What do gays really want?

[jeffchr]

I would be FAR FAR FAR more concerned if two straight men wanted to adopt a baby.

Didn't they make a cute movie about that?

I think gay pppl who want to adopt children don't do it because of an equality issue. They do it because they feel they have something worth passing on to another generation. No, not their sexuality.... their knowledge and life experiences.

I also don't think TONS of gay couples want children, and the ones who do are probably better off financially than most straight parents.

Of course to the most basic and obvious point.... there are so many orphans out there. Children who need parents.

This helps the children.

Isn't that what it's all about?

cj - i can't believe what i'm reading. is that you? maybe i haven't read enough of your posts. you are no longer on my shit-list; just my not-sure list. (kidding)

anyway, I agree. an individual or couple, is an individual or a couple. not a "group" of people who should be approved or discouraged.

any child raised with love and respect will develop into a contributing member of society.

 

[fdd2blk]

2 seconds later, ....

here goes one, of a list of many ...

Gay couple left free to sexually molest their adopted kids.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=968_1196644121
Gay couple left free to abuse boys - because social workers feared being branded homophobic
by PAUL SIMS -

A homosexual foster couple were left free to sexually abuse vulnerable boys in their care because social workers feared being accused of discri More..mination if they investigated complaints, an inquiry concluded yesterday.





ever seen a penguin do THAT? lolz

 

[Stoney McFried]

Well, if you've read a lot of his posts, fdd,you'll notice a consistent pattern regarding the subjects of homosexuality,morality, child rearing, etc.
Let's discuss nature vs. nurture in regard to homosexuality. Rick clearly states that he has extensively studied psychology. Therefore,we can draw the conclusion that Rick believes he has an informed opinion on the subject,since he has also stated on numerous occasions that those who disagree with him are simply unable to grasp his concept.
If Rick really has extensively studied psychology, and is using his self proclaimed knowledge in psychology as a basis for his argument,he has just contradicted himself as soon as he says homosexuality is abnormal,or "deviant", because that view hasn't been held in modern psychology since 1973. It becomes obvious that he must have been reading old text books.
Now.... if we were to employ the same logic as Rick has and suggest that an abusive familial environment causes homosexuality, how can we explain homosexuals who have grown up in loving, nurturing environments? What about heterosexuals who grew up in abusive environments? Did your mom and dad "make" you straight? Or did you just kinda know you were already without being told? What about parents who tell their children religious nonsense about how it is evil to be gay? Shouldn't those kids always grow up straight, then? Because they've been "educated"? How come some of them end up coming out when they grow up? Because it's biological.
Years ago, the Victorians made all sorts of devices to place on children's genitals or hands to discourage masturbation. It was believed that masturbation was evil. It could kill you. You would become blind, diseased, mad, etc. It still didn't stop people from masturbating completely because it's not a result of loose morals or bad company, it's just a natural biological response to stimulus,hormones, whatever. All they really did was make their kids feel dirty and ashamed about urges they had no control over. We know better now.
People tend to do the same thing with homosexuality...but it's not really much different than heterosexuality in that no one can "teach" you to be one way or another. And implying that the parents have done something to cause their children to be a "sexual deviant" is a hurtful statement which is simply not based in any verifiable fact. Because being one way or another is neither "right" nor "wrong".
Rick isn't saying, "What if." He speaks in absolutes. I simply asked him to explain what qualifies him as an expert on this subject. Especially since the knowledge he browbeats us all with is out of date. That's not a personal attack. I haven't called him names.I haven't made ad hominem attacks against him, even though he has made them against myself and many others when we refuse to agree with him.
If the entirety of his argument is based on what I believe to be outdated or incorrect information, how in the heck am I getting personal with him by calling him out on it?
If he reads an old map of the world and tells me it's flat, am I being mean when I disagree with him? Is my mind closed?
We've seen what discrimination against gays has done in the past,and we know we were wrong. We know it's not a mental illness, even though it was generally accepted that it was in the past. So even if environment did determine sexual orientation, the big question is, "So what?" As long as noone hurts anybody else,who cares if two or more consenting adults want to go get a piece of paper granting them the same legal rights as anyone else who chooses to do the same? Aren't we all supposed to be equal under the law? Don't we all have the right not to go through with the ceremony as well? What if someone told you and your woman you HAD to get married or else you couldn't put her on your insurance? That she had no right to receive any benefits available to her as your partner unless you went and made it all nice and legal? That you couldn't opt out of marriage? Isn't that kinda the same thing we're doing when we tell gay people they can't opt in?


