L.E.D lighting from HTGSUPPLY
- Thread starter Ralphie
- Start date
woodsmaneh!
Well-Known Member
This is informative and came from
http://www.prosourceworldwide.com/category_s/51.htm
nice to see the industry growing up and policing it's self.
Our new section called "Truth in Advertising" is meant to inform you what some of the more popular misconceptions are in regards to LED Grow Lights and what is factual vs. what sounds good to the general public.
1) The LED wattage is of particular importance as many companies are using the 2W, 3W, 5W, 6W or even higher wattage LEDs and claiming that they are more powerful and thus creating a more productive flowering cycle. The truth is that there is no more efficient LED than the High-Intensity 1W 10mm Diode. The reason being is the input vs. output ratio drops off dramatically the higher wattage LED that is used, and the way you know this to be true is if you test your light with a voltage meter to see the actual power consumption of your light. Our 90W UFO with all 1W Diodes draws between 80-85 watts depending on temperature, where a 90W UFO comprised of all 3W Diodes will draw between 55-60 watts of consumption power. The point is that it sounds good to hear a higher wattage LED being used, but the truth of the matter is that you are actually losing your overall power output by using these inefficient higher-wattage LEDs.
2) The Brand name of the LEDs being used in lights is a popular marketing tool to advertise such brand names as Cree or Bridgelux. The truth is that both Cree and Bridgelux both specialize in producing high Lumen LEDs that are used for commercial lighting like street lighting or commercial buildings. Horticulture lighting is a specialty field and very few manufacturers in the world that produce LEDs that are appropriate for horticultural purposes.
3) LED Lights that are significantly cheaper than other lights should raise a red flag right away. The truth is that to use a precision LED that is an authentic 10mm (High-Intensity) 1W Diode is expensive, and to get around this cost issue, some companies use the 5mm diodes, which are significantly less powerful than the 10mm diodes, thus resulting in a poor performance. There are a number of ways to skimp on the cost of manufacturing a quality LED Grow Light that produces results that are equivalent to HPS lighting, so beware of low-priced LED Lights that sound too good to be true.
4) The number of "Bands of Frequencies" used is of significant importance to photosynthetic activity. There are 3 photosynthetic processes that occur; Chlorophyll A, Chlorophyll B & Carotenoids. To address these processes you would need a minimum of 3 Bands, and to bring the full potential of your plants photosynthetic ability, you will need 2 of these Bands to be duplicated in more than on spectral output. This is why we use 5 Bands in our lights, any more would be redundant and done so with an off-peak frequency. Some companies advertise as much as 10 or 11 Bands, and although this sounds good in theory, in reality it is using the same principles that makes an HPS light only capable of emitting 15% of absorbable light to your plants and this defeats the whole efficiency concept behind the use of LEDs.
5) Lastly, the choice of which company to purchase your LED Grow Light is ultimately up to you, and we try to provide you with as much detailed information as we can to help you make a more informed decision. To better ensure you are getting what you pay for, make sure the company has been in business for several years and they offer a guarantee of performance and stand behind the product they are selling to the public. The best way to really determine if you're buying a quality light is to talk to the company and ask questions. It will become abundantly clear as to whether they know what they're doing or not in very short order.
http://www.prosourceworldwide.com/category_s/51.htm
nice to see the industry growing up and policing it's self.
Our new section called "Truth in Advertising" is meant to inform you what some of the more popular misconceptions are in regards to LED Grow Lights and what is factual vs. what sounds good to the general public.
1) The LED wattage is of particular importance as many companies are using the 2W, 3W, 5W, 6W or even higher wattage LEDs and claiming that they are more powerful and thus creating a more productive flowering cycle. The truth is that there is no more efficient LED than the High-Intensity 1W 10mm Diode. The reason being is the input vs. output ratio drops off dramatically the higher wattage LED that is used, and the way you know this to be true is if you test your light with a voltage meter to see the actual power consumption of your light. Our 90W UFO with all 1W Diodes draws between 80-85 watts depending on temperature, where a 90W UFO comprised of all 3W Diodes will draw between 55-60 watts of consumption power. The point is that it sounds good to hear a higher wattage LED being used, but the truth of the matter is that you are actually losing your overall power output by using these inefficient higher-wattage LEDs.
