A question??????

[hanimmal]

I bet you cannot answer my questions directly. I bet you will either ignore me, insult me or shift the questions around.

Right, I bet that I ignore you, but also I may shift questions around.

And as far as insult, only time I do is when people continue to do the same, just because in one thread someone is not attacking you, does not mean your not attacked in several others.

Hannimal - Does your beloved government rely upon voluntary or involuntary participation to exist?

Voluntary. We did this a year ago or so, but here it is again. If you wish to leave the grid, you can. If you wish to not use anything paid for by others, feel free I am sure you can find a very remote piece of land and build a hut there. I am sure there is room in nevada, or a national forest somewhere.

I do not object to you and others having your government and wouldn't think of FORCING you into my beliefs.
Your government and apparently you, do not offer me the same courtesy? Why?

Why do you support an institution that relies upon force to make me a subject of your government? What is it that makes you feel that the use of force is just?

I have no clue what all of your 'beliefs' are, so am unsure how the government is 'forcing' itself into them. But lets say it is anything.

Do you benefit from government spending, of course you do. What would your salary be without using any of the things we provide as a society? Nothing, because the only things you would be able to produce would never get somewhere that people would be able to purchase, and if they did, what use would money be to you? So with the fact that you use government supplied roads, internet, safety regulations, having access to clean water, on and on everyday, you should realize that you would not be able to work without them, and so that would make sense you are making far more than you would without that structure.

So let's see, which sounds better, living in a hut in the woods, trading with farmers for beads, or living in society where your standard of living is far better and having some of that raise in the standard of living to contribute to the structure you take advantage of everyday?

I pick option two. And there has never been a gun to my head to force me to make this decision.

 

[Rob Roy]

Your Government will allow me NOT to participate without initiating some kind of force upon me? When did this happen?
It NEVER happened. It ISN'T voluntary.

Your focusing on what you perceive the "benefits" of government to be are shifting the question. Shouldn't I decide which benefits I want and pay for them accordingly? Isn't that the definition of freedom, voluntary etc.?

 

[hanimmal]

How would that work? You decide what things you will use? How would we be told we did not pay for this service so we cannot use it? Think about how much more that would cause.

I thought like this with Bush, and was a wrong then as I would be if I felt this way still.

Let's look at it this way, what would the services you would like to pay for?

I will guess, maybe I am wrong I am taking a stab and going to do this for you living in the city, but let's see.
Road in front of your home, water to your home, electricity.

So how many neighbors do you have on your block, maybe 20 homes? How much do you think that would cost to have just those basic things? The pipes to your home, the pavement being poured, the wires to your home, (the grid that they are attached to we can not worry about how they get paid for) I am sure that unless you are in a very wealthy neighborhood, the combined wealth of the entire block could not afford to pay for all of those services, and I am sure you will get people that would refuse to sign off on it, meaning nobody would get it right?

So instead, this way everyone gets access, and it costs far less because of this (don't have to pay security guards at the end of the blocks to keep away people that didn't pay (ie toll booths).

Your Government will allow me NOT to participate without initiating some kind of force upon me? When did this happen?
It NEVER happened. It ISN'T voluntary.

Your focusing on what you perceive the "benefits" of government to be are shifting the question. Shouldn't I decide which benefits I want and pay for them accordingly? Isn't that the definition of freedom, voluntary etc.?

You don't have to pay, I am sure there are quite a few people on this website that don't pay, and you can leave where you live and go off the gird, hell that could mean living in your parents basement. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, why do you think illegal immigrants can do pretty decent here, you think they are paying taxes?

But once you CHOOSE to not live like that, you get a good job, you use the services, you pay for those services, it is that easy.

And let's pretend that you could chose what benefits you want to use, and pay for them at the time you wish. Don't you get that it would have had to already be there? That would cost money to have that benefit available? If not, how much would it cost to get it in place? Because shouldn't the people that paid for it be able to say fuck off, this is not for you?