Ok, rant done.

i don't think he is saying that. i think he is saying "what if it were?". you all can't see past the personal side of the argument to actually address the point. i thought most of you were better than this. instead of actually facing the fact that this is one possibility, you just make personal attacks instead. i don't understand why.

open your minds a little. just for fun if anything. no one is holding you to any of this. well, ....

never mind.

 

[fdd2blk]

why do you make it about rick?

i still don't get it.

 

[fdd2blk]

2 seconds later, ....

here goes one, of a list of many ...

Gay couple left free to sexually molest their adopted kids.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=968_1196644121
Gay couple left free to abuse boys - because social workers feared being branded homophobic
by PAUL SIMS -

A homosexual foster couple were left free to sexually abuse vulnerable boys in their care because social workers feared being accused of discri More..mination if they investigated complaints, an inquiry concluded yesterday.





ever seen a penguin do THAT? lolz

why not address this instead?

easier to pick apart rick, i guess.


i'm gonna go take a nap now.

 

[Miss MeanWeed]

Questions: From a gay perspective, is prison sex between two consenting adults who began their sentences as heterosexuals an indication of having turned homosexual, or is it merely making the best of a bad situation? Or...

If they continue consensual homosexual acts outside of prison, are they gay, newly gay, bi-sexual, or exercising a habit they found pleasurable? Or...

 

[dukeofbaja]

WHAT IF it were?

Well, that would support the hypothesis put forth by some on this site that being gay is abnormal, a mental disease, the product of a poor upbinging or tragic event without fail.

But say, that is a 'for all' claim. All we need is one counterexample to blow it to smitherines.

Oh, wait. We already have thousands if not millions of examples of children who were brought up just as well as any heterosexual, but who are gay. So the existence of just one counterexample, much less the endless ones we already have, destroys the theory that homosexuality is somehow caused solely by poor upbringing or whatever else some folks on this site propose as the 'cause' of gayness.

Just curious, who has ever heard of twin studies? And for those that have heard of these 'twin studies', does anyone care to hazard a guess on what conclusions can be drawn about homosexuality based on these studies?

 

[Stoney McFried]

Never said it wasn't. Gays do things wrong too, cuz they're human, just like the rest of us. But being gay doesn't automatically make you more likely to do something wrong, any more than being straight makes you more likely to do something right. We can't punish everyone in a particular group just because there are a few bad apples. We can't make broad and sweeping generalizations about the character of everyone in said group based on the actions of a few. Not all priests molest children. Not all Irish are drunkards. Not all blacks will steal your t.v. These are just examples.Not insulting people.
We also can't jump to ridiculous conclusions about people because we don't fully understand them. For example,just because gay men like to have sex with other men, it doesn't mean they are then automatically going to go after little boys. "Straights" do shit to kids, too. I'm not denying anything. People can be fucked up, no matter what they identify as. But that is a separate issue that anti homosexuals immediately try to use to argue against gay rights. First it's," They shouldn't adopt, Because they'll rape the little boys because they like sex with men!" Then it's, "Well, if we redefine marriage to include same sex, what next, animals?" I mean, come ON. Who's not addressing reality?

it IS a possibility. 2 gay men COULD do something to a child in the woods. if i look deep enough i may even find something (google is amazing). BUT, it seems those who love the gays can't even admit a gay has EVER done anything wrong.

this is the shit that kills me.

denial wins NO argument. i don't even really have an opinion, other than the gay side can't even address reality.

 

[dukeofbaja]

Questions: From a gay perspective, is prison sex between two consenting adults who began their sentences as heterosexuals an indication of having turned homosexual, or is it merely making the best of a bad situation? Or...

If they continue consensual homosexual acts outside of prison, are they gay, newly gay, bi-sexual, or exercising a habit they found pleasurable? Or...

Do you really see things as this black and white?
Homosexuality/heterosexuality is a spectrum, with everyone falling somewhere.

Question: If you sucked 1,000 cocks then fucked a pussy, are you straight? How about if you fucked 1,000 pussies then sucked a cock? What if a gay person is walking around, trips, and falls penis first into a vagina?

For fuck's sake, if you do not get the concept of a spectrum of sexuality, how well does that speak of the rest of your opinin on matters like this?