2) The Brand name of the LEDs being used in lights is a popular marketing tool to advertise such brand names as Cree or Bridgelux. The truth is that both Cree and Bridgelux both specialize in producing high Lumen LEDs that are used for commercial lighting like street lighting or commercial buildings. Horticulture lighting is a specialty field and very few manufacturers in the world that produce LEDs that are appropriate for horticultural purposes.
3) LED Lights that are significantly cheaper than other lights should raise a red flag right away. The truth is that to use a precision LED that is an authentic 10mm (High-Intensity) 1W Diode is expensive, and to get around this cost issue, some companies use the 5mm diodes, which are significantly less powerful than the 10mm diodes, thus resulting in a poor performance. There are a number of ways to skimp on the cost of manufacturing a quality LED Grow Light that produces results that are equivalent to HPS lighting, so beware of low-priced LED Lights that sound too good to be true.
4) The number of "Bands of Frequencies" used is of significant importance to photosynthetic activity. There are 3 photosynthetic processes that occur; Chlorophyll A, Chlorophyll B & Carotenoids. To address these processes you would need a minimum of 3 Bands, and to bring the full potential of your plants photosynthetic ability, you will need 2 of these Bands to be duplicated in more than on spectral output. This is why we use 5 Bands in our lights, any more would be redundant and done so with an off-peak frequency. Some companies advertise as much as 10 or 11 Bands, and although this sounds good in theory, in reality it is using the same principles that makes an HPS light only capable of emitting 15% of absorbable light to your plants and this defeats the whole efficiency concept behind the use of LEDs.
5) Lastly, the choice of which company to purchase your LED Grow Light is ultimately up to you, and we try to provide you with as much detailed information as we can to help you make a more informed decision. To better ensure you are getting what you pay for, make sure the company has been in business for several years and they offer a guarantee of performance and stand behind the product they are selling to the public. The best way to really determine if you're buying a quality light is to talk to the company and ask questions. It will become abundantly clear as to whether they know what they're doing or not in very short order.
WattSaver
Well-Known Member
Before you give up on LED one last thought. It sounds like you are setting up in a conditioned room and are probably not thinking about penetrations in the outside walls for venting. This takes CO2 use out of the picture, so keeping temps down is a must. If you plan on putting the full 4x8 space into flowering then you'll need at least 2 600w HPS. They will have to be vented if you office doesn't have A/C you'll turn it into a bakery. My advise would be to use half for flower and put a light tight veg box in the other half, you can use the top as a work bench and then you would have the head room to install a filter and fans above it. Or get a smaller tent 4x4 and have a veg box outside it and then it doesn't have to be light tight.
LED do work but I believe you need more wattage than the claims. It's the same with HID 600w will work on a 4x4 space but you'll get more pop with 1000w. Pick what's going to work best in your environment. Here's a few photos for thought.
Day 17 of FlowerView attachment 1107630
Day 23 of FlowerView attachment 1107633
For Veg use floro tubes cheap and very effective for seeds and veg state.
