Vote NO on prop 19... (great read for anyone that will be voting in november in cali)

[sm0keyrich510]

before you give me hell at least read the info...for those w/ short attention spans go straight to the myths/facts of prop 19... (scroll down) http://votetaxcannabis2010.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-pro-pot-activists-oppose-2010-tax.html

very good read...for those that think its gonna be cheaper..or put an end to a drug war/drug crimes then you are sadly mistaken...

just read it...too much to explain.

i feel as if the whole "vote yes on 19" was just people hopping on board when they heard legal...and...weed in the same sentance....didnt bother to read the fine print.

rather than end all these problems and make it legal and open to a more "fair" market its going to actually become less competitive...prop 215 patients WILL be ruined by this.

read and lets have a great thread...





i might not be popular right now by taking the NO position on this one but someone please sticky until after election day...i think these points are valid with good sources...

thank you.

 

[TokinPodPilot]

Quite possibly one of the best pieces written on this subject to-date. Thank you for linking this.

 

[GanjaAL]

So like I have said many times in light of Mr Lee's business dealings... it was never about legalization but a furtherance of his business plan and the MMJ laws will suffer for it.

 

[sm0keyrich510]

thank god someone is on my side. i tried opposing this here before and i got all kinds of bad responses from people...

most of it just calling me a "drug dealer" or whatnot...


if you ask me the businessmen involved here (the ones that stand to gain from this) are the real dealers...in essence this is going to force the people to buy from big business. with a fee of $200,000+ for a license to sell marijuana thats insane...an alcohol license isnt even close to this...this is intended simply for the rich to get rich and the poor to stay that way.

there will NOT be any $39 oz's available should this get voted in...otherwise that high price for a license doesn't seem worth it anymore.

big business is going to rake in the $ and pretty much make it a monopoly...how can you compete as an individual if you have to pay $200k just to get in the game?

as stated in that article this is all just a magic trick...i really believe so...they just tossed out a $39 per oz figure to get the smokers excited and trick them into voting (they probably assumed no one would actually read prop 19 if they knew voting yes means its legal)...it states that its illegal to purchase from anyone who is NOT licensed to grow it...and the penalty for getting caught 18-20 with possession of less than an oz is greater than it is now...from a $100 fine to $1000...

just a shame...and if its legal why are we only allowed a 5x5 area and 1 oz of dried bud? clearly many will be in violation of the law after their harvest...who cant get more than an oz in a 5x5 area?

its just a trick.

 

[whiteflour]

thank god someone is on my side. i tried opposing this here before and i got all kinds of bad responses from people...

most of it just calling me a "drug dealer" or whatnot...


if you ask me the businessmen involved here (the ones that stand to gain from this) are the real dealers...in essence this is going to force the people to buy from big business. with a fee of $200,000+ for a license to sell marijuana thats insane...an alcohol license isnt even close to this...this is intended simply for the rich to get rich and the poor to stay that way.

there will NOT be any $39 oz's available should this get voted in...otherwise that high price for a license doesn't seem worth it anymore.

big business is going to rake in the $ and pretty much make it a monopoly...how can you compete as an individual if you have to pay $200k just to get in the game?

as stated in that article this is all just a magic trick...i really believe so...they just tossed out a $39 per oz figure to get the smokers excited and trick them into voting (they probably assumed no one would actually read prop 19 if they knew voting yes means its legal)...it states that its illegal to purchase from anyone who is NOT licensed to grow it...and the penalty for getting caught 18-20 with possession of less than an oz is greater than it is now...from a $100 fine to $1000...

just a shame...and if its legal why are we only allowed a 5x5 area and 1 oz of dried bud? clearly many will be in violation of the law after their harvest...who cant get more than an oz in a 5x5 area?

its just a trick.

I call it stoner math. It all adds up if you just don't do the math.