And where do you think that would end up?

 

[Rob Roy]

How would that work? You decide what things you will use? How would we be told we did not pay for this service so we cannot use it? Think about how much more that would cause.

I thought like this with Bush, and was a wrong then as I would be if I felt this way still.

Let's look at it this way, what would the services you would like to pay for?

I will guess, maybe I am wrong I am taking a stab and going to do this for you living in the city, but let's see.
Road in front of your home, water to your home, electricity.

So how many neighbors do you have on your block, maybe 20 homes? How much do you think that would cost to have just those basic things? The pipes to your home, the pavement being poured, the wires to your home, (the grid that they are attached to we can not worry about how they get paid for) I am sure that unless you are in a very wealthy neighborhood, the combined wealth of the entire block could not afford to pay for all of those services, and I am sure you will get people that would refuse to sign off on it, meaning nobody would get it right?

So instead, this way everyone gets access, and it costs far less because of this (don't have to pay security guards at the end of the blocks to keep away people that didn't pay (ie toll booths).




You don't have to pay, I am sure there are quite a few people on this website that don't pay, and you can leave where you live and go off the gird, hell that could mean living in your parents basement. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, why do you think illegal immigrants can do pretty decent here, you think they are paying taxes?

But once you CHOOSE to not live like that, you get a good job, you use the services, you pay for those services, it is that easy.

And let's pretend that you could chose what benefits you want to use, and pay for them at the time you wish. Don't you get that it would have had to already be there? That would cost money to have that benefit available? If not, how much would it cost to get it in place? Because shouldn't the people that paid for it be able to say fuck off, this is not for you?

And where do you think that would end up?

It is obvious you have not read my posts or you cannt answer the questions, as you continually ignore the questions.

I will address a few of your concerns...
How would it work? Let's see I go into a grocery store I put stuff in my basket, I pay for what I use. If I can't pay for it, I don't insist that YOU or others pay for it. If you elect to help me, that is noble, if you INSIST I pay for others food what have you done? Have you taken my freedom ? Undeniably yes.

I live on a private road, but have no objection to cooperating with others on a pro-rata basis for other roads I might use. However, I have no wish to be MADE to pay for something I don't use or want. Electricity ? Make my own.
Water ? I have a well.
Neighbors? I have one, he's an ignorant asshole and a Police informant.

Anyhow, you HAVE skirted the question, again. You say government participation is voluntary. That is not true and never has been. Where is your evidence refuting that government participation is involuntary or reliant upon coercion and force?


And concerning your inaccurate assumptions...I HAVE had a gun held to my head, literally, for sticking to my beliefs. Yet in that instance I harmed nobody nor did I insist that others do as I say. I only asked that others permit me to live my own life. PERMISSION denied!

The greatest crime one can commit against your government is the crime of trying to be free. Trust me, I've been there.

 

[ChChoda]

With the economy in the dumper, millions of unemployed, thousands losing their jobs monthly, this is my question: When will those at the top, [the elites, the factory owners, the business owners, the employers etc.,] be willing to take a little less profit to keep a few employees working? Seems like they will do anything to not lose a penny of their bottom line, regardless of the pain and suffering of their employees. Is this what conservatism is all about??

With the economy in the dumper, millions of unemployed, thousands losing their jobs monthly, this is my question: When will those at the top, [the entrepreneurs, the factory owners, the business owners, the employers etc.,] be allowed to make a profit to keep a few employees working? Seems like the government will do anything to not lose a penny of their bottom line, regardless of the pain and suffering of their constituents. Is this what liberalism is all about??

 

[hanimmal]

Shit, just deleted my post on accident, so screw it I will make this brief.

I reread your original post, And I guess you didnt get that I tried to answer your question.

But here it goes again:

Why do you support an institution that relies upon force to make me a subject of your government? What is it that makes you feel that the use of force is just?

I don't think that it is right, and I am saying that they don't.

There is that plain enough?

