Touchet's Perpetual Garden
- Thread starter Touchet
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LAX Skunky BwS
Well-Known Member
im on board ...very nice set up nice looking plants +rep
Touchet
New Member
Well thanks a bunch. Today is a good day to jump on board, things are gonna change again.
Touchet
New Member
Ok, gonna eat brakfast, burn one, take pics of my PG13 in flower about to get topped on half the plant only to prove a point, re arrange some lights, feed the mommies, and then we'll get into HOW AND WHY TO GROW BUSHES !!
I have got 4-5 PM's so far this morning so we'll tackle it head on today.
I have got 4-5 PM's so far this morning so we'll tackle it head on today.
Touchet
New Member
Ok, breakfast is done and I'm sufficiently blazed enough to release some info.
Let me start by saying I have done a lot of research, and I mean a lot. Botany research, lighting research, nutrient research, ventilation research, grow medium research, the list is extensive. I then sat down over the course of 3 months and compiled everything I had learned into one single Manifesto of growing knowledge. I then took that info and went to a close friend who is a carpenter, well, he builds the entire home, custom homes only. So wiring, framing, you name it. I personally have an extensive background in electrical wiring, electrical components and custom cabinet building specific to loud speaker enclosures. Like this one,
Next I have a friend who volunteered his home for the grow "lab" as we call it.
Myself and the construction engineer, we'll call him George cause he reminds me of George of the jungle kinda. Like the goofy monkey in the books. Anyway, me and George started discussing the perfect area of the house to grow in. We came up with the bathroom in his master bedroom, lol. Yes, his girl hated it, at first. She's hot so we though it was perfect, maybe catch her, well, never mind you get it. But seriously we decided that for good reasons.
1- it was built with greenboard
2-bath tub is the kind with the surround on it and a little lip all the way around the top, also if you spill something who cares, rinse it away.
3- water supply in the room
4- the outlets have their own GFC in that room and we can pull power from other outlets in the master bedroom if needed.
5-it allowed a straight walk way from door to tub to be created with shelves on either side for multiple veg trays.
6- it was the farthest room from the front door and back door
7-it had ac into the room via the ceiling
So now that we have a room picked out we used a single sheet of 3/4" plywood for the "top" of the flowering chamber, the tub surround would support the remaining three "walls". And these walls are special folks. I have posted a LOT of pic's and vids of this LAB but no one has noticed the walls in the flowering chamber. These walls are not just Mylar tapped up on the tub surround, there are styro foam boards under the Mylar. Each board is one inch thick, cut to fit into the chamber with a slight camber from top to bottom. Laymens terms, they tilt. The bottom of the chamber is 20* inside the top of the chamber. |\ <= kinda like that. If you were to shine a laser pen off the side of the reflector on your light so it showed you the exact line of primary light and secondary light demarcation, on my walls you would be able to follow this beam directly into the sides of the plants. This way very little of the light is wasted by being reflected down towards the ground. I had planned on using two lights from the get go, this way I could cover more of the grow area with equal lumens. There is no weak spot in between the two lights because of the overlap of secondary light by both lamps raise the lumen output to within just a few off from the lumen output at the very center under the light. We tested it with a meter.
Next we did the air exchange issue. I dont want to run co2 in my buddies place so we needed a way to make sure that the amount of air being forced into the flowering chamber is slightly more than that being sucked out by the blower. I use a 6" Dayton axial fan for the intake at the bottom of the chamber's face. I use the a/c in the bathroom to cool both the remaining bathroom area for vegging and the flowering chamber. It's split with a t. then one side is boosted with a duct fan, once it goes into the flowering chamber it blows down on to the lights helping to keep them cool. The blower sucking air out through the filter is 275 cfm an slightly restricted because the filter is attached. SO, by forcing more air in than can be sucked out in the same amount of time I ensure plenty of fresh natural co2 in the flowering chamber. The axial fan is only 235 cfm and I have it restricted by a displacement sheet in front of them opening.
Flowering chamber , perfect.
On to the veg.
