In Defense of Free Speech: Is Islam a Hate Crime?

[PadawanBater]

[youtube]Xi34wL4KIfo[/youtube]

Muslims sure can't take criticism..

That's one thing I definitely don't take for granted living in a western society, the right to call bullshit for what it is without the threat of death.

This video does a pretty good job of putting things in perspective and it outlines the specific dangers of the Islamic faith upon western society.

 

[doc111]

[youtube]Xi34wL4KIfo[/youtube]

Muslims sure can't take criticism..

That's one thing I definitely don't take for granted living in a western society, the right to call bullshit for what it is without the threat of death.

This video does a pretty good job of putting things in perspective and it outlines the specific dangers of the Islamic faith upon western society.

This is an example of why I support the war on terror and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. These extremists don't want to negotiate. They don't want us out of the middle east. They don't want equal treatment and rights. They want the infidels (you and me) gone off the face of the earth. This sort of ideology understands only one thing...............violence! As much as I abhor violence this is the only alternative we have. If I were younger I would have gladly enlisted to fight what some of our own citizens are calling an "illegal war". This threat has to be taken seriously and dealt with harshly. Rant over!

 

[upnorth2505]

Islam is the antithesis of our values in the US. The radicals hate us, hate our culture, and hate freedom. That anyone believes that this Mohammed was the ultimate profit is a joke. He was nothing but a vicious, war mongering, sexist, evil person.

Islam advocates the over through of the infidels: The United States. Honestly, I would like to see the religion banned. Unfortunately, our constitution will not permit that. I do think that any Muslims in our country who advocate the overthrow of our government and participate in terrorist activities should be jailed for treason. And put to death in some cases.

Yes, we are at war with terrorists. But it goes deeper, and few will admit it. We are and should be at war with Islam.

 

[Brazko]

A good job at putting things in perspective it does.., I really liked the opener in describing how the fundies Retard our Potential.. , (true) and Islam is what it is..

The fundies look to maintain power through enslavement, The Extremist look to gain & maintain power by violence..,

The only differ I have with you Paddy is the approach to the situation, in that I prefer a Scope vs. Your Street Sweeper. They work better for long range targets.

 

[williewill420]

Any religion that teaches killing others who dont worship their god...thats a cult in my book

 

[PadawanBater]

This is an example of why I support the war on terror and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. These extremists don't want to negotiate. They don't want us out of the middle east. They don't want equal treatment and rights. They want the infidels (you and me) gone off the face of the earth. This sort of ideology understands only one thing...............violence! As much as I abhor violence this is the only alternative we have. If I were younger I would have gladly enlisted to fight what some of our own citizens are calling an "illegal war". This threat has to be taken seriously and dealt with harshly. Rant over!

And I would agree with everything you said if the objectives we set were actually accomplishing anything productive.

There is no other option for the ones that can't be reasoned with. If they want to fight the expanse of western society with terrorism that takes the lives of innocent people, I don't have any problem blowing each and every single one of them off the face of the planet. But we should not be occupying their lands! This is an epic mistake we're making on the battlefield.

Why can't we just stay here, in America, protect our shit and all our allies shit with our insanely huge military and intelligence services, then kick ass and take names when they come fuck with us? Americans would die, yes, absolutely, as some terrorist attacks would likely penetrate our defenses no matter how good they are, but we would no longer be seen as the aggressors, the country who doesn't give a damn about anyone else but ourselves, we would actually be fighting terrorism, defeating these enemies and building strong relationships with allies and any other country who values freedom and democracy. We would lead by example, our international motto would no longer be "do what I say, not what I do"...

The risk of American lives (even my own or my families) is more important in the long run, securing safety for our citizens and ensuring everyone knows the risk of committing terrorism against the US is a fool proof way to end any terrorists reign of power wherever they might be.

This isn't isolation. It's what a smart country would do to save money and ensure no more civilian casualties are committed by our weapons in foreign lands.