 

[sm0keyrich510]

I call it stoner math. It all adds up if you just don't do the math.

did you not read the article? please read it carefully before telling me i dont know what im talking about...i been preaching this forever it seems like...i presented you with a link containing not OPINIONS...but FACTS...w/ sources...

what more do you want?

you think its just hype? well its not...read it over 1st...and if you still dont think it makes sense then i dont know what to tell you.

 

[TokinPodPilot]

did you not read the article? please read it carefully before telling me i dont know what im talking about...i been preaching this forever it seems like...i presented you with a link containing not OPINIONS...but FACTS...w/ sources...

what more do you want?

you think its just hype? well its not...read it over 1st...and if you still dont think it makes sense then i dont know what to tell you.

Don't waste your breath, mate. That loser has already asserted in another thread that he's only in CA to exploit the medical laws and plans on moving as soon as he's able. As I've continued to assert for months, the only ones who want this bill either stand to profit from it or think that they will. Collaborators and patsies, all. Keep on keepin' on, mate.

 

[sm0keyrich510]

Don't waste your breath, mate. That loser has already asserted in another thread that he's only in CA to exploit the medical laws and plans on moving as soon as he's able. As I've continued to assert for months, the only ones who want this bill either stand to profit from it or think that they will. Collaborators and patsies, all. Keep on keepin' on, mate.

you guys should go over to grasscity then because im having a hell of a time with some of them...i honestly didnt care much about prop 19 when i first heard about it...its only once i truly understood what prop 19 would mean for everyone...its really kinda twisted if you ask me...this is a smooth fast one they are trying to pull here...the only ones that stand to benefit are big business, the government/state, and the junkies if you ask me...

those who truly appreciate marijuana are screwed...

the law is written up so that you'll break it easily...


a 5x5 grow space but only 1 oz of dry bud...and it says that you can only buy from a place that sells marijuana (ie the big businesses that can afford $30K-$200K licenses)...AND you CANNOT sell or buy marijuana from ANYONE other than the businesses...why do you suppose that is?

because its set up to where we are at the mercy of big business...we HAVE to pay whatever they charge...period...with the cost of the license that high you will NOT see $39 oz's...period...why? there wont be enough competition to force them to drop their prices...at least now you can just go to another dealer...with this you HAVE to buy their weed at THEIR prices
same thing

so i know those who support 19 will say, "just grow your own...you're allowed a 5x5 space if you dont want to pay those prices if they are high or its not good quality marijuana"...

well...ok...heres the problems with this:

1) you are only allowed 1oz of bud at a time...(so basically you'll have to buy at least SOME of your marijuana from a business...if you could only harvest 1 oz at a time you would have to buy some at some point unless you RARELY smoke...but an oz lasting 3 months is asking a lot of your average smoker)

2) you are allowed a 5x5 space...you're obviously gonna grow more than 1 oz in a 5x5 space...so at harvest many would be breaking the law right off the bat.


not to mention all the other messed things about this measure...it needs to get shut down...seriously...vote no ppl...

and thank you to anyone on my side finally..haha

 

[EmptyWords]

very good read. i am not from cali but i have been getting annoyed hearing people talk about voting yes in November and not having a clue what they are voting on. The sad thing is the majority of voters will never see this article or even get facts about this law and just vote yes because all they want is legalized marijuana. They will soon find out that it was not what they thought and the law cannot be reversed and they have no one to blame but themselves, but they will though, and they will complain etc but if they didnt take the time to understand the law then they have nothing to complain about because they are the lazy idiots that made this law pass. I hope this law does not pass and maybe one day see a "real" legalization law go into effect but it will take a long time. Thanks for posting this article. +rep

 

[dababydroman]

im not from cali but id vote no. because im guna grow regardless of the law. and thats how we will change the law.