Simple cheap veg box. veg clones on day 24 after cutting
So I'll have to wait and see what the final yield is going to be but the LED's do work. For the next grow I do want to add a second fixture, same thought as with HID, "More Watts More Pop"
Attachments
Well Ive completley changed my plans
Im not going to use ANY LEDS.. I might get a couple down the road, but for now im off em
What i will use is:
2 X 600 WATT MH HPS bulbs, i dont need harvest after harvest, so I will do complete grows, if i get even a half pound off of this(which I think I will get more) it will last me 6 months or more, enough time to do another grow.. i dont smoke alot
with those bulbs im growing 25 plants(femenized) assuming they all germinate and theres no hermies.. so lets say 20
ill be using advanced nutrients FULL line along with one of the Co2 boost buckets and proper ventilation to keep co2 in the tent
also the room outside the tent is only a 10x10 room.. im cooling it with 10,000 BTUs of AC.. so i know ill be good with heat
Im not going to use ANY LEDS.. I might get a couple down the road, but for now im off em
What i will use is:
2 X 600 WATT MH HPS bulbs, i dont need harvest after harvest, so I will do complete grows, if i get even a half pound off of this(which I think I will get more) it will last me 6 months or more, enough time to do another grow.. i dont smoke alot
with those bulbs im growing 25 plants(femenized) assuming they all germinate and theres no hermies.. so lets say 20
ill be using advanced nutrients FULL line along with one of the Co2 boost buckets and proper ventilation to keep co2 in the tent
also the room outside the tent is only a 10x10 room.. im cooling it with 10,000 BTUs of AC.. so i know ill be good with heat
Cannabist Communist
Member
Just hang on a sec, Ralphie. I've found some really reliable LED studies, grows, and side-by-side comparisons which demonstrate conclusively that LEDs emit more than enough light for even huge plants, their foliar penetration is actually slightly better than HIDs, and their intensity diminshes much less than an HID at a range of twelve inches:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=160147
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=184542
I do apologize for linking to another forum, but please understand that I do it for educational purposes only and not to undermine RIU. Anyhow, in the first thread, the user hazy uses a 205 watt LED lamp by Hydro Grow LED (HGL), who claims that it will match the intensity of his 400 watt HPS. The owner of HGL, herein known as LEDGirl, supplied him with the lamp for free for the purposes of this test. She compares the PAR values of her lamps with a 600 watt MH and a Lumigrow LED lamp composed of five watt diodes in this thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=173290
Her 345 watter had approximately 41.1% more PAR than the 600 watt MH, and a whopping 69.8% more than the Lumigrow, at the same distance. Thus confirming what was said about one watt diodes being more efficient than three, five or six watt diodes. This huge gap is due in large part to the use of one watt diodes with a spectral angle of sixty degrees instead of the common hundred and twenty degree (wide) angle used by most cheap competitors, giving them much greater foliar penetration, yet reducing the lightprint. However, not only are the one watt diodes more efficient, but they spread out the light with greater numbers in good spacial ratios; helping to minimize the impact of the reduced lightprint.
Now coming back to hazy's comparative study:
In the first comparative study, which attempted to match the light intensity of the lamps used for a comparison of quantity and quality, hazy grew two clones from three different mothers of different strains; Sugar Shack, Sour Diesel, and Chem4, one of each per lamp. In the end, the HID outyielded the LED as follows:
Sugar Shack:
LED: 29.1g; 85% of HID; 15% less
HID: 34.2g; 118% of LED; 18% more
Sour Diesel:
LED: 59.9g; 85% of HID; 15% less
HID: 70.4g; 118% of LED; 18% more
Chem4:
LED: 27.3g; 65% of HID; 35% less
HID: 41.9g; 154% of LED; 54% more
Total Yield:
LED: 116.3g; 79.5% of HID; 20.5% less
HID: 146.5g; 126% of LED; 26% more
Average Yield:
LED: 38.8g; 78% of HID; 22% less
HID: 48.8g; 126% of LED; 26% more
I must note that this was hazy's first LED attempt, and these are very comparable results for a first timer. No doubt his yields will improve with more practice with new technology. I carefully looked at the well documented pictures and compared each plant during all stages of development, and I must say; LEDs look quite promising, and all of my doubts have been dispelled. He grew out some rather large plants, proving that you can grow large plants and yield big buds with LEDs, you just have to have the right ones and enough wattage. While the HID outyielded the LEDs, the actual size of the live plants and growth were very close at all points during the grow, and it looked to be a very close race, indeed. It's clear that the intensity of light packs on the growth, reducing node spacing, creating more budsites during vegetative growth, and packing on stockier, fuller buds. And in my own opinion, the LED buds got noticeably frostier; awesome trichome development, and without UV supplementation. The HID buds did get longer and larger, but hazy noted that they were much airier and considerably less dense. And in hazy's opinion, the LED buds tasted better and were noticeably more potent. Two out of three taste testers of this crop agreed that the LED bud was superior in certain traits in a blind study, though they each admitted that they were very similar, and chose their favorites based upon preferred minor character traits.
