Taxes, are there other ways?

[Rob Roy]

ya know, we have two options.
1. raise taxes and pay the debt off.
2. the government could hold a debt moratorium against the banks.

i choose the debt moratorium...

A debt moratorium against some banks would effectively be legalizing theft. Legal theft is the province of government and not for common folk.

There are other choices...shrink the size of government, whack all budgets send the fat asses home would be a good start. If you "raise taxes" what is the incentive for "them" to ever stop wasting money?

The government could hold a moratorium on creating money out of thin air and kill the Federal Reserve, which has caused most of the inflation and drop in the value of the dollar.

 

[Dfunk]

A post on page 2 of this thread by NoDrama explains very clearly what your income taxes pay for & it's not what most people think. I have to say this about taxes, government, & other foolish unimportant things...If you don't want to pay taxes then don't-it's a choice-remember you're the one who fills out the tax forms agreeing to pay-noone makes you. Businesses are the same as well-they get state benefits & crap for getting you to comply. Look folks it's quite simple how it all works...it's like monopoly-everyone participates but not everyone can be the banker, not everyone can own hotels, not everyone can...you get the point hopefully. I find it amusing how people constantly complain about a system that they voted for, that they participate in every day, that they say they can't do without. News Flasheople have lived outside of government control for thousands of years & done fine...government is like it is because we asked for it. The next time you want to protest consider that.

 

[laserbrn]

A post on page 2 of this thread by NoDrama explains very clearly what your income taxes pay for & it's not what most people think. I have to say this about taxes, government, & other foolish unimportant things...If you don't want to pay taxes then don't-it's a choice-remember you're the one who fills out the tax forms agreeing to pay-noone makes you. Businesses are the same as well-they get state benefits & crap for getting you to comply. Look folks it's quite simple how it all works...it's like monopoly-everyone participates but not everyone can be the banker, not everyone can own hotels, not everyone can...you get the point hopefully. I find it amusing how people constantly complain about a system that they voted for, that they participate in every day, that they say they can't do without. News Flasheople have lived outside of government control for thousands of years & done fine...government is like it is because we asked for it. The next time you want to protest consider that.

I'm not sure what country you live in, but in the United States, it's madatory to pay income tax for all income earned. I don't 'voluntarily' fill out the form and pay the taxes. I fill it out because the PROSECUTE those that don't as criminals.

Government is necessary, but THIS government and THIS system were designed to differ from the others in this CRUCIAL regard.

 

[overgrowem]

Doob: Communism:you pay no taxes,you are just paid less. Anarchy:you pay no taxes at all.Moneterism(our current system) you print the money to cover your bills.

 

[overgrowem]

Just watched High Times on Fox Business. These people are in the weeds(no pun).The bleach blond stated smoking cannibis causes cancer .I don't believe this is fact.Anyone know how to correct this falsehod.

 

[doobnVA]

Just watched High Times on Fox Business. These people are in the weeds(no pun).The bleach blond stated smoking cannibis causes cancer .I don't believe this is fact.Anyone know how to correct this falsehod.

Fox will never issue a retraction or even admit they were wrong about something. They don't have to tell the truth.

You can send an email to newswatch@foxnews.com but I doubt it will do any good.

 

[DubsFan]

Fox will never issue a retraction or even admit they were wrong about something. They don't have to tell the truth.

You can send an email to newswatch@foxnews.com but I doubt it will do any good.

When you rule the world of cable news they don't have to. I think there worst show has more ratings then a days of worth of viewers anywhere else. Fox Business is a different channel. But now it's soaring too.

I really feel CNBC and MSNBC are going to be toast in the next 5 years.

Fox has way hotter chicks too. That matters you know.

 

[ilkhan]

Cut the military budget to 420 billion.
That is still 5 times that of China, OK.
Bring everyone home to US Soil.

Start cutting Depts.
The Dept of Education (Fails anyway)
The Dept. of Homeland Security. (Huge, expensive, bureaucratic, nightmare creates more problems then it solves)
Disband the BATF, DEA, shrink the FBI and Roll it all into the Federal Marshalls service. (real streamlined security)
End the Federal War on Drugs.

That would save us about a trillion bucks right there.

We MUST live within our means.

 

[NoDrama]

Fox will never issue a retraction or even admit they were wrong about something. They don't have to tell the truth.

You can send an email to newswatch@foxnews.com but I doubt it will do any good.

Fox Apologizes and issues retractions all the time, I have personally see Bill O'Reilly on 3 different occasions apologize or say he fucked up. And I don't even watch TV. If its happening that often in passing i can't imagine how much it would happen if I actually watched.