 

[sm0keyrich510]

very good read. i am not from cali but i have been getting annoyed hearing people talk about voting yes in November and not having a clue what they are voting on. The sad thing is the majority of voters will never see this article or even get facts about this law and just vote yes because all they want is legalized marijuana. They will soon find out that it was not what they thought and the law cannot be reversed and they have no one to blame but themselves, but they will though, and they will complain etc but if they didnt take the time to understand the law then they have nothing to complain about because they are the lazy idiots that made this law pass. I hope this law does not pass and maybe one day see a "real" legalization law go into effect but it will take a long time. Thanks for posting this article. +rep

thats what i been trying to get people to understand but the main response i receive is pretty much, "i dont care. im voting yes. i want legal weed" but they dont care at what cost it comes...theres no point in legalizing it if we go a step backwards.

im really hoping by november people understand whats going on...right now the yes v. no on prop 19 is pretty much split...hopefully this isn't neck & neck all the way till the end because it would honestly be a sad day in california if it became legal under these guidelines...too much room for error and too many ways to take advantage of this or be in violation of the laws (even if unintended)

 

[TokinPodPilot]

This would be more of a giant leap backwards. There will always be those who are ready to capitulate to whoever they have to just to feel safe. And they'd throw anyone and everyone they must to the lions to guarantee their piece of the pie. All we can do is keep fighting and passing the word.

 

[whiteflour]

did you not read the article? please read it carefully before telling me i dont know what im talking about...i been preaching this forever it seems like...i presented you with a link containing not OPINIONS...but FACTS...w/ sources...

what more do you want?

you think its just hype? well its not...read it over 1st...and if you still dont think it makes sense then i dont know what to tell you.

Dude, I was agreeing with you. The math in the bill is "fuzzy". I'll be voting NO so long as North Carolina doesn't get MMJ on the ballot this year. If so I'll be absentee voting there.

Don't waste your breath, mate. That loser has already asserted in another thread that he's only in CA to exploit the medical laws and plans on moving as soon as he's able. As I've continued to assert for months, the only ones who want this bill either stand to profit from it or think that they will. Collaborators and patsies, all. Keep on keepin' on, mate.

This guy has no clue. I do plan to move because I can't afford to stay, and why not I have a home and family on the east coast, in a state soon to get MMJ. Idiot.

 

[TokinPodPilot]

From this thread: https://www.rollitup.org/california-patients/350013-prop-19-will-supercede-amend.html

Because NORML is a non-profit organization. Funded by donations. Donations which come from those who currently and stand to make the most money for this. Corporate lobbying.

http://votetaxcannabis2010.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-pro-pot-activists-oppose-2010-tax.html

The real reason NORMAL, the MPP and anyone with three working brain cells oppose this stupid bill. The rest are the ones who stand to profit from corporatization and those whom are happily the Kool-Aid being handed out by Dick Lee.

Sorry. I never bothered to see what NORML's view was. I'm glad they weren't paid off and have a clue.

Try again.

 

[whiteflour]

Exactly. I was explaining "corporate lobbying" .... I had never looked at NORML's position on this. I've never liked this bill from the second I read it. Unlike most people I usually don't bother with politics unless its something I feel passionately about. I'd rather abstain than vote for the wrong thing. This one I KNOW is bad.

 

[boofin]

Allow mw to play Devils Advocate here... I read this article and have a few thoughts of my own

First of all, I am against big business in any form, I refuse to shop at Walmarx, I like to buy groceries from the farmers market etc... So I am opposed to the bill in the standpoint that BIG business would be the only business to afford the Lic fee. However, I feel that $200K is a large price to pay up front but i think that with an adequate business plan and a loan for about $300K you could have a BOOMING business and have that paid off with short order. I think it is important to realize that this is more than an bill to "legalize it". This is a plan to make the plants accessable to adults while generating revenue for the state (it always comes back to teh $)___ I agree that in a utopian world all would be legal etc etc etc. Lets face the facts, $ makes the world go around and this bill is a means to make MJ accessable to every adult without abusing the medicinal system already in place ( i feel that this is important for the rest of teh US where some patients are not allowed access to medicine, but I digress )