Left side of the room is running 1250 ppm for older plants and the right side is running 1000 ppm for the younger plants. Anything below that ppm rating is hand fed by yours truly. All water is RO bought at a store. Ph is 5.6 constant and checked daily. The lights are both T5's from Feliz.
Here's were the bushes begin.
Photosynthesis peaks in the 435nm and 680nm range. A T5 light emits peaks at 435nm and 615nm. This makes a T5 light the most efficient light for veg, hands down, well until plasma lights get popular. T5 bulbs make 96 lumen's per watt which is pretty damn good. Now think about the fact that I have pics in here of me holding a lit T5 in my hands and resting it on the back of my hand, so NO HEAT. Also in test after test on plant after plant, T5 lights used during seedling and clone growth show root growth TWICE that of any other light on the market currently. Also they are designed to run in high humidity environments. So, I use the BEST light to veg with.
This next topic is a touchy one to some people, nutrients. I use one thing and I use the ENTIRE LINE of nutrients as the makers designed it to work fine separately but when used as a whole the results are amazing.
I use Dutch Master Gold Line Nutrients and Liquid Light and Penetrator Foliar feeding programs. They have an online interactive nutrient calculator that takes guessing out of the equation, which I like. Their product reviews were outrageous, so I asked around and concurred they were for me.
You will have to do your own research on these nutes, but you'll see things like ionic charged nutrients to promote vigorous growth, etc. Basically they focus the feeding on the Calvin cycle of the plant. Liquid Light is pretty much just that, light in a bottle. It was designed for small growers with small lights so they could get big yields. It works, no doubt. Penetrator DOUBLES the power of liquid light, hence my garden.
The veg tray on the left uses a 250 watt Feliz 6500k with a gull wing fixture.
the veg tray on the right uses a 150 watt Feliz 6500k with econo wing fixture.
this from DM:
Gold Range LIQUID LIGHT puts your plants into overdrive by helping to restore their lost natural photosynthetic power. Liquid Light does this by providing your plants with selected minerals, carbohydrates, amino-acids and phyto-nutrients that optimizes the Calvin Cycle, a critical cycle of photosynthesis. By restoring a large portion of a plants’ natural genetic photosynthetic speed, or power, plants are able to use a lot more of the precious light you provide them.
I proved this to be true by using it outside on some plants in my front yard that were in the shade almost the whole day (pics in here), at the end of two weeks (4 applications) the ones in the shade were twice the size of those in direct sunlight all day with no LL. SO on to my cannabis it went!!
Left tray 1250 ppm
right tray 1000 ppm,
In the left tray you can clearly see the Train wreck everyone loves before it was SC'd and topped. Compare its foliage to those around it, lol. It pales in comparison. It was recently cloned again is why, the bottom 20 branches came off, I think, might have been more. Here it is before it was hacked up, little baby, about 28 days old
Let me start by saying I have done a lot of research, and I mean a lot. Botany research, lighting research, nutrient research, ventilation research, grow medium research, the list is extensive. I then sat down over the course of 3 months and compiled everything I had learned into one single Manifesto of growing knowledge. I then took that info and went to a close friend who is a carpenter, well, he builds the entire home, custom homes only. So wiring, framing, you name it. I personally have an extensive background in electrical wiring, electrical components and custom cabinet building specific to loud speaker enclosures. Like this one,
Next I have a friend who volunteered his home for the grow "lab" as we call it.
Myself and the construction engineer, we'll call him George cause he reminds me of George of the jungle kinda. Like the goofy monkey in the books. Anyway, me and George started discussing the perfect area of the house to grow in. We came up with the bathroom in his master bedroom, lol. Yes, his girl hated it, at first. She's hot so we though it was perfect, maybe catch her, well, never mind you get it. But seriously we decided that for good reasons.
1- it was built with greenboard
2-bath tub is the kind with the surround on it and a little lip all the way around the top, also if you spill something who cares, rinse it away.
3- water supply in the room
4- the outlets have their own GFC in that room and we can pull power from other outlets in the master bedroom if needed.
5-it allowed a straight walk way from door to tub to be created with shelves on either side for multiple veg trays.