In the second thread, hazy puts the 205 watter together with another 345 watter gifted to him again by LEDGirl for the purposes of comparing it with the 400 watt HPS watt for watt in drawn power. The LEDs drew 455 watts together, and the HID drew 484 watts. Not the same, but close enough to compare watt for watt. And even though the draw was less, the total rating (550 watts) of both LED lamps is greater than the rating of the HPS, so give'n'take; more or less. Hazy didn't list the individual strain weights for this study, but the totals were as follows:
LED: 406.9g; 198.9% of HID; 98.9% more
HID: 204.6g; 50.3% of LED; 49.7% less
That's almost double the yield of HIDs per watt! Even though HTG uses "wide angle" LEDs, their spectrums are virtually identical, and I'm sure they'll produce good results. I know that you're gonna play it safe, Ralphie, but I hope that this will give you the confidence to experiment with 'em one day. And to close with more corroborating evidence, here's a collection of photos from various comparative and non-comparative LED grows on ICMag compiled by LEDGirl:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=169532
Cannabinoidally yours,
The Cannabist Communist
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=160147
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=184542
I do apologize for linking to another forum, but please understand that I do it for educational purposes only and not to undermine RIU. Anyhow, in the first thread, the user hazy uses a 205 watt LED lamp by Hydro Grow LED (HGL), who claims that it will match the intensity of his 400 watt HPS. The owner of HGL, herein known as LEDGirl, supplied him with the lamp for free for the purposes of this test. She compares the PAR values of her lamps with a 600 watt MH and a Lumigrow LED lamp composed of five watt diodes in this thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=173290
Her 345 watter had approximately 41.1% more PAR than the 600 watt MH, and a whopping 69.8% more than the Lumigrow, at the same distance. Thus confirming what was said about one watt diodes being more efficient than three, five or six watt diodes. This huge gap is due in large part to the use of one watt diodes with a spectral angle of sixty degrees instead of the common hundred and twenty degree (wide) angle used by most cheap competitors, giving them much greater foliar penetration, yet reducing the lightprint. However, not only are the one watt diodes more efficient, but they spread out the light with greater numbers in good spacial ratios; helping to minimize the impact of the reduced lightprint.
Now coming back to hazy's comparative study:
In the first comparative study, which attempted to match the light intensity of the lamps used for a comparison of quantity and quality, hazy grew two clones from three different mothers of different strains; Sugar Shack, Sour Diesel, and Chem4, one of each per lamp. In the end, the HID outyielded the LED as follows:
Sugar Shack:
LED: 29.1g; 85% of HID; 15% less
HID: 34.2g; 118% of LED; 18% more
Sour Diesel:
LED: 59.9g; 85% of HID; 15% less
HID: 70.4g; 118% of LED; 18% more
Chem4:
LED: 27.3g; 65% of HID; 35% less
HID: 41.9g; 154% of LED; 54% more
Total Yield:
LED: 116.3g; 79.5% of HID; 20.5% less
HID: 146.5g; 126% of LED; 26% more
Average Yield:
LED: 38.8g; 78% of HID; 22% less
HID: 48.8g; 126% of LED; 26% more
I must note that this was hazy's first LED attempt, and these are very comparable results for a first timer. No doubt his yields will improve with more practice with new technology. I carefully looked at the well documented pictures and compared each plant during all stages of development, and I must say; LEDs look quite promising, and all of my doubts have been dispelled. He grew out some rather large plants, proving that you can grow large plants and yield big buds with LEDs, you just have to have the right ones and enough wattage. While the HID outyielded the LEDs, the actual size of the live plants and growth were very close at all points during the grow, and it looked to be a very close race, indeed. It's clear that the intensity of light packs on the growth, reducing node spacing, creating more budsites during vegetative growth, and packing on stockier, fuller buds. And in my own opinion, the LED buds got noticeably frostier; awesome trichome development, and without UV supplementation. The HID buds did get longer and larger, but hazy noted that they were much airier and considerably less dense. And in hazy's opinion, the LED buds tasted better and were noticeably more potent. Two out of three taste testers of this crop agreed that the LED bud was superior in certain traits in a blind study, though they each admitted that they were very similar, and chose their favorites based upon preferred minor character traits.