Islam advocates the over through of the infidels: The United States. Honestly, I would like to see the religion banned. Unfortunately, our constitution will not permit that. I do think that any Muslims in our country who advocate the overthrow of our government and participate in terrorist activities should be jailed for treason. And put to death in some cases.

Yes, we are at war with terrorists. But it goes deeper, and few will admit it. We are and should be at war with Islam.

That would be a huge mistake. It would give the fanatics justification. I think it's important for open criticism of all religions. That way, ordinary people can see the bullshit for what it actually is.

You should seriously rethink your opinion about giving anyone who practices their religion the death penalty. I'm one of the most adamant atheists on this forum and would never advocate that.

If you don't have the freedom to do what you want with your own thoughts, you don't have freedom at all.

Religion should never be banned by any authoritative figure, if that ever happened, I wouldn't even think about it, I'd be out in the streets with all the fundies fighting against it.

A good job at putting things in perspective it does.., I really liked the opener in describing how the fundies Retard our Potential.. , (true) and Islam is what it is..

The fundies look to maintain power through enslavement, The Extremist look to gain & maintain power by violence..,

The only differ I have with you Paddy is the approach to the situation, in that I prefer a Scope vs. Your Street Sweeper. They work better for long range targets.

I should have clarified, I don't mean to paint all Muslims like the ones depicted in the video clip, I agree with you Braz.

 

[doc111]

And I would agree with everything you said if the objectives we set were actually accomplishing anything productive.

There is no other option for the ones that can't be reasoned with. If they want to fight the expanse of western society with terrorism that takes the lives of innocent people, I don't have any problem blowing each and every single one of them off the face of the planet. But we should not be occupying their lands! This is an epic mistake we're making on the battlefield.

Why can't we just stay here, in America, protect our shit and all our allies shit with our insanely huge military and intelligence services, then kick ass and take names when they come fuck with us? Americans would die, yes, absolutely, as some terrorist attacks would likely penetrate our defenses no matter how good they are, but we would no longer be seen as the aggressors, the country who doesn't give a damn about anyone else but ourselves, we would actually be fighting terrorism, defeating these enemies and building strong relationships with allies and any other country who values freedom and democracy. We would lead by example, our international motto would no longer be "do what I say, not what I do"...

The risk of American lives (even my own or my families) is more important in the long run, securing safety for our citizens and ensuring everyone knows the risk of committing terrorism against the US is a fool proof way to end any terrorists reign of power wherever they might be.

This isn't isolation. It's what a smart country would do to save money and ensure no more civilian casualties are committed by our weapons in foreign lands.



That would be a huge mistake. It would give the fanatics justification. I think it's important for open criticism of all religions. That way, ordinary people can see the bullshit for what it actually is.

You should seriously rethink your opinion about giving anyone who practices their religion the death penalty. I'm one of the most adamant atheists on this forum and would never advocate that.

If you don't have the freedom to do what you want with your own thoughts, you don't have freedom at all.

Religion should never be banned by any authoritative figure, if that ever happened, I wouldn't even think about it, I'd be out in the streets with all the fundies fighting against it.



I should have clarified, I don't mean to paint all Muslims like the ones depicted in the video clip, I agree with you Braz.

Occupation is a necessary part of any war. We brought the battle to them which has probably saved lives and prevented attacks here at home. We have no way to know this, of course, but that's the reasoning. We're almost done in Iraq so the occupation will end soon enough there, which I think is long overdue. Afghanistan is another story. We dropped the ball and missed our opportunity but all is not lost. Pakistan is key to any long term solution in Afghanistan. We will never be victorious as long as our enemy can just hop across the border and give us the finger. Drone strikes aren't enough. We need to put more pressure on Pakistan to flush and kill the extremists in the northwest. Small, tactical nukes would be useful for just this situation. Of course this would make us even more unpopular with the rest of the world so it's not likely to ever happen. That being said, I think it won't be long before terrorists succeed in detonating a small nuke on U.S. soil. The day is coming. Might be tomorrow, might be next year, might be 50 years, but it's going to happen.