 

[Stoney McFried]

Because I was addressing him regarding his comment to Rob Roy regarding his son. Because he makes threads about these same subjects ALL the time.He participates in every one of these threads. He comes across as being so much more knowledgeable than the rest of us. I want to know what makes him so. I want to know why he seems to think he can tell other people how to raise their children properly. The comment he made was nothing more than a thinly veiled smear against Rob's parenting.
And when you disagree with him, you get this, in one form or another...an attack against your intelligence. I simply want to know what makes him more qualified to decide on these matters than us. Why his opinions are more profound.
Originally Posted by RickWhite
If we take nothing else to heart, we should come away with the realization that MissMeanGrean and I dare say myself are obviously much better at producing sound arguments and avoiding the use of fallacious logic. I think that speaks to ones wisdom and over all intelligence. Just maybe, the rational individual ought to hold our opinions in higher regard for these reasons alone. If we are clearly superior in this regard, maybe there is reason to have confidance in our judgement more so than in the judgement of one who consistantly demonstrates an inability to reason on a similar level.

why do you make it about rick?

i still don't get it.

 

[Miss MeanWeed]

Do you really see things as this black and white?
Homosexuality/heterosexuality is a spectrum, with everyone falling somewhere.

Question: If you sucked 1,000 cocks then fucked a pussy, are you straight? How about if you fucked 1,000 pussies then sucked a cock? What if a gay person is walking around, trips, and falls penis first into a vagina?

For fuck's sake, if you do not get the concept of a spectrum of sexuality, how well does that speak of the rest of your opinin on matters like this?

See here, child. You reacted like it was some kind of trick question. I asked for a gay perspective, not an angry reply.

Are you gay? If not, perhaps you should shut the fuck up because the questions ask for a gay perspective.

If you are gay, then perhaps you should take the fifth if you are that suspicious.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

why not address this instead?

easier to pick apart rick, i guess.


i'm gonna go take a nap now.

If we were to play a little match game where you put up one story of a homosexual couple abusing children and I were to post two separate stories of heterosexual couples abusing children; who would have a mountain of stories to provide long after the other party ran out?

In other words, who would win the game?

Deputies: Couple Sexually Abused 2 Children

ALOHA, Ore. -- A married couple accused of sexually abusing the woman's two children could have more victims, deputies said.

Lisa Ford, 34, and Michael Marceau, 42, were arraigned Monday on charges of rape and sodomy.

Deputies said they found photos depicting sex abuse involving children during a search of the couple's Aloha home in February. Authorities also found evidence the couple was trading the pictures online, according to the Washington County Sheriff's Office.

Investigators said they discovered photos of other victims that have not been identified.

Anyone with information about the case is asked to call Aloha police at 503-846-2596.

If convicted, the couple would face sentencing under Jessica's Law, which requires a minimum 25-year sentence for convictions of rape and sodomy when the victim is under 12 years old.

Their bail was set at $4 million each.

http://www.kptv.com/news/22710739/detail.html

Just to rub it in, here's my second story.

Barrington married couple charged in repeated sexual assault of young girl

A married couple from Barrington Township is charged in the repeated sexual assaults of a 13-year-old girl. Berardo Lopez, 37, and his wife, Veronica Juarez, 33, of the 900 block of South Haugh, assaulted the girl in their home, according to the Cook County Sheriff's Department.

The investigation began after the girl told a school counselor she might be pregnant from Lopez.

Lopez is charged with 2 counts of criminal sexual assault and one count of criminal sexual abuse.

Juarez is charged with 1 count of endangering the life of a child.

The couple knew the girl, but the specifics of their relationship was not released to protect the girl's identity. Investigators say the assaults began last summer.

http://www.examiner.com/x-7520-Chicago-Crime-Examiner~y2010m1d21-Barrington-married-couple-charged-inrepeated-sexual-assault-of-young-girl

 

[dukeofbaja]

See here, child.

What the fuck is it with your 1890's vernaculary? Are you just trying to match it up with your 1890's beliefs?

You reacted like it was some kind of trick question. I asked for a gay perspective, not an angry reply.

You think that was an angry reply? More like exasperation at how someone can even open up their mouth on the issue with such a skewed take on things. My angry replies earn me infractions.

 

[PadawanBater]

WTF does that have to do with you engendering support for your opinion by the sad and tired tactic of accusing someone of racism. You are using the racism that black people have been subject to as a weapon. Your use of their suffering as an emotive tool is insulting to black people.

When did I call you racist again? I said it's "exactly the same as discrimination against other minorities." and used black people as an example. Did you just misunderstand my argument, create an easier argument for yourself and argue against that? ...I think I know someone who warned me against such obvious fallacies...

Of course it is always easy to win an argument when you get to re-define the other person's position to suit you. It's kind of like a batter doing his own pitching.

(..Us? You are so righteous you can speak unsolicited on others behalf? Or is this where you imply everyone agrees with you and only wankers disagree with you)

I can speak on behalf of 4 different people viewing each of our opinions.