 

[NoDrama]

Cut the military budget to 420 billion.
That is still 5 times that of China, OK.
Bring everyone home to US Soil.

Start cutting Depts.
The Dept of Education (Fails anyway)
The Dept. of Homeland Security. (Huge, expensive, bureaucratic, nightmare creates more problems then it solves)
Disband the BATF, DEA, shrink the FBI and Roll it all into the Federal Marshalls service. (real streamlined security)
End the Federal War on Drugs.

That would save us about a trillion bucks right there.

We MUST live within our means.

The PEOPLE must live within their means, the government can just do as they please.

 

[DubsFan]

Cut the military budget to 420 billion.
That is still 5 times that of China, OK.
Bring everyone home to US Soil.

Start cutting Depts.
The Dept of Education (Fails anyway)
The Dept. of Homeland Security. (Huge, expensive, bureaucratic, nightmare creates more problems then it solves)
Disband the BATF, DEA, shrink the FBI and Roll it all into the Federal Marshalls service. (real streamlined security)
End the Federal War on Drugs.

That would save us about a trillion bucks right there.

We MUST live within our means.

Dude you know what. There is some sence in this. Defense spending to me should go into certain things. I live in SD. When you see 5 air craft carriers at port at one time. You realize this alone could take over a continent when loaded with jets and some serious fucking artillery. Ok one was a museum The USS Midway. But we had four full of scafolding getting paint and a tune up "flip this aircraft carrier" could be a killer show.

The war on drugs should end for on a few substances for sure. A 30% reduction in staff, raids, criminals that just get high with no violence...etc. Dude those two cuts plus a few others could save some serious scratch.

Edit: many times at 4am 20nm off shore on my fishing boat (heading out for tuna, dorado, yellow tail) Ch. 16 lets us a know a sub is about to break surface and we better be 500m away. To me, that's not far enough away. Seeing a sub pop up knowing they can hear everything we say makes you realize the bad to the ass shit we have. You think space is the big unkown. Aircraft carriers can't hide (yet) but subs underwater...no one knows what we really have. It's more than I can imagine and I'm around it all day. San Diego County is either the safest place in the world or the first to be attacked. Shit we train seals here too. This place is one big fucking gun.

The subs guys...you've never seen anthing like it. Well, an aircraft carrier full of some big dick fighter jets will make your jaw drop. I don't even own a gun and it's impressive.

Enough rambling. It's awesome to see though.

 

[Dfunk]

A response to laserbrn...there is no law stating that income taxes must be paid...call the IRS & ask them to provide you with a copy of the document stating that income taxes are mandatory by law-I promise you they won't. You may fill out that paperwork because your job requires you to do so if you want to work or maybe the IRS scares you but I assure you it's not mandatory. Income taxes are actually unconstitutional if you understand that. Government is necessary in YOUR opinion...mine differs. I do live in the Corporation States of America by the way & you my friend are merely an employee of the corporation of whatever state you live. I recommend you invest some time into research on laws,statues, & generally how the system works. I would also like to finish by saying that I'm not attempting to insult you, fight a fight, or say I'm right but these are things I've come to discoverthrough my research. Research things for yourself & see what you come up with...remember-ALWAYS THINK FOR YOURSELF!

 

[laserbrn]

A response to laserbrn...there is no law stating that income taxes must be paid...call the IRS & ask them to provide you with a copy of the document stating that income taxes are mandatory by law-I promise you they won't. You may fill out that paperwork because your job requires you to do so if you want to work or maybe the IRS scares you but I assure you it's not mandatory. Income taxes are actually unconstitutional if you understand that. Government is necessary in YOUR opinion...mine differs. I do live in the Corporation States of America by the way & you my friend are merely an employee of the corporation of whatever state you live. I recommend you invest some time into research on laws,statues, & generally how the system works. I would also like to finish by saying that I'm not attempting to insult you, fight a fight, or say I'm right but these are things I've come to discoverthrough my research. Research things for yourself & see what you come up with...remember-ALWAYS THINK FOR YOURSELF!

I'm not trying to get into an argument with you, but if I make income and don't pay taxes, it's a crime. Tax evasion isn't a joke and there are federal laws mandating the payment of taxes.

Failure to file a return will lead to an investigation and ultimately criminal charges being filed. You can choose not to pay taxes by either A) leaving the country, B) Breaking the law or c) refusing to make income.

I don't know what point you are trying to make or where you get your information, but if you are going to make an assertion such as "In the US you don't have to pay taxes" you're going to need to back that up a bit.