#s 2 and 3
Use around minors, Yes the law states "..." and we need to keep MJ away from children until they have matured both physically and developmentally. ( I can discuss this in great detail if anybody would like... I worked inpatient rehab for quite some time). Also, I believe that it is correct to prosecute adults who contribute to the delinquency of minors. Plus this is going to be rather difficult to; a) enforce this statute and b) prosecute said statute

Myth 4: That is pretty much BS IMO- it all comes back to making $, this means you will have little choice but to visit a local shop

Myth 5: "And if you do buy from a licensed dispensary, better keep your receipts, because the burden of proof will be on you". Utter BS, the burden of proof has been and always will be on the prosecution. Prove that I didnt buy from the state

Myth 7: Where are you getting this information? (im not being cocky, i didnt find it and am not motivated to go read through all of that again)

Myths 8-9: Once again, suggestive language but only to the fact that $200K is too expensive for everybody. I have discussed the earlier....

I have some stuff to do so I can come back and finish this later if need be but I think i get my point across. Yes, this is an underhanded law but the result is adults will be able to have MJ and it will decrease the abuse of the medical system (which is hurting patients elsewhere). It is a system that will generate revenue and it is a step in the right direction. MMJ Patients will be unaffected (no matter what the new law states, they still have the MMJ law to back them up). Those who wish to continue to fight the system and remain rogue will be just doing whatever it is they do now, but with less strings for LEO follow (any adult will be able to buy seeds, clones and grow supplies without scrutiny). Your local guy who cant afford the $ will still be able to do his thing, you can still go see him and if you get stopped with an Oz or less, well I just hope youre not driving and baked

Look guys and girls. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that anybody should be allowed to grow whatever plants they choose, in a free country we should be free.

Rome wasnt built in a day

 

[whiteflour]

The result is a detriment to the cause. They are simply playing off the fact you all think this will be "legal". It won't be anymore legal than it is now. For those of us that have a medical card it will be worse, so guess what? We won't be buying them. So you won't be getting any more weed. We'll be sitting at home growing for ourself while you're still buying $400/zips and $50/shwag.

This market will be determined by the black market price, not the market price. The market supply will go down, and the black market will go up. This will have an opposite effect than what you think, and it will make bullshit weed more prevalent. Taxes on end goods are never for the consumers benefit, taxes on services are. Who's providing a service here? They want me to buy goods.

 

[boofin]

I fail to see how this would make MJ any less legal. If anything it takes away the abuse of the healthcare system. I see MASSIVE issues with people abusing prescribed medication. Someone goign and gettign a Rx for MMJ just so they can "get high" is no different than someone goign and faking back pain to get narcotic meds to "get high". The MMJ grower/patient will still be covered by the existing MMJ laws. Nothing will change for them

At risk of flaming here ( I am really not trying to induce flaming ). It seems to me that the major issue at hand from the post is that it would cost $200K for the license to sell cultivate and distribute MJ. This is very costly and will push out the "little guy" (in the legal distribution arena anyway). It is set up so that those with money can monopolize the market and do whatever they please. I am not a fan of this either. I dislike big business in every way I could possible say. But for those people who enjoy MJ and would like to use it recreationally, this is a great jumping off point.

 

[TokinPodPilot]

I fail to see how this would make MJ any less legal. If anything it takes away the abuse of the healthcare system. I see MASSIVE issues with people abusing prescribed medication. Someone goign and gettign a Rx for MMJ just so they can "get high" is no different than someone goign and faking back pain to get narcotic meds to "get high". The MMJ grower/patient will still be covered by the existing MMJ laws. Nothing will change for them

At risk of flaming here ( I am really not trying to induce flaming ). It seems to me that the major issue at hand from the post is that it would cost $200K for the license to sell cultivate and distribute MJ. This is very costly and will push out the "little guy" (in the legal distribution arena anyway). It is set up so that those with money can monopolize the market and do whatever they please. I am not a fan of this either. I dislike big business in every way I could possible say. But for those people who enjoy MJ and would like to use it recreationally, this is a great jumping off point.