 

[PadawanBater]

Occupation is a necessary part of any war. We brought the battle to them which has probably saved lives and prevented attacks here at home. We have no way to know this, of course, but that's the reasoning. We're almost done in Iraq so the occupation will end soon enough there, which I think is long overdue. Afghanistan is another story. We dropped the ball and missed our opportunity but all is not lost. Pakistan is key to any long term solution in Afghanistan. We will never be victorious as long as our enemy can just hop across the border and give us the finger. Drone strikes aren't enough. We need to put more pressure on Pakistan to flush and kill the extremists in the northwest. Small, tactical nukes would be useful for just this situation. Of course this would make us even more unpopular with the rest of the world so it's not likely to ever happen. That being said, I think it won't be long before terrorists succeed in detonating a small nuke on U.S. soil. The day is coming. Might be tomorrow, might be next year, might be 50 years, but it's going to happen.

Have we saved more American lives than Iraqi lives lost? (in your opinion)

If we haven't, how is it justified? Are American lives worth more than Iraqi lives? Is it the idea that we're destroying terrorism? Is that the goal? To have no more terrorism anywhere? If not, what's the goal of the war on terror? Just prevent terrorists from having the capability to strike anywhere? What happens once we accomplish that, then the terrorists find other means to harm innocent people? Do we wage an international war on that?

Is this problem more important than the global financial crisis? The military uses a HUGE portion of our budget to operate, is it worth it?

Basically, what is the goal of the entire thing, how do we accomplish it and how do we ensure stability in the region afterward?

 

[doc111]

Have we saved more American lives than Iraqi lives lost? (in your opinion)

If we haven't, how is it justified? Are American lives worth more than Iraqi lives? Is it the idea that we're destroying terrorism? Is that the goal? To have no more terrorism anywhere? If not, what's the goal of the war on terror? Just prevent terrorists from having the capability to strike anywhere? What happens once we accomplish that, then the terrorists find other means to harm innocent people? Do we wage an international war on that?

Is this problem more important than the global financial crisis? The military uses a HUGE portion of our budget to operate, is it worth it?

Basically, what is the goal of the entire thing, how do we accomplish it and how do we ensure stability in the region afterward?

Nobody knows for sure. You asked a lot of questions which nobody has the answer to. Are American lives worth more than Iraqi lives? To Americans, yes. The goal, I think, is to disrupt the terrorist's base of operations, to prevent attacks at home, to dismatle their leadership and prevent them from being able to reconstitute. I don't really know what our goals are beyond that. Iraq was at least partially about oil I believe. We accomplish these goals by killing as many of them as possible while limiting civilian casualties, which we've done a brilliant job on both of those fronts. Some will say that we've killed too many civilians. I agree, even one is too many. But I think it will be a long time before we have the capability of causing destrucion without civilian casualties. I believe this is more important than this financial crisis because lives are at stake. Evidently so is healthcare reform. lol!

 

[ahmednegm]

hmmmm...i guess u guys should have some one to put out the hate upon lol. so here i am, a muslim from egypt, and i would like to share some thoughts

1st i am loving the way Padawanbater thinks, he is thinking reasonably and patriotic in a good way,i dont need to quote what he says, it pretty clear, but now, let me point out something that i noticed a long time ago.
we all know what islamophobia is for sure, and i see america is most infested with it. i dont mean anything bad,am just saying that,please people,before u start judging on a religion or a faith,study it 1st ! try to live it or live among people who practice it. honestly what the msgs u r getting in the US about islam is totally manipulated and untrue,even if they show u quotes from the quran or qoutes from our prophet (who i would really like to see some people respect him as we muslims respect jesus) about whatever bullcrap about islam spreading through wars or islam promoting to child molestation or whatever crap u guys hear or see from ur politicians who are all about money and dollars and being an imperialistic power. islam has much more than this, and if something about it was misunderstood, please search for the truth or the reason, trust me lots of people take words out of their context and would mean a totaly different thing. and think about it,we have LOADS of christians in the arab world ? why dont we hate them or kill them or make wars on them ? well...cuz its simply not what islam teaches us,and u know what happens if i ever hear in our news about muslims attacking christians or whatever. i just think..man how come there could be such ignorant asshole muslims who know nothing about their religion but its name. and am not the only one who thinks that way.