..it was a remark about how your opinions don't seem very well thought out to me, they seem to be based entirely off of what you think is - in your own words "disgust, horror, humor, etc.. Not data, facts, or research. You, like Rick, try to be as vague as possible with responses but each of us can see right through those attempts. You guys are simply against gay people having equal rights, you don't see them as "normal" so they shouldn't be accepted as such. Homosexuality should be regarded as a "mental disorder" and they should be "treated" to try to "get rid" of it, and we shouldn't encourage people for being comfortable with their sexuality because somehow in your crazy little minds it'll tear apart the moral fabric of American society.

That about right?

Well hey, I agree with you here! The effects the presence of people so oriented has on my children is entirely my business. If you disagree with me, feel free to explain why it's any of your business.

You're directly implying that somehow some homosexual persons behavior will influence your kids sexuality. I just got done explaining to you how you don't choose your sexual orientation, use that reasoning with your child, why would he choose his sexual orientation? If that doesn't convince you, how about the fact that 90%-95% of the population of our society is heterosexual? Are you saying the 5% of homosexuals in our entire society could possibly have more of an influence on determining your kids sexuality?

No, again you confuse your opinion with worldwide reality. Millions of people react with disgust and even *shock horror* disdain at homosexuals. Just think religion, it'll help.

Millions of people? Appeal to majority much? (when actually the majority would disagree with you... well, here in America anyway; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_attitudes_toward_homosexuality#United_States )

Apparently you just can't make a valid statement without first implying a negative. Jeeeeesus...it's getting annoying now. Are you even aware you do it? If so please feel free to explain...

...simple solution... Get the fuck on with your business... lol. Whose making you read anything I'm saying?

So, in your confusion, when I say PEOPLE react as such, your addled peanut makes the leap in faith and logic that that means I am disgusted by such. You really have no idea that you can't make an argument without first attempting to discredit your adversaries, do you? To make it a bit clearer for you, where did I say it disgusts me?

But wait... didn't you just say:

You are so righteous you can speak unsolicited on others behalf? Or is this where you imply everyone agrees with you and only wankers disagree with you

Fail.

Oh, so chemical imbalances altered their speech so they talk camp. That doesn't happen here on Earth, but I did hear it happens on planet Idiotic Justification.

You are again missing the point completely. What does it matter how someone wants to act? If a man wants to act like a woman, why should you care? If a woman wants to act like a chicken, why should you care? It's none of your business, can you not understand that another person has the right to do whatever they want with themselves in every single aspect of their lives and your opinion upon that is meaningless?

Disregarding all the scientific evidence to back up the claims I've made, that reason ALONE should be enough to show you why your reasons for discriminating against homosexuals is illogical.

While it is obvious that some gay men have an excess of female hormones in their systems, and that this can and does lead to effeminate traits, it is also obvious that the 6'4" narrow-hipped muscular man with the hairy chest, broad shoulders, and huge adam's apple prancing about with a feather boa doesn't readily suffer from this. Yes, for sure a chemical imbalance makes him pansy to-and-fro while every other chemical in his body tries to turn him into a caveman.

Why does it matter?

Here's one of your main misunderstandings. YOU ASSUME that because I state that homosexuality is environmentally triggered, you somehow relate that to mean I am saying homosexuals consciously decide their sexuality.

You are assuming that homosexuals expressing affection for each other in public will somehow influence children to be gay.

Unfortunately for you, things aren't that black and white. Monkey see monkey do, my friend. Teenagers are impressionable. If they see gay as exciting, or attention grabbing, or popular, or whatever, they will undeniably be influenced by their experience.

This is simply bad reasoning. Prove this statement.

...nope, I was honestly just wondering why you're concerned with what homosexual people do with themselves... That seems a bit odd to me...

And you still haven't answered it...

Nonono, naughty naughty, it's still a tired and sad undermining technique even if you say 'you seem'...JESUS H CHRIST GROW THE FUCK UP AND FIGHT LIKE A MAN NOT A SNIDE DEVIOUS BITCHING LITTLE SOP

I would be better off if you hadn't crawled out of the abortion bucket.

I think MissMeanWeed did a yeoman's job of dissecting Padawan's "argument" and demonstrating that it is nothing more that one foul after another. It should also be noted that these same tactics are used in just about all the Left wing posts I see here.