You fail indeed. For one, there isn't an abuse of the healthcare system or even of the medical marijuana program. Prop 215 was purposely written so that ANYONE, with the concurrence of a medical provider, could benefit from medical cannabis. Not just certain classes of sick people.... all people. This really needs to be understood. The intent of Prop 215 isn't being wrongfully exploited, it's being effectively utilized. If it makes your life better and your/a doctor agrees, you get a recommendation, not a prescription. And as an underground industry, I think we as growers have done a pretty damn good job of showing how an industry can work when comprised of small and medium entities and not commoditized. We've done a fair amount to inject life into the communities where we live and grow and have had to do so under some pretty damn heavy legal artillery fire. This bill has nothing to protect growers, patients, or even recreational users. Just restrictions and a whole lot of ambiguous language that is easily misinterpreted by law enforcement and or local government.

Honest growers and members of the cannabis community are more than willing to pay our fair share of the economic load. In fact, we have done so. Sales tax, business licenses, gods only know how much in legal and court fees, building services, basic living fees, hiring temporary or full-time help, property rentals... the list goes on. All of it legitimate stuff made illegitimate just because it's cannabis-related.

And for those that would like to use it recreationally...

http://www.oaklandnorml.org/cms/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=488

If you want real progress, then talk to these people. The one thing that no one can deny is that Prop 19 does set up a fair number of circumstances and regulations regarding not only the possession of cannabis, but also the how and where of your cannabis use. What the proponents of the bill don't want you to know is that under current law, the same ounce everyone is drooling over suddenly being able to have is currently only a misdemeanor(soon to be infraction.... c'mon Ammiano, don't fail us, now) and a relatively minor $100 slap on the wrist fee. No rules on where you got your pot from or where you consumed it outside of the normal rules of civilized society (no public drunk and disorderly, obviously). Prop 19 is a jumping off point to greater Prohibition and more arrests.

 

[sm0keyrich510]

............

The result is a detriment to the cause. They are simply playing off the fact you all think this will be "legal". It won't be anymore legal than it is now. For those of us that have a medical card it will be worse, so guess what? We won't be buying them. So you won't be getting any more weed. We'll be sitting at home growing for ourself while you're still buying $400/zips and $50/shwag.

This market will be determined by the black market price, not the market price. The market supply will go down, and the black market will go up. This will have an opposite effect than what you think, and it will make bullshit weed more prevalent. Taxes on end goods are never for the consumers benefit, taxes on services are. Who's providing a service here? They want me to buy goods.

Allow mw to play Devils Advocate here... I read this article and have a few thoughts of my own

First of all, I am against big business in any form, I refuse to shop at Walmarx, I like to buy groceries from the farmers market etc... So I am opposed to the bill in the standpoint that BIG business would be the only business to afford the Lic fee. However, I feel that $200K is a large price to pay up front but i think that with an adequate business plan and a loan for about $300K you could have a BOOMING business and have that paid off with short order. I think it is important to realize that this is more than an bill to "legalize it". This is a plan to make the plants accessable to adults while generating revenue for the state (it always comes back to teh $)___ I agree that in a utopian world all would be legal etc etc etc. Lets face the facts, $ makes the world go around and this bill is a means to make MJ accessable to every adult without abusing the medicinal system already in place ( i feel that this is important for the rest of teh US where some patients are not allowed access to medicine, but I digress )

#s 2 and 3
Use around minors, Yes the law states "..." and we need to keep MJ away from children until they have matured both physically and developmentally. ( I can discuss this in great detail if anybody would like... I worked inpatient rehab for quite some time). Also, I believe that it is correct to prosecute adults who contribute to the delinquency of minors. Plus this is going to be rather difficult to; a) enforce this statute and b) prosecute said statute

Myth 4: That is pretty much BS IMO- it all comes back to making $, this means you will have little choice but to visit a local shop

Myth 5: "And if you do buy from a licensed dispensary, better keep your receipts, because the burden of proof will be on you". Utter BS, the burden of proof has been and always will be on the prosecution. Prove that I didnt buy from the state

Myth 7: Where are you getting this information? (im not being cocky, i didnt find it and am not motivated to go read through all of that again)

Myths 8-9: Once again, suggestive language but only to the fact that $200K is too expensive for everybody. I have discussed the earlier....