In the second thread, hazy puts the 205 watter together with another 345 watter gifted to him again by LEDGirl for the purposes of comparing it with the 400 watt HPS watt for watt in drawn power. The LEDs drew 455 watts together, and the HID drew 484 watts. Not the same, but close enough to compare watt for watt. And even though the draw was less, the total rating (550 watts) of both LED lamps is greater than the rating of the HPS, so give'n'take; more or less. Hazy didn't list the individual strain weights for this study, but the totals were as follows:
LED: 406.9g; 198.9% of HID; 98.9% more
HID: 204.6g; 50.3% of LED; 49.7% less
That's almost double the yield of HIDs per watt! Even though HTG uses "wide angle" LEDs, their spectrums are virtually identical, and I'm sure they'll produce good results. I know that you're gonna play it safe, Ralphie, but I hope that this will give you the confidence to experiment with 'em one day. And to close with more corroborating evidence, here's a collection of photos from various comparative and non-comparative LED grows on ICMag compiled by LEDGirl:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=169532
Cannabinoidally yours,
The Cannabist Communist
+rep for that info
however whats done is done
this time next year I will grow with LEDs and by then, hopfully they will be that much more awesome
but unfortunatley the order is placed and arriving today so whatever.. its done with
great info though
I might pop in a couple of UFos throughout the grow and add some autoflowers.. maybe we will see
however whats done is done
this time next year I will grow with LEDs and by then, hopfully they will be that much more awesome
but unfortunatley the order is placed and arriving today so whatever.. its done with
great info though
I might pop in a couple of UFos throughout the grow and add some autoflowers.. maybe we will see
smokefrogg
Active Member
the hgl sales rep chick is lame, simply due to her i'd so rather go with any of their competition
Serapis
Well-Known Member
That is a pretty poor attitude and it only serves to disenfranchise you entirely. They sell good LED lights. If you were truly in the market for them, you would have to consider their lights as well. I don't buy that you would skip them simply because you don't like LEDGirl.... That's just silly....
smokefrogg
Active Member
she's ridiculous as an ambassador for the company
there is no shortage of competition in a similar price bracket also with a good product, i have considered her product as well as several others, of course i looked at the data and some grows that were done with her equipment, i'm not ready to bite on a more serious led lamp than i have yet but it is definitely in my future
it'd be silly to support a company that allows the antics i've seen from that representative, it's my hard earned dollars and i choose to direct them elsewhere, she helped make that decision pretty easy as far as whom to avoid
--- p.s. - hgl vs. lumigrow - https://www.icmag.com/modules/Journal/viewentry.php?journalid=631 <--- this is a good non biased one imho (hgl IS a sponsor of icmag and they have their own forum there with which they can delete and edit posts and comments....this grow journal is NOT under the hgl forum of icmag so she has zero power to edit things so they are in her biased slant)
Ok! I've read through all this and now I have a little information for you. I'm Growing with 4 90w led ufo's and a 400w hps/mh lights. I am veging them with just the led's for now to see how they do(so far great). I plan on turning on the 400w hps light along with the led's for flowering. I'm in a 41"x41"x7' space. I have 6 plants in this space. 3 white widow, 2 blueberry kush & 1 dirty harry. All growing in dirt. I'm experimenting with the led's. It sounds like thats what you want to do to but are afraid you might waste your money. I had the same thoughts. But I want to see for myself. And the only way you can do that is to do it! Good luck with your grow brother! Peace.