so u have to understand this..whoever extremist lost-in-the-head muslim did anything that caused terror...doesnt mean that the whole religion is about terror. let me tell a story about our prophet which i like and is very expressive.

our prophet mohamed used to have a jewish neighbor who used to throw garbage everyday on mohameds doorstep (strangely jewish rabbies of that time prophesied that its a time of a new prophet and most of them hated him before he was given the msg) so one day mohamed came out of the house and there was no garbage, so he wondered what could be wrong with his neighbor,so he went to the jew's house to check on him and found him sick. he stayed with him and treated as good as visiting ur sick neighbor. maybe u wouldnt believe such story since islam for u is some sort of myth or hallucinations, another story is about saladin and king richard, during their war king richard got very sick and couldnt go to battle,so he asked for a few days truth,saladin accepted and went to him,he took food and medicin to king richard and even a christian nurse of Jerusalem. and that is history not some muslim blabber.

so finally i just want to say that these are examples of islam as a religion of tolerance equality and balance, and it would be great if u guys rethink about it.forget the bearded bomb holding image of the muslim and look for the true muslims who are the majority.

one last thing, our religion tells us to fight against whoever threats ur safety as occupying ur land or killing ur family, what do u guys think about that ? does this sound somehow weird or stange or savage ? i saw americans cross half the world to get to a place that MIGHT have extremist muslims ( or maybe just muslims) so they can take revenge on them. and what the result ? more civilianz killed than the alleged enemy ur politicians told u about. the difference between us and u, we dont fight unless u come to us (that is what islam tells me)..u people fight anyone anywhere anytime for any reason..simply

 

[PadawanBater]

Nobody knows for sure. You asked a lot of questions which nobody has the answer to. Are American lives worth more than Iraqi lives? To Americans, yes. The goal, I think, is to disrupt the terrorist's base of operations, to prevent attacks at home, to dismatle their leadership and prevent them from being able to reconstitute. I don't really know what our goals are beyond that. Iraq was at least partially about oil I believe. We accomplish these goals by killing as many of them as possible while limiting civilian casualties, which we've done a brilliant job on both of those fronts. Some will say that we've killed too many civilians. I agree, even one is too many. But I think it will be a long time before we have the capability of causing destrucion without civilian casualties. I believe this is more important than this financial crisis because lives are at stake. Evidently so is healthcare reform. lol!

I know you're a smart guy, you must have considered the implications of "killing as many of them as possible". I do not believe the goals you outlined can be accomplished this way. What happens when you leave a child homeless, or orphaned? The war has been going for almost a decade, an entire generation of Iraqi children know nothing but war. I think that is already having massive effects on the region. Can you blame them? What would you do?

To that second point in bold, why wage war? We all talk about how wrong it is for people to pay the bill of someone elses medical coverage if they choose not to participate - it's wrong to force them to do it, but the game changes when it comes to warfare? Why? Why is it OK for someone else to wage a war that I don't support that might kill me or my family? It's different when clear enemies, national governments or standing armies wage war, but the analogy is solid in conflicts like this. Someone else is forcing me to front the bill and countless peoples lives are on the line, not just their wallets.

we all know what islamophobia is for sure, and i see america is most infested with it. i dont mean anything bad,am just saying that,please people,before u start judging on a religion or a faith,study it 1st ! try to live it or live among people who practice it. honestly what the msgs u r getting in the US about islam is totally manipulated and untrue,even if they show u quotes from the quran or qoutes from our prophet (who i would really like to see some people respect him as we muslims respect jesus) about whatever bullcrap about islam spreading through wars or islam promoting to child molestation or whatever crap u guys hear or see from ur politicians who are all about money and dollars and being an imperialistic power.