Information about Tax Evasion and Statutes of Limitation:

http://definitions.uslegal.com/t/tax-evasion/

I don't know how you can think you won't be tried for Federal Tax Evasion and that everybody else "voluntarily" pays taxes. It's an asinine assertion and until you can come up with something to back up your statement, I'll disregard it as malarky. I'll be waiting though....so will all of the people who've been jailed and tried for tax evasion, not to exclude Al Capone.

 

[Dfunk]

I think your missing the point but that o.k. Perhaps someone else could understand what I'm saying because I don't have the energy to fully explain everything right now.

We're not arguing in my opinion just talking.

P.S. - I never said "In the US you don't have to pay taxes" - I said you have a choice...there may be consquences but there is ALWAYS a choice.

 

[laserbrn]

I think your missing the point but that o.k. Perhaps someone else could understand what I'm saying because I don't have the energy to fully explain everything right now.

We're not arguing in my opinion just talking.

P.S. - I never said "In the US you don't have to pay taxes" - I said you have a choice...there may be consquences but there is ALWAYS a choice.

Ok guy. You're right, there's ALWAYS a choice. You can CHOOSE to be a criminal and you can CHOOSE to spend your days in jail. But you said there WASN'T laws stating that you needed to pay taxes. There clearly are.

I guess you could CHOOSE to sell drugs and not report your earnings, but you'll likely be choosing jail time.

 

[ancap]

Radiate, thank you for presenting your questions and objections in a curious manner. I think this thread has a really constructive tone (more so in the beginning).

Great posts from Rob Roy, undertheice, laserbrn and nodrama!

First I would say that the burden of proof for alternatives needs to be shifted from the free marketeers to the statists. They need to prove how their system is sustainable, which it is not.

-Federal deficit is 1.8 trillion dollars
-Federal debt is $545,668 per household
-Debt to GDP ratio from 125% in 1952 to 330% in 2008

You would have to raise taxes by 40% to cover debts, which is economically not feasible. If you can't raise taxes, what intrenched programs will you cut to make this system sustainable? Prove to me how your system can work. It is YOUR ship that is sinking, not ours.

(references available if desired)

 

[ancap]

This argument ignores the fact that everyone uses a government service in some form or fashion, and that those services are payed for by taxes. Thusly, use of these services without paying taxes is theft, or to equate it to ancaps analogy, it would be like refusing to pay your gym membership and showing up the next day and hopping on the treadmill.

I think Rob Roy touched on this, but I'd like to answer in the form of a question...

Is it ethical for a group of people to forcefully take over and monopolize every social service, and then force you to pay to use those essential services in the absense of choice and competition? Of course we need to use the roads! Of course it's not ethical to use someone's service without paying for it, but the creation of a violent monopoly was the first transgression here. Don't blame the victim.

If this doesn't address your concern sufficiently, please let me know.

 

[Rob Roy]

I think Rob Roy touched on this, but I'd like to answer in the form of a question...

Is it ethical for a group of people to forcefully take over and monopolize every social service, and then force you to pay to use those essential services in the absense of choice and competition? Of course we need to use the roads! Of course it's not ethical to use someone's service without paying for it, but the creation of a violent monopoly was the first transgression here. Don't blame the victim.

If this doesn't address your concern sufficiently, please let me know.

I've been asking variations of that question here for awhile. Don't get alot of answers either So c'mon people, Ancap has posed an ethical question, any takers?

 

[DubsFan]

The City of San Diego charges you for trash service even if you don't use it. That's so wrong I can't even define it.

Many socialists want to know why we can't put the government in charge of other things like health care and what not. Their argument is that the Fire dept, police etc are government ran so why not everything else. The answer is so simple. Government agencies are not supposed to operate at a profit or a deficit. The city of SD is constantly putting private contractors in charge of bus repair, trash and many other services. The mayor says this "I'm here to run a city for 1.2m people and not to provide jobs for 10,000 really good jobs." What he means is private companies make profits, pay taxes spend those profits. There is no real boss or owner at these city departments and they certainly have no skin in the game when the gov't nipple is the financier. Private industry can have losses but strives for profit. Those profits get spent. Govt entities do not make profits or pay any taxes.

I could spend more time on this...I've missed many points I want to make but that's the basics. Private industry pursues profits and those dollars enter the system. Publicly ran versions just suck up money...no profits and no investing. Just overpriced overpaid BS and money spent that never goes back into the economy. Just one big vacuum.

 

[Rob Roy]

Well Ancap....guess that rush to answer your question didn't happen. The reason why? They can't answer it, it would expose the errors in their beliefs. 'Course you already know that.

Thanks for intelligently pointing out the gun in the room though. Maybe some will comprehend and actually shed their cognitive dissonance. Your posts are very insightful, good work!