The 24 Types of Libertarian

[UncleBuck]

so i get to pay 30% more for everything and get $2,300 back at the end of the year?

i'd rather pay the current 0%, get taxed 22%, and get a refund at the end of the year for $1000-$1500 like i normally do.

i suppose it might come out a wash in the end if the embedded costs went away....but i'm of the opinion that businesses would not pass on the savings to the end consumer like they do with passing costs on to the consumer. i might be wrong, but at least i am not naive.

 

[abe23]

Most countries in europe have a high national VAT and it's hardly a model to follow. If you buy a coffee at a bar in italy and pay cash, chances are the guy is not ringing up the transaction in order to avoid paying taxes. Also, people become very crafty at turning things into business expenses in order to avoid paying it.

I'm all for reforming the tax code to make it simpler but I don't think an across the board federal sales tax is the way to go. There has to be a simpler way of applying a progressive income tax without 2,500 words of tax code...

 

[Johnnyorganic]

I'm sort of fuzzy on the whole Progressive Democrat definition of 'investment.'

The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), a division of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), spent $823,200 of economic stimulus funds in 2009 on a study by a UCLA research team to teach uncircumcised African men how to wash their genitals after having sex.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/75198

Perhaps one of you defenders of the Stimulus could 'splain this to me. What exactly are the taxpayers investing in?

What on god's green earth does clean African junk have to do with stimulating the American economy?

My nephew is six years old, but I'm pretty sure he knows how to keep his own crankshaft clean.

 

[hanimmal]

My guess is that this is some selective journalism, out of all the research that they do how are they certain the stimulus money is going to the study that I'm guessing has a lot more than just a good dick cleaning study. They have no sources on that site that say that the stimulus money is paying for all of that study just something about the recovery act

DESCRIPTION (provided by applicant): NOT-OD-09-058: NIH Announces the Availability of recovery Act Funds for Competitive Revision Applications The protective effect of-male circumcision on HIV acquisition may be due to improved genital hygiene.

But even still there's nothing saying some of the money can't get wasted. Why this may be helpful, unlike some that visit this board may feel, I don't see helping to get aids under control I. Africa as a bad thing.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

My guess is that this is some selective journalism, out of all the research that they do how are they certain the stimulus money is going to the study that I'm guessing has a lot more than just a good dick cleaning study. They have no sources on that site that say that the stimulus money is paying for all of that study just something about the recovery act


But even still there's nothing saying some of the money can't get wasted. Why this may be helpful, unlike some that visit this board may feel, I don't see helping to get aids under control I. Africa as a bad thing.

Looks pretty straightforward from where I sit. Nothing selective about it.

The genitalia-washing program is part of a larger $12-million UCLA study examining how to better encourage Africans to undergo voluntary HIV testing and counseling – however, only the penis-washing study received money from the 2009 economic stimulus law. The washing portion of the study is set to end in 2011.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/75198

But what does weenie washing in Africa stimulate in the US? Beside derision and hoots of laughter?

We send plenty of non-stimulus aid to that Third-World toilet already.

Africans should take care of Africa.

 

[hanimmal]

But what does weenie washing in Africa stimulate in the US? Beside derision and hoots of laughter?

We send plenty of non-stimulus aid to that Third-World toilet already.

Let's play a round of thinking for a moment about people who work at some level or another on projects like these or rely on them for business: labs that run the results here in the states, the techs in them, the makers of the equipment they use, the pharm companies that they get meeds from, the doctors and volenteers that go over there to do the research, hell down to taxi drivers and airport getting revenue for the flying.

The money that goes into their bank accounts, and how they spend it in the US.

What do you think happens with that money? It gets spent, and that money gets used in the economy. Granted I would think that they could have found far better ways to use that money for something more relevant to our people that need help in the states.

But there is a huge epidemic over there, and even though it sounds stupid to us to spend money on this, I'm sure there may be some very good reasons for this research.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Let's play a round of thinking for a moment about people who work at some level or another on projects like these or rely on them for business: labs that run the results here in the states, the techs in them, the makers of the equipment they use, the pharm companies that they get meeds from, the doctors and volenteers that go over there to do the research, hell down to taxi drivers and airport getting revenue for the flying.

The money that goes into their bank accounts, and how they spend it in the US.

What do you think happens with that money? It gets spent, and that money gets used in the economy. Granted I would think that they could have found far better ways to use that money for something more relevant to our people that need help in the states.

But there is a huge epidemic over there, and even though it sounds stupid to us to spend money on this, I'm sure there may be some very good reasons for this research.

Granted, there is a great deal of ancillary economic activity with any enterprise, but is it worth the horrid expense of the stimulus and the damage the resulting debt does to our economy in the long run?

In LA, the stimulus breaks down to about $2 million per job created or simply retained.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/63228/20100917/american-recovery-and-reinvestment-act-arra-los-angeles-stimulus-wendy-greuel.htm

How can anybody defend such crappy performance?