johnnycash
Active Member
Best flowering on the market. Do the home work on this.
http://tgchydro.com/hydroponics/
Check out Kessil
http://tgchydro.com/hydroponics/
Check out Kessil
smokefrogg
Active Member
kessil looks interesting, haven't seen this one listed anywhere yet, reading up right now, thanks for the head's up johnnycash!
here's a little breakdown of how their led tech works, good stuff, interesting how they cram the leds so close to each other:
http://www.kessil.com/about/different_breed_of_led.php
hmmmmm:
growin4it
Active Member
I've been looking into this subject myself, and have a couple questions I would appreciate any info!!
Currently my setup is one 4x4tent for veg, with 2 400w MH's, and one 4x8tent for flower, with 2 1000w HPS's. I would like to expand to three 4x8tents, 1 for veg and 2 for flower, but I can't spare any more electricity. If I use 3 300w LED's per flower tent, will my yield be equal to or higher than what I get from the 2 1000's? (anywhere from 1-3lbs usually) because if I do that setup, I would have more than enough electric to power all three tents. I just don't know if the LEDs work as well as the website claims, if they are reliable, dependable, etc.... Thanks in advance for any help!
Currently my setup is one 4x4tent for veg, with 2 400w MH's, and one 4x8tent for flower, with 2 1000w HPS's. I would like to expand to three 4x8tents, 1 for veg and 2 for flower, but I can't spare any more electricity. If I use 3 300w LED's per flower tent, will my yield be equal to or higher than what I get from the 2 1000's? (anywhere from 1-3lbs usually) because if I do that setup, I would have more than enough electric to power all three tents. I just don't know if the LEDs work as well as the website claims, if they are reliable, dependable, etc.... Thanks in advance for any help!
potpimp
Sector 5 Moderator
I've done 4 grows with LEDs, three with lights from HTG. They are the exact same lights as seen on fleabay for half the price; I've bought both. LEDs are great for vegging but you are not going to get nearly as much bud as with HID lights; I can tell you from side-by-side experiments I have done. My advice would be to buy a premium quality HID (they are cheaper than the "budget" systems!).
There are rally good LED companies out there. If I were you I would buy a 350w panel from GrowLEDHydro.com or AdvancedLED They use some 3 watt bulbs with their mostly 1w bulbs for added penetration. Ater reading grows from guys like IrishBoy (look him up) in these forums, I feel like I would only go with one of those two. I have a 600w panel from Ebay, I've flowered with it and it worked well, but the added 50w would probably make a huge difference.
Cannabist Communist
Member
Just thought I'd get the right info out there. I understand your position, and maybe if I'd gotten this to ya sooner, things might be different. But what matters is the fact that you know, and you may experiment in the future, and hey, growin' weed is growin' weed, and I think that's a good thing whether you're using HIDs, or LEDs, or whatever.
Good luck with everything, I just hope you have good grows.Pardon me for plugging HGL, I don't mean to advertise or attempt product placement. These are just the best LEDs I've seen so far, in action and on paper, and the test grows with 'em are pretty rock solid. I too have heard some rather unsavory things about her, but that doesn't change the fact that she has a good product. I could give a fuck less about stingy capitalists; I'm concerned with results. If you know of something better, lemme know.
whietiger88101
New Member
1000 watt hps = 110,000 lumes ! OMG ! what type of lumes does LEDS puts out ? my 400 watt Hps 55,000 from HTGsupply. I have tried CFl's dont impress me but do work ok... LEDS i have tried they word better than CFl'S but didnt impress me. 400 watt HPS impresses me !