And the constant personal attacks are unyielding

If we take nothing else to heart, we should come away with the realization that MissMeanGrean and I dare say myself are obviously much better at producing sound arguments and avoiding the use of fallacious logic. I think that speaks to ones wisdom and over all intelligence. Just maybe, the rational individual ought to hold our opinions in higher regard for these reasons alone. If we are clearly superior in this regard, maybe there is reason to have confidance in our judgement more so than in the judgement of one who consistantly demonstrates an inability to reason on a similar level.

Very telling guys...

That's horribly pathetic. You get pwned completely, reply with gibberish, and your last cowardly evangelist-like act is to link me to the Axis of Evil?

Pwned completely huh?

I was giving suggestions for countries you might fit in more... Isn't the "axis of evil" North Korea, Iran and Iraq or Afghanistan..?



Have fun with this sock account Rick... it's not really fooling me, you outed yourself completely with this post!

 

[dukeofbaja]

I don't think it is a sock account. MissMeanWeed seemed to spell a few words the English way (like behaviour) or so I seem to remember...who knows. Maybe they are just identical twins seperated at birth, or dopplegangers.

 

[upnorth2505]

I think gay pppl who want to adopt children don't do it because of an equality issue. They do it because they feel they have something worth passing on to another generation. No, not their sexuality.... their knowledge and life experiences.

I also don't think TONS of gay couples want children, and the ones who do are probably better off financially than most straight parents.

Of course to the most basic and obvious point.... there are so many orphans out there. Children who need parents.

This helps the children.

Isn't that what it's all about?

Thanks CJ for stating things honestly. The only thing I might differ with is that there quite a few gay folks that would love the responsibility of raising a family.

They believe in raising kids with good values just like most folks. If I was 10 years younger I would go for it. Of course 10 years ago the thought of raising kids was more remote.

Adoption is a great way to have kids. Also, if you can afford it, there is the donor/surrigate route. But Adoption should be a first choice--these kids need good homes.

 

[CrackerJax]

That's a risk with any adoption.

Then there is a lot of data that shows step fathers abuse their stepchildren FAR more often then the real fathers would.

Using comparable logic dictates that step fathers shouldn't be allowed to marry women with kids from a previous marriage.


And yes.... it's me!

 

[Katatawnic]

If men don't marry women with kids from a previous marriage, then they wouldn't be called "step fathers" in the first place. They'd just be called men.

 

[dukeofbaja]

I hate to post this, but what Katatawnic said is true

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjO1F6oCab8

 

[upnorth2505]

i don't think he is saying that. i think he is saying "what if it were?". you all can't see past the personal side of the argument to actually address the point. i thought most of you were better than this. instead of actually facing the fact that this is one possibility, you just make personal attacks instead. i don't understand why.

open your minds a little. just for fun if anything. no one is holding you to any of this. well, ....

never mind.

I have thought about it, though mostly in the past.

I would NOT say the parents have NO influence on whether their child is str8 or gay, but there is really very little serious research here.

Meaningful research is partially limited by ethics. For example, if parents raise a boy in a "girly" way, giving him girl dolls, no masculine toys, etc, etc. will this child be gay? I have read some anecdotal studies and they are far from conclusive. Of course, I think it would be very unethical to raise a male child in this way.

Are there subtle unconscience "cues" that a parent might give a child that could turn them gay? Maybe, but does really make sense? Again, no real data here.

Somewhat implcit in this concept is that parents often recognize and take "corrective" action. That is, they notice that their boy is acting "femmy" and expose him to a hyper-masculine environment to correct this "defect". I have neither read, nor do I have any annecdotal stories from str8 friends regarding this.

I think that environmental factors are very subtle indeed. More related to how a child conducts themselves and certain behvioral traits.

In addition my personal observation is that certain people "look gay". Why? There is a certain feminization of facial characteristics. This is rarely observed in str8 men. It might be my hyper sensitive "gaydar" but I would say that maybe 20% of gay folks I know or have seen "look" noticeably gay. This is independent of their dress, demeanour, etc.

Of course, I represent the utmost in male masculinity. (Joke here everyone! ).

Anyway, there are randomized studies where people look at photos of str8 and gay guys (only faces, and no make up!) and folks are able to an amazing degree indentify the gay guys. So there are distingushing physical characteristics going on here.

Honestly though, even if being gay was 100% a result of parental upbringing, it would not change my views.

I think it is fair to say that very few people think these days that gay folks "choose" to be gay. In my 30+ years of interacting with gay folk I have never met anyone that said they made a decision to be gay.

Finally Occams Razor: What makes the most sense? That folks choose to be gay? That parents make there kids gay? Or that being gay is a mostly biological deal with some subtle environmental factors? I know what my vote is.