islam has much more than this, and if something about it was misunderstood, please search for the truth or the reason, trust me lots of people take words out of their context and would mean a totaly different thing. and think about it,we have LOADS of christians in the arab world ? why dont we hate them or kill them or make wars on them ? well...cuz its simply not what islam teaches us,and u know what happens if i ever hear in our news about muslims attacking christians or whatever. i just think..man how come there could be such ignorant asshole muslims who know nothing about their religion but its name. and am not the only one who thinks that way.

so u have to understand this..whoever extremist lost-in-the-head muslim did anything that caused terror...doesnt mean that the whole religion is about terror. let me tell a story about our prophet which i like and is very expressive.

our prophet mohamed used to have a jewish neighbor who used to throw garbage everyday on mohameds doorstep (strangely jewish rabbies of that time prophesied that its a time of a new prophet and most of them hated him before he was given the msg) so one day mohamed came out of the house and there was no garbage, so he wondered what could be wrong with his neighbor,so he went to the jew's house to check on him and found him sick. he stayed with him and treated as good as visiting ur sick neighbor. maybe u wouldnt believe such story since islam for u is some sort of myth or hallucinations, another story is about saladin and king richard, during their war king richard got very sick and couldnt go to battle,so he asked for a few days truth,saladin accepted and went to him,he took food and medicin to king richard and even a christian nurse of Jerusalem. and that is history not some muslim blabber.

so finally i just want to say that these are examples of islam as a religion of tolerance equality and balance, and it would be great if u guys rethink about it.forget the bearded bomb holding image of the muslim and look for the true muslims who are the majority.

There are enough fanatics in Islam to change the world, as seen on 911. I agree it's a small minority, but they can't be ignored.

You seem like a nice enough person, and I appreciate you posting, but I don't give respect to things that demand it. I give respect to people and things that earn it. Islam, just like Christianity, does not deserve my respect. It's an ancient belief system not suitable for modern society.

one last thing, our religion tells us to fight against whoever threats ur safety as occupying ur land or killing ur family, what do u guys think about that ? does this sound somehow weird or stange or savage ? i saw americans cross half the world to get to a place that MIGHT have extremist muslims ( or maybe just muslims) so they can take revenge on them. and what the result ? more civilianz killed than the alleged enemy ur politicians told u about. the difference between us and u, we dont fight unless u come to us (that is what islam tells me)..u people fight anyone anywhere anytime for any reason..simply

I believe the most adamant Muslims would disagree with you on that. I just saw today some guy talking about the Muslim flag waving above the White House...

 

[doc111]

I know you're a smart guy, you must have considered the implications of "killing as many of them as possible". I do not believe the goals you outlined can be accomplished this way. What happens when you leave a child homeless, or orphaned? The war has been going for almost a decade, an entire generation of Iraqi children know nothing but war. I think that is already having massive effects on the region. Can you blame them? What would you do?

To that second point in bold, why wage war? We all talk about how wrong it is for people to pay the bill of someone elses medical coverage if they choose not to participate - it's wrong to force them to do it, but the game changes when it comes to warfare? Why? Why is it OK for someone else to wage a war that I don't support that might kill me or my family? It's different when clear enemies, national governments or standing armies wage war, but the analogy is solid in conflicts like this. Someone else is forcing me to front the bill and countless peoples lives are on the line, not just their wallets.



There are enough fanatics in Islam to change the world, as seen on 911. I agree it's a small minority, but they can't be ignored.

You seem like a nice enough person, and I appreciate you posting, but I don't give respect to things that demand it. I give respect to people and things that earn it. Islam, just like Christianity, does not deserve my respect. It's an ancient belief system not suitable for modern society.



I believe the most adamant Muslims would disagree with you on that. I just saw today some guy talking about the Muslim flag waving above the White House...

That's part of the problem. This is a different kind of enemy than we are used to dealing with. What's the solution? Should we have just taken it on the chin and said "OK guys, don't do that again."? Action had to be taken and it's unfortunate whenever civilians die but it's a fact of war. There is no perfect solution. Either way you slice it people will die. You won't meet too many combat vets who don't despise war but it's a necessary evil..........at least at this point in humanity's evolution. There will always be those who wish to do us harm and when diplomacy fails what other option is there?