The stimulus failed to recover the economy. It grew government immensely and temporarily held off the inevitable.

I say let the market sort itself out. It may hurt more, but it will be quicker. Much quicker.

And Africans should figure out how to wash their tools on their dime.

 

[hanimmal]

According to the report, the Los Angeles Department of Public Works generated only 45.46 jobs (the fraction of a job created or retained correlates to the number of actual hours works) after receiving $70.65 million, while the target was 238 jobs.

Similarly, the city’s department of transportation, armed with a $40.8 million fund, created only 9 jobs in place of an expected 26 jobs.

. What are those ancillary economic activities is the question I'm looking at.

This article doesn't say what they spent that money on, did they buy new buses maybe, and added a few to the route which added those few jobs? Because if so I'm sure that the bus builders while maybe not needing to hire new people for production was able to get their workers some overtime, and some money to the people that are supplying parts.

The entire reason for the government spending is the secondary and more purchases from the spending. That is a lot of money in many peoples hands while taking out some of the slack in the economy. And at only a small amount of our yearly taxes going to it, I did the math before I think it was about a grand total of 6k in taxes for our entire lifetime for this bill, when doing this has saved more than that in strait up loss of wealth we would have had if we just slid into a great depression.

And the thought that a deep slide is faster and rebound faster is completely made up. You can't say it would be faster and better, because history has shown that to not be the case. Just like your saying that the stimulus failed is unfounded. You really don't see that private hiring has increased steady, consumer spending has been increasing, and even though we may not be at the end of this, there is many things showing improvement.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

. What are those ancillary economic activities is the question I'm looking at.

This article doesn't say what they spent that money on, did they buy new buses maybe, and added a few to the route which added those few jobs? Because if so I'm sure that the bus builders while maybe not needing to hire new people for production was able to get their workers some overtime, and some money to the people that are supplying parts.

The entire reason for the government spending is the secondary and more purchases from the spending. That is a lot of money in many peoples hands while taking out some of the slack in the economy. And at only a small amount of our yearly taxes going to it, I did the math before I think it was about a grand total of 6k in taxes for our entire lifetime for this bill, when doing this has saved more than that in strait up loss of wealth we would have had if we just slid into a great depression.

And the thought that a deep slide is faster and rebound faster is completely made up. You can't say it would be faster and better, because history has shown that to not be the case. Just like your saying that the stimulus failed is unfounded. You really don't see that private hiring has increased steady, consumer spending has been increasing, and even though we may not be at the end of this, there is many things showing improvement.

The stimulus failed to do what the American people expected it to do.

It grew government.

It provided a hell of a lot of pork.

It even washed a few filthy African wieners.

And history shows that government meddling in the free market results in chaos. Painful and extended misery.

Leave the free market alone.

It will right itself efficiently and quickly because businesses can't run at a loss the way government can.

 

[UncleBuck]

It even washed a few filthy African wieners.

you seem to know how much we spent washing those wieners, perhaps you may also know how many millions of dollars of aid we send to africa every year?

this aid, at least in part, deals with things like STDs and STIs transmitted through practices like, say, not washing your dick?

so rather spending our greenbacks on reactionary aid, we spent money on some proactive preventative measures.

not only will this better the lives of the owners of those wieners and their sexual partners, it will inevitably lead to a reduction in the amount of aid we send.

i would call that an investment that can and will save us money (not to mention human lives).

i agree they should wash their cocks on their own dime, but since we are sending aid anyway, this only makes sense.

anyone not so short-sighted that they can't see past this november would realize this.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

you seem to know how much we spent washing those wieners, perhaps you may also know how many millions of dollars of aid we send to africa every year?

this aid, at least in part, deals with things like STDs and STIs transmitted through practices like, say, not washing your dick?

so rather spending our greenbacks on reactionary aid, we spent money on some proactive preventative measures.

not only will this better the lives of the owners of those wieners and their sexual partners, it will inevitably lead to a reduction in the amount of aid we send.

i would call that an investment that can and will save us money (not to mention human lives).

i agree they should wash their cocks on their own dime, but since we are sending aid anyway, this only makes sense.

anyone not so short-sighted that they can't see past this november would realize this.

Easy. It's at least $3.5 Billion.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/15/opinion/ed-ghana15

There's even a website promoting how much we love Africa.
http://www.usaid.gov/about_usaid/

But I don't give two shits about dirty African dicks.

O-Kay. It's official.

Buck is convinced that teaching African men to wash their wee-wees is a viable investment in the American Economy.

I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[UncleBuck]

Buck is convinced that teaching African men to wash their wee-wees is a viable investment in the American Economy.