6- it was the farthest room from the front door and back door
7-it had ac into the room via the ceiling
So now that we have a room picked out we used a single sheet of 3/4" plywood for the "top" of the flowering chamber, the tub surround would support the remaining three "walls". And these walls are special folks. I have posted a LOT of pic's and vids of this LAB but no one has noticed the walls in the flowering chamber. These walls are not just Mylar tapped up on the tub surround, there are styro foam boards under the Mylar. Each board is one inch thick, cut to fit into the chamber with a slight camber from top to bottom. Laymens terms, they tilt. The bottom of the chamber is 20* inside the top of the chamber. |\ <= kinda like that. If you were to shine a laser pen off the side of the reflector on your light so it showed you the exact line of primary light and secondary light demarcation, on my walls you would be able to follow this beam directly into the sides of the plants. This way very little of the light is wasted by being reflected down towards the ground. I had planned on using two lights from the get go, this way I could cover more of the grow area with equal lumens. There is no weak spot in between the two lights because of the overlap of secondary light by both lamps raise the lumen output to within just a few off from the lumen output at the very center under the light. We tested it with a meter.
Next we did the air exchange issue. I dont want to run co2 in my buddies place so we needed a way to make sure that the amount of air being forced into the flowering chamber is slightly more than that being sucked out by the blower. I use a 6" Dayton axial fan for the intake at the bottom of the chamber's face. I use the a/c in the bathroom to cool both the remaining bathroom area for vegging and the flowering chamber. It's split with a t. then one side is boosted with a duct fan, once it goes into the flowering chamber it blows down on to the lights helping to keep them cool. The blower sucking air out through the filter is 275 cfm an slightly restricted because the filter is attached. SO, by forcing more air in than can be sucked out in the same amount of time I ensure plenty of fresh natural co2 in the flowering chamber. The axial fan is only 235 cfm and I have it restricted by a displacement sheet in front of them opening.
Flowering chamber , perfect.
On to the veg.
Left side of the room is running 1250 ppm for older plants and the right side is running 1000 ppm for the younger plants. Anything below that ppm rating is hand fed by yours truly. All water is RO bought at a store. Ph is 5.6 constant and checked daily. The lights are both T5's from Feliz.
Here's were the bushes begin.
Photosynthesis peaks in the 435nm and 680nm range. A T5 light emits peaks at 435nm and 615nm. This makes a T5 light the most efficient light for veg, hands down, well until plasma lights get popular. T5 bulbs make 96 lumen's per watt which is pretty damn good. Now think about the fact that I have pics in here of me holding a lit T5 in my hands and resting it on the back of my hand, so NO HEAT. Also in test after test on plant after plant, T5 lights used during seedling and clone growth show root growth TWICE that of any other light on the market currently. Also they are designed to run in high humidity environments. So, I use the BEST light to veg with.
This next topic is a touchy one to some people, nutrients. I use one thing and I use the ENTIRE LINE of nutrients as the makers designed it to work fine separately but when used as a whole the results are amazing.
I use Dutch Master Gold Line Nutrients and Liquid Light and Penetrator Foliar feeding programs. They have an online interactive nutrient calculator that takes guessing out of the equation, which I like. Their product reviews were outrageous, so I asked around and concurred they were for me.
You will have to do your own research on these nutes, but you'll see things like ionic charged nutrients to promote vigorous growth, etc. Basically they focus the feeding on the Calvin cycle of the plant. Liquid Light is pretty much just that, light in a bottle. It was designed for small growers with small lights so they could get big yields. It works, no doubt. Penetrator DOUBLES the power of liquid light, hence my garden.
The veg tray on the left uses a 250 watt Feliz 6500k with a gull wing fixture.
the veg tray on the right uses a 150 watt Feliz 6500k with econo wing fixture.
this from DM:
Gold Range LIQUID LIGHT puts your plants into overdrive by helping to restore their lost natural photosynthetic power. Liquid Light does this by providing your plants with selected minerals, carbohydrates, amino-acids and phyto-nutrients that optimizes the Calvin Cycle, a critical cycle of photosynthesis. By restoring a large portion of a plants’ natural genetic photosynthetic speed, or power, plants are able to use a lot more of the precious light you provide them.