I have some stuff to do so I can come back and finish this later if need be but I think i get my point across. Yes, this is an underhanded law but the result is adults will be able to have MJ and it will decrease the abuse of the medical system (which is hurting patients elsewhere). It is a system that will generate revenue and it is a step in the right direction. MMJ Patients will be unaffected (no matter what the new law states, they still have the MMJ law to back them up). Those who wish to continue to fight the system and remain rogue will be just doing whatever it is they do now, but with less strings for LEO follow (any adult will be able to buy seeds, clones and grow supplies without scrutiny). Your local guy who cant afford the $ will still be able to do his thing, you can still go see him and if you get stopped with an Oz or less, well I just hope youre not driving and baked

Look guys and girls. I truly believe in my heart of hearts that anybody should be allowed to grow whatever plants they choose, in a free country we should be free.

Rome wasnt built in a day

I fail to see how this would make MJ any less legal. If anything it takes away the abuse of the healthcare system. I see MASSIVE issues with people abusing prescribed medication. Someone goign and gettign a Rx for MMJ just so they can "get high" is no different than someone goign and faking back pain to get narcotic meds to "get high". The MMJ grower/patient will still be covered by the existing MMJ laws. Nothing will change for them

At risk of flaming here ( I am really not trying to induce flaming ). It seems to me that the major issue at hand from the post is that it would cost $200K for the license to sell cultivate and distribute MJ. This is very costly and will push out the "little guy" (in the legal distribution arena anyway). It is set up so that those with money can monopolize the market and do whatever they please. I am not a fan of this either. I dislike big business in every way I could possible say. But for those people who enjoy MJ and would like to use it recreationally, this is a great jumping off point.

You fail indeed. For one, there isn't an abuse of the healthcare system or even of the medical marijuana program. Prop 215 was purposely written so that ANYONE, with the concurrence of a medical provider, could benefit from medical cannabis. Not just certain classes of sick people.... all people. This really needs to be understood. The intent of Prop 215 isn't being wrongfully exploited, it's being effectively utilized. If it makes your life better and your/a doctor agrees, you get a recommendation, not a prescription. And as an underground industry, I think we as growers have done a pretty damn good job of showing how an industry can work when comprised of small and medium entities and not commoditized. We've done a fair amount to inject life into the communities where we live and grow and have had to do so under some pretty damn heavy legal artillery fire. This bill has nothing to protect growers, patients, or even recreational users. Just restrictions and a whole lot of ambiguous language that is easily misinterpreted by law enforcement and or local government.

Honest growers and members of the cannabis community are more than willing to pay our fair share of the economic load. In fact, we have done so. Sales tax, business licenses, gods only know how much in legal and court fees, building services, basic living fees, hiring temporary or full-time help, property rentals... the list goes on. All of it legitimate stuff made illegitimate just because it's cannabis-related.

And for those that would like to use it recreationally...

http://www.oaklandnorml.org/cms/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=488

If you want real progress, then talk to these people. The one thing that no one can deny is that Prop 19 does set up a fair number of circumstances and regulations regarding not only the possession of cannabis, but also the how and where of your cannabis use. What the proponents of the bill don't want you to know is that under current law, the same ounce everyone is drooling over suddenly being able to have is currently only a misdemeanor(soon to be infraction.... c'mon Ammiano, don't fail us, now) and a relatively minor $100 slap on the wrist fee. No rules on where you got your pot from or where you consumed it outside of the normal rules of civilized society (no public drunk and disorderly, obviously). Prop 19 is a jumping off point to greater Prohibition and more arrests.