I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry.

okay, uncle.

i was more playing devil's advocate, rather than convinced.

and since it was called the american recovery and reinvestment act, your distinction is significant.

nonetheless, i stand by my assertion that spending money on proactive preventative measures will help us ween down on the amount of reactionary aid we send.

in that sense, it is an investment. we spend some money now to spend less money later.

still, your spin is more resonant. no one cares about being smart and reasonable nowadays, it is all about short-sighted emotional appeal. in that sense, you win. uncle.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

okay, uncle.

i was more playing devil's advocate, rather than convinced.

and since it was called the american recovery and reinvestment act, your distinction is significant.

nonetheless, i stand by my assertion that spending money on proactive preventative measures will help us ween down on the amount of reactionary aid we send.

in that sense, it is an investment. we spend some money now to spend less money later.

still, your spin is more resonant. no one cares about being smart and reasonable nowadays, it is all about short-sighted emotional appeal. in that sense, you win. uncle.

I'm not completely disagreeing with you, Buck.

If were are giving aid, let's call it aid.

But if we are giving anything else beyond that, then call it what it is.

 

[NoDrama]

i stand by my assertion that spending money on proactive preventative measures will help us ween down on the amount of reactionary aid we send.

in that sense, it is an investment. we spend some money now to spend less money later.

still, your spin is more resonant. no one cares about being smart and reasonable nowadays, it is all about short-sighted emotional appeal. in that sense, you win. uncle.

I think all those clean dick mother fuckers will just live that much longer to spread the AIDS virus to more partners making our Aid grow.

 

[hanimmal]

The stimulus failed to do what the American people expected it to do.

Which American people, and how did they come up with their conclusions? Fed to the by the news I'm guessing, I mean between all you guys saying it was the worst thing ever and going to push us into total collapse and nobody was going to buy our treasuries (which has not been the case), to the equally idiotic people that thought this was going to make it so they don't have to work for their money. What is it you think that the American people think?

This statement you made is just political garbage. Unporvable catchphrase that does not reflect reality.

It grew government.

What's the tot a
Growth of the government then? I take it you considered cost cuts in the government vs new government agencies, and not just stimulus spending right? Because that's like saying I just paid for groceries, I grew my house.

It provided a hell of a lot of pork

.
Everytime someone does anything, some people will take advantage of it. But do you know most pork is well spent? Pork is money the politicians bring back home to their voters. And usually they have a pretty good idea on what will be good investments for those communities. Because they do want to get voted for again. And if you're going to have pork spending the stimulus is not the worst place to have some.

And history shows that government meddling in the free market results in chaos. Painful and extended misery.

Which is why we had very severe recessions ever couple years before your big bad government intervention, and afterwards the timespan has lengthened dramatically. This is why every country that has a central bank has a far better economy after that banking regulators have been installed.

Government defiantly has it's limits, and they do mess a good amount up, but we are far better off with them working to get us out of this mess than we would if they stepped away from it like Hoover did deepening the great depression like so many people are crying for.

[/quote]Leave the free market alone.

It will right itself efficiently and quickly because businesses can't run at a loss the way government can.[/QUOTE]
you are onto something here though.

Because without government you would have a huge swath of the middle class small businesses going out and they would not pay bills or purchasing which leads to more hard hit middle class people relying on them and more people losing everything, especially with no welfare states like you seem to be in favor of would mean it would spiral until theses people and businesses equipment and stock were so cheap that the wealthy would be able to swoop in and buy all those second hand gear, and when we hit bottom, which would be far faster and harder, it would be completely wipeout of those people.

And you would effectively redistribute the wealth out of those businesses and people that lost everything to the wealthier class that was able to take advantage of their misery. Much like it was in the 1700-1940s

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Which American people? The 52% who disapprove of the stimulus that's who.

The stimulus failed to do what the President and his handlers promised it would do. The shining example is unemployment. Not only did it exceed the 8% we were warned about should the measure not pass, but it rocketed to 10%. Resting comfortably at 9.6% as I write these words.

I can only presume people on the Left loved it because it boosted union jobs in both the government and private sectors, and spread lots of "free" money around for a brief period.

But everybody else disapproved. It did not save our economy. There was no recovery. The stimulus only ballooned the deficit to put off the inevitable, thus extending the rough patch we find ourselves in now.

If it were not for the comic relief found in the earmarks; such as the African clean weenie funding, there would be very little in the bill that I would consider redeeming.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/142967/Among-Recent-Bills-Financial-Reform-Lone-Plus-Congress.aspx

 

[UncleBuck]

the american recovery and reinvestment act should NOT be judged based on what a percentage of americans think. for fuck sake, americans are stupid. and the same people who don't approve of this so far are of the same caliber of intelligence that believes obama is a muslim terrorist out to destroy america.

much like the affordable healthcare for america act, people like the components in the bill, but don't like the bill itself. let's take a look at some of what is in this bill, besides african dick scrubbing...


cut taxes for 95% of working Americans
bailed out every state

unemployment benefits and other aid to struggling families

funded more than 100,000 projects to upgrade roads, subways, schools, airports, military bases

the most ambitious energy legislation in history, converting the Energy Department into the world's largest venture-capital fund

unprecedented investments in a smart grid; energy efficiency; electric cars; renewable power from the sun, wind and earth; cleaner coal; advanced biofuels; and factories