Here is the reason why:

If you use things in our society that we have all paid for, and make a living by more than just trading, to the point that you do well enough to not be part of:

An astonishing 43.4 percent of Americans now pay zero or negative federal income taxes. The number of single or jointly-filing "taxpayers" - the word must be applied sparingly - who pay no taxes or receive government handouts has reached 65.6 million, out of a total of 151 million.

.

Then you have benefited enough from the things in place to pay for your extra income. If you didn't use roads, electricity (even if via other businesses, or farmers that bring the food you wish to buy to the store) you are benefiting, and chosing to use the things society put in place.

And as sorry as I am to hear about your neighbor (and I truly am that sucks), the reason you got a gun to your head was not due to the government wanting theirs. If it wasn't due to a dick cop, chances are you were being obstructive and that is why they used force. You could have simply gotten in the back of the car and never gotten a gun to your head. That again was your choice, just you did not like the consequences of your actions.

 

[Rob Roy]

Shit, just deleted my post on accident, so screw it I will make this brief.

I reread your original post, And I guess you didnt get that I tried to answer your question.

But here it goes again:

I don't think that it is right, and I am saying that they don't.

There is that plain enough?

Here is the reason why:

If you use things in our society that we have all paid for, and make a living by more than just trading, to the point that you do well enough to not be part of: .

Then you have benefited enough from the things in place to pay for your extra income. If you didn't use roads, electricity (even if via other businesses, or farmers that bring the food you wish to buy to the store) you are benefiting, and chosing to use the things society put in place.

And as sorry as I am to hear about your neighbor (and I truly am that sucks), the reason you got a gun to your head was not due to the government wanting theirs. If it wasn't due to a dick cop, chances are you were being obstructive and that is why they used force. You could have simply gotten in the back of the car and never gotten a gun to your head. That again was your choice, just you did not like the consequences of your actions.

You are saying "they don't use force"?
What do you call a gun to my head?

I did NOTHING to the men that arrested me, or to anyone for that matter. THEY initiated aggression against me. They cannot produce a victim, because my "crime" was one where a victim does not exist. I attempted to own my own body in an agricultural way...you can imagine the rest.

There is a world of difference between
Dick head cops and Peace officers. The first initiate aggression, the second PROTECT people from aggressors.

Who exactly is "society"? Can you ask "society" to come plow my road or split some more wood for me? The good of society cannot exist as long as others decide what is good for you. It is the same as owning your own body.

All we should ask or insist upon is that while you are owning yourself, you do not insist on owning others. Any deviation from that becomes arbitrary and reliant upon force. I've lived it, it is not theoretical for me.

 

[CaRNiFReeK]

I don't know where you live, but here in the wild wild west, Nv. anyone can pack a gun on his hip, (Except in certain places like banks, casinos, tourist areas, etc.). In my case, I have a concealed carry permit, allowing me to carry a concealed weapon most anywhere except a few isolated areas. Most all people have weapons in their homes, cuts down on home invasions. The fallicy of anti-gun laws is ignorance. If everyone carried a gun, we'd have a much more polite society, less crimes and less need for police. This has been proven time after time. The thing comes down to the same old thing. individual responsibility. One must keep guns out of the reach of children, teach their children about the destructive power of guns, and allow them to be properly trained in their use. I have taken my grandaughter to the firing range and to the desert to show her about guns in which she shows a great interest. I also have a huge gun safe to keep them secure. I will be enrolling her in a gun class this summer. I do not hunt, but have a supreme sniper rifle, (Deer rifle), an AK47, for gangers, a few other rifles and a variety of pistols, mostly semi-autos.. Let the good times roll. I am a vet and have a decent knowledge of guns.

'

Damn right. In Kansas, I carry a .38 in plain view on my hip any time I have a call to be somewhere without bright lights and lots of witnesses. I don't really truck in many dark alleyways, (I've got babies to raise) but nobody ever tries to rob me, or make eye contact with me when I've got my head down, either.