what make the world great?
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
EVERYONE is not of the belief that ALL socialism is inherently "bad", as you are - so, NO, EVERYONE else is not wrong. In this case, it's just you. I'm not saying that to pick on you, you have obviously made up your mind that ALL socialism is bad while refusing to even consider that "socialism" doesn't always mean what YOU seem to think it means.

The problems in these European countries you keep throwing around have nothing to do with the "socialism" that you're so adamantly opposed to. These countries are not even considered to BE "socialist states" in that respect. Sure, they have universal health care and "labor" parties (we have had and continue to have these "socialist" political parties, too, by the way), but we, too, have programs that are based on a socialist philosophy of "redistribution of wealth" "social justice", etc.

Ask the people of the UK if they are happy with their "socialized" medicine and they will overwhelmingly agree that they would NOT support a change to a US-style "capitalist" health care system. Ask the French if they enjoy their guaranteed vacation time, child care for working mothers, and other "socialist" programs that they, THE PEOPLE, have fought for and continue to fight to protect. These are places where the PEOPLE have power over the government. Why does that frighten you so badly? It's what the US was envisioned to be, too! So far, we've allowed ourselves to become so complacent that the government does NOT fear us. They have, in a sense, become dictators because they know we cannot stop them.

Now look at US, where in the past decade or so we have had our constitutional rights stepped on more times than I can count, and the government KNOWS they can continue to get away with it.

If anyone needs to wake up, it's YOU. You've been brainwashed into perpetuating a system that is exactly the same as what you say you oppose.

Edit: Here's a link with some information that may help you understand what I'm trying to say. It is not pro-socialism or pro-capitalism, it is merely an analysis of the terms and an explanation of generally accepted meanings and usage.

http://www.nolanchart.com/article4246.html
Doob, aside from Left wing blogs, where did you learn all this? Do you have a degree in political science? Have you read any books on this subject? How do you know how people in other countries feel about their socialized medicine? From what I hear, people from those countries come here for medical treatment they can't get in their country. What about all the stories of people waiting months for treatment? You keep talking about France - did you know they have no freedom of speech in France? Are you OK with that?

Lastly, have a look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44NCvNDLfc&feature=player_embedded
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
Do you mean, do I believe in the christian god? or do I believe in any god?

How do my personal beliefs relate to this conversation? You didn't answer my question. Are the seven deadly sins BAD, or are they what make the world great?
There is no such thing as a "Christian God." Jews, Muslims and Christians of all types all believe in roughly the same definition of God - a monotheistic God.

What a highly educated person such as yourself should have said was a monotheistic God.
 

doobnVA

Well-Known Member
Doob, aside from Left wing blogs, where did you learn all this? Do you have a degree in political science? Have you read any books on this subject? How do you know how people in other countries feel about their socialized medicine? From what I hear, people from those countries come here for medical treatment they can't get in their country. What about all the stories of people waiting months for treatment? You keep talking about France - did you know they have no freedom of speech in France? Are you OK with that?

Lastly, have a look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G44NCvNDLfc&feature=player_embedded
If you notice the link I just posted, it isn't from a "left wing" blog. It's written by a Libertarian, in fact. No, I don't have my degree yet, but I'm more than halfway there. I'm thinking I'll do my master's in Public Administration. I know what goes on in other countries because I have friends in other countries whom I have known for years, trust implicitly, and speak to often. Our media reports are not an accurate representation of what really goes on in the world outside our borders.

No free speech in France? that's absurd. They do prohibit hate speech and more specifically, denial of the holocaust, but they have the same essential right of free speech that we do, only they exercise theirs more.


People who come here for medical treatment either a) have a lot of money or b) are paid for by THEIR OWN government medical coverage. The fact that wealthy people from other nations come here for health care says nothing about the health care situation of OUR OWN citizens, many of whom can't afford even the most basic care.
 

sunshine17542

Well-Known Member
Do you mean, do I believe in the christian god? or do I believe in any god?

How do my personal beliefs relate to this conversation? You didn't answer my question. Are the seven deadly sins BAD, or are they what make the world great?
You didn't answer my question either. I mean God.
 

RickWhite

Well-Known Member
If you notice the link I just posted, it isn't from a "left wing" blog. It's written by a Libertarian, in fact. No, I don't have my degree yet, but I'm more than halfway there. I'm thinking I'll do my master's in Public Administration. I know what goes on in other countries because I have friends in other countries whom I have known for years, trust implicitly, and speak to often. Our media reports are not an accurate representation of what really goes on in the world outside our borders.

No free speech in France? that's absurd. They do prohibit hate speech and more specifically, denial of the holocaust, but they have the same essential right of free speech that we do, only they exercise theirs more.


People who come here for medical treatment either a) have a lot of money or b) are paid for by THEIR OWN government medical coverage. The fact that wealthy people from other nations come here for health care says nothing about the health care situation of OUR OWN citizens, many of whom can't afford even the most basic care.
I see, so your source of information is your friends who by nature of being your friends probably have similar ideas to yours - most of the time this is the case.

Do you have more credible sources of information? I am not an expert in political science but everything I can find on the subject suggests that Socialism is a way-point between Capitalism and Communism and that the vast majority of formerly Socialist countries are turning toward Capitalism given the world wide failure of the former.

On a more general note, do you understand that Socialism is really a euphemism for collective theft? Socialist programs are income redistribution by definition, they take what one man has earned away from him and give it to another. This is morally wrong.

Now I have no problem with taxation for the purpose of infrastructure we all use and I would even be willing to accept some modest forms of Government assistance, but when we get to the point where hard working people are expected to pay the way for lazy criminals I think that is going too far.

In America we already pay the way for lazy crack heads and it disgusts me. To add insult to injury, many of the people earning the money have to take drug tests to keep their job. They have to take drug tests to earn the money but the people who receive the money don't have to take drug tests to get it. Is that your idea of fairness?
 
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