I proved this to be true by using it outside on some plants in my front yard that were in the shade almost the whole day (pics in here), at the end of two weeks (4 applications) the ones in the shade were twice the size of those in direct sunlight all day with no LL. SO on to my cannabis it went!!
Left tray 1250 ppm
right tray 1000 ppm,
In the left tray you can clearly see the Train wreck everyone loves before it was SC'd and topped. Compare its foliage to those around it, lol. It pales in comparison. It was recently cloned again is why, the bottom 20 branches came off, I think, might have been more. Here it is before it was hacked up, little baby, about 28 days old
Touchet
New Member
So, when asked why my plants look the way they do, I say;
Because its the best they could possibly look, why don't yours look that way. Think about it, I feed them top of the line nutes imported from Holland, them people can grow flowers. I use the BEST light on the market for vegetative growth and root growth. I foliar feed them. Plants use about as much as their photosynthesis power as we do our brains, not much as opposed to what we could. The foliar feed I use is designed to restore that lost power. The delivery method is designed to double its strength.
My plants are simply running to the peak of what the plant will allow. That's one reason you see slight nute burns from time to time.
Because its the best they could possibly look, why don't yours look that way. Think about it, I feed them top of the line nutes imported from Holland, them people can grow flowers. I use the BEST light on the market for vegetative growth and root growth. I foliar feed them. Plants use about as much as their photosynthesis power as we do our brains, not much as opposed to what we could. The foliar feed I use is designed to restore that lost power. The delivery method is designed to double its strength.
My plants are simply running to the peak of what the plant will allow. That's one reason you see slight nute burns from time to time.
Touchet
New Member
The most specific things I can point out are the air circulation and the lights. I think they are the most important thing in the equation. By using T5 lights there is no need for the plant to stretch. By using the Liquid Light on top of them there is even less need, hence the ridiculously close nodes. By controlling these two factors and how long I keep them in vegetative growth, I top them when they go into flowering to prevent excess stretching during the switch from 6500K to HPS light. This is usually done one to two weeks AFTER they are placed in the chamber depending on strain.
Touchet
New Member
Now, use this info to your advantage in your own garden. You can make as many branches as you want (veg time) with out compromising height! Imagine what you could do with a plant like the one shown above. Once it hits your HPS lights it will stretch some allowing more light to pass into the node zones for flowers.My PG13 has been in flowering for a little over a week now and has stretched evenly across the plany from top to bottom, growth 4 inches.
jebus2029
Well-Known Member
Love it, but do those lower nodes get enough light? I mean it can only penetrate so far. You mentioned it's the t5 lights that cause the short node distance. I think CFL's do too. I've only done a couple of grows with CFL's and they have all had very close nodes. Just not as close as yours, but I get horrible light penetration. You did mention you use HPS for flowering though. Also I have tried foliar feeding but it has resulted in twisting on the leaves, but not burning. Do you have any recommendations for what I can do besides ordering nutes from Holland 
I've asked about it in threads and most people respond that I should never foliar feed. I have tried it before with an extremely weak dose of fox farm nutes which just isn't a good idea. I think it's too concentrated. I can't remember if I tried it with my compost tea or not. Right now I am flowering and using composted cow manure, high phosphorous bat guano, and sucunat brewed in R.O. water. Does this sound like a safe mix to use for foliar feeding? I also tend to go light on the guano just in case it is too strong, but I have been increasing the amount I use. Also how far into flowering do you use it? Do you just spray the leaves or bud too? Top and bottom of the leaves? I'd appreciate any input on the whole concept of foliar feeding, because I have seen the results in videos. I just can't seem to figure out how to do it right. You should do a tutorial. It would benefit a lot of people.
You mentioned liquid light. What is that? A nute?
+Rep to you man, this grow is sick and giving me some great ideas.
I've asked about it in threads and most people respond that I should never foliar feed. I have tried it before with an extremely weak dose of fox farm nutes which just isn't a good idea. I think it's too concentrated. I can't remember if I tried it with my compost tea or not. Right now I am flowering and using composted cow manure, high phosphorous bat guano, and sucunat brewed in R.O. water. Does this sound like a safe mix to use for foliar feeding? I also tend to go light on the guano just in case it is too strong, but I have been increasing the amount I use. Also how far into flowering do you use it? Do you just spray the leaves or bud too? Top and bottom of the leaves? I'd appreciate any input on the whole concept of foliar feeding, because I have seen the results in videos. I just can't seem to figure out how to do it right. You should do a tutorial. It would benefit a lot of people.You mentioned liquid light. What is that? A nute?
+Rep to you man, this grow is sick and giving me some great ideas.
Touchet
New Member
Liquid light is here,Love it, but do those lower nodes get enough light? Yes they do but probably because of the Feliz and Liquid Light combo. I mean it can only penetrate so far. You mentioned it's the t5 lights that cause the short node distance. I think CFL's do too. I've only done a couple of grows with CFL's and they have all had very close nodes. CFL's also cause closer node zones, correct, its the type of light they emit. Just not as close as yours, but I get horrible light penetration. You did mention you use HPS for flowering though. Also I have tried foliar feeding but it has resulted in twisting on the leaves, but not burning. Do you have any recommendations for what I can do besides ordering nutes from Holland
You mentioned liquid light. What is that? A nute?
+Rep to you man, this grow is sick and giving me some great ideas.
http://www.dutchmaster.com.au/?language=english&page=product&product=GOLD_RANGE_LIQUID_LIGHT
and I'll be back after dinner to answer more questions.
Touchet
New Member
And now for the pics DAY 1 WEEK 6;
PG13 is on its 2nd week of 12/12 and trying to take over the chamber already.
back to the tangerine clones one to be named.
I measured the hairs on this one, they are about 3/4 of an inch long,
The branches are all pretty covered with flowers at this point.
The mommies have gone threw EVERY type of stress I could come up with. They are hanging in there though,
Back to the clones,
Now the stuff people refer to as popcorn, the buds under the canopy, here we go,
Some of the medium sized flowers,
a pair of pics, without and with flash under HPS,
On to some of the bigger flowers, the ones you were just looking at are in the middle of this pic surrounded by the bigguns,
PG13 is on its 2nd week of 12/12 and trying to take over the chamber already.
back to the tangerine clones one to be named.
I measured the hairs on this one, they are about 3/4 of an inch long,
The branches are all pretty covered with flowers at this point.
The mommies have gone threw EVERY type of stress I could come up with. They are hanging in there though,
Back to the clones,
Now the stuff people refer to as popcorn, the buds under the canopy, here we go,
Some of the medium sized flowers,
a pair of pics, without and with flash under HPS,
On to some of the bigger flowers, the ones you were just looking at are in the middle of this pic surrounded by the bigguns,
Touchet
New Member
There had been some concern expressed about topping during flowering. The two clones featured in these pics have been topped to give them 4 main cola's each. They were also super cropped and tied back to their square pots to create an even canopy.
Here is one of those four tops that was topped an additional time,
inside the two cola's,
The single "top" in the bottom of the pic is the same size as the pair resulted from topping it during the second week of flower
slightly better angle showing the "pair" with a few more "tops"
another "pair" vs a "solo cola" check the size difference, its very very small at this point from this angle, bottom remember the "pair" is separated much further down so the flowers start further done the branch,
Can you pick out the pairs??
Here is one of those four tops that was topped an additional time,
inside the two cola's,
The single "top" in the bottom of the pic is the same size as the pair resulted from topping it during the second week of flower
slightly better angle showing the "pair" with a few more "tops"
another "pair" vs a "solo cola" check the size difference, its very very small at this point from this angle, bottom remember the "pair" is separated much further down so the flowers start further done the branch,
Can you pick out the pairs??
jebus2029
Well-Known Member
Well I'm definitely going to go to the store and buy some liquid light. They had 4 or 5 different foliar feeding solutions. Which do you use for veg? Also, can you order it online? I could only find reseller information so I guess they only sell online in bulk to vendors.
Do you think topping after you start flowering produces more? I would think those flowers would be behind the rest in ripeness, but you would know better than me. I have also heard the last time you should top or remove branches is 2 weeks before inducing flowering so it has time to recover. Others have said it takes energy away from bud production. Why do you think it is better to top 1-2 weeks into flowering? Is it just so you have more medium sized buds instead of a few huge buds or is it more for controlling height? If the weight comes out the same or better I see the benefits. Huge buds are cool but I prefer mid-sized buds the most.
I love your idea of fluff bud that nug you have your hand next to is huge for being under the canopy.
Do you ever grow in soil? Have you had similar results without using hydroponics? Can I come do an internship with you
Do you think topping after you start flowering produces more? I would think those flowers would be behind the rest in ripeness, but you would know better than me. I have also heard the last time you should top or remove branches is 2 weeks before inducing flowering so it has time to recover. Others have said it takes energy away from bud production. Why do you think it is better to top 1-2 weeks into flowering? Is it just so you have more medium sized buds instead of a few huge buds or is it more for controlling height? If the weight comes out the same or better I see the benefits. Huge buds are cool but I prefer mid-sized buds the most.
I love your idea of fluff bud
that nug you have your hand next to is huge for being under the canopy.Do you ever grow in soil? Have you had similar results without using hydroponics? Can I come do an internship with you
Touchet
New Member
Had problems with the site last night so let me load these now. Just to show everyone I practice what I preach.
nopw you see it,
Now you dont!
you can see where it left the two flowers and lost its main shoot. Those two flowers will now become two large cola's instead of one.
One more time for good measure,
I left a little piece of the stem so you could identify it better in pics,
no photo trickery here folks
And I'll be abck to answer those questions in just a minute jebus, gotta wake and bake, picked up some headband last night, not quite sure if I like it yet.
nopw you see it,
Now you dont!
you can see where it left the two flowers and lost its main shoot. Those two flowers will now become two large cola's instead of one.
One more time for good measure,
I left a little piece of the stem so you could identify it better in pics,
no photo trickery here folks
And I'll be abck to answer those questions in just a minute jebus, gotta wake and bake, picked up some headband last night, not quite sure if I like it yet.
Touchet
New Member
Well I'm definitely going to go to the store and buy some liquid light. They had 4 or 5 different foliar feeding solutions. Which do you use for veg? I use the same Liquid light and penetrator mix, I start using the LL the day they start getting nutes. Also, can you order it online?http://www.hydroponics.net/i/133666 and http://www.hydroponics.net/i/132724 I could only find reseller information so I guess they only sell online in bulk to vendors.
Do you think topping after you start flowering produces more? Its real close when it comes to the actual weight after drying, sometimes more some times a little less and by a little I mean within a half gram.I would think those flowers would be behind the rest in ripeness, but you would know better than me. I have also heard the last time you should top or remove branches is 2 weeks before inducing flowering so it has time to recover. Watch your plant after you cut it or break a little branch off, tell me how long yours takes to seal itself closed and then I'll tell you exactly how long it takes to "recover" Others have said it takes energy away from bud production. Topping in veg cycle cause lower and mid branching to expand right? Well, I top around the first week of flowering IF THE PLANT WAS NOT TOPPED PREVIOUSLY, if it was it all depends on the plant as to when and IF it gets topped in flowering. I dont always top them in flowering, some right before, some during, some never. Topping forces lower and mid growth but since the plant is now flowering, it will force more energy into lower and mid FLOWER production, it's literally the same idea for a different reason. Why do you think it is better to top 1-2 weeks into flowering? Is it just so you have more medium sized buds instead of a few huge buds or is it more for controlling height? If the weight comes out the same or better I see the benefits. Huge buds are cool but I prefer mid-sized buds the most.
I love your idea of fluff bud
Do you ever grow in soil? Have you had similar results without using hydroponics? Can I come do an internship with you
I'm gonna hit the rest of the questions one at a time.
Touchet
New Member
Hopefully it never ends, lol. It all started way back in the day, about 11 years ago, when I first saw this in my back yard.
This however is my first indoor grow. My first grow using hydro as well.
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