 

[iNVESTIGATE]

[youtube]qTsR820ofEQ[/youtube]

 

[dukeofbaja]

History should be a good indicator that trying to occupy Afghanistan is a bad idea. I feel that this should have been a fairly covert CIA mission aimed at specific targets with other proven methods, like propagandizing the citizens and whatnot.

Interesting sidenote, does anyone remember that poll from back in 2004 about torture? Something like 66% of Americans objected to use of torture even during times of war, yet a whopping 97% were opposed to the torture of US soldiers or citizens by non-Americans. That means 31% of people are absolutely fucked in the head....

 

[doc111]

History should be a good indicator that trying to occupy Afghanistan is a bad idea. I feel that this should have been a fairly covert CIA mission aimed at specific targets with other proven methods, like propagandizing the citizens and whatnot.

Interesting sidenote, does anyone remember that poll from back in 2004 about torture? Something like 66% of Americans objected to use of torture even during times of war, yet a whopping 97% were opposed to the torture of US soldiers or citizens by non-Americans. That means 31% of people are absolutely fucked in the head....

Covert wars are dirty business (We already fought one of those in Afghanistan during the late 70's on through the 80's). Propaganda is in use over there. Bush definitely dropped the ball but the reasons are fairly easy to see. Now that we have a president who's determined to focus on Afghanistan victory will be much easier to attain. We are here for a different reason than all of the previous wars. Failure is not an option. Our very existence depends on it. Remember they attacked us first in the 1993 WTC bombing. They attacked us again in the Kenyan and Tanzanian, American embassy bombings in 1998. Again in Yemen, the USS Cole in 2000. I'm sure there are some I forgot (Oh yeah, 9/11) or that were less publicized but the point is clear. They wanted a war, they got a war.

And before you try to say that the govt. of Afghanistan didn't attack us, I don't see the Taliban, Al Qaeda or any fundamentalist islamic terror group as separate entities since they all cooperate and share resources. Afghanistan was the preeminent islamic, fundamentalist scumbag destination of the last half of the 20th century.

 

[dukeofbaja]

Well, shouldn't we be invading Saudi Arabia then?

EDIT - Perhaps we should invade ourselves, since we cooperated and shared resources as well?

 

[doc111]

Well, shouldn't we be invading Saudi Arabia then?

EDIT - Perhaps we should invade ourselves, since we cooperated and shared resources as well?

Nope, Saudi Arabia is still selling us oil. We did share resources when it suited us. Then the fuckers turned on us. Not surprising really. This country needs to have conflict. A military industrial complex has indeed sprung up and it's not going away without a fight. Fortunately there seems to be no end in sight.

 

[dukeofbaja]

Hmmmm, the hijackers were Saudi and they learned how to fly in American facilities despite the fact that they never should have been allowed into the US in the first place.

We need to bomb ourselves for cooperating with their wishes to enter and sharing our resources in teaching them to fly.

 

[doc111]

Hmmmm, the hijackers were Saudi and they learned how to fly in American facilities despite the fact that they never should have been allowed into the US in the first place.

We need to bomb ourselves for cooperating with their wishes to enter and sharing our resources in teaching them to fly.

Well I was talking about our arming of the Mujihudeen during the Soviet, Afghan conflict of the 80's. We didn't actually know we were giving the 9/11 hijackers resources, which is another problem altogether.

 

[speeka]

This is an example of why I support the war on terror and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. These extremists don't want to negotiate. They don't want us out of the middle east. They don't want equal treatment and rights. They want the infidels (you and me) gone off the face of the earth. This sort of ideology understands only one thing...............violence! Rant over!

LOL that's what used to be said about the Soviets. They only understand violence blabla.

Was the middle east supposed to be happy about decades of outside interference by the west since the days of the CIA overthrowing Mossadegh in Iran for British petrolium & Mi6?

it is an illegal war, just like Vietnam was. Both were started under false pretenses.

But you can get away with murder if you are a Permanent member of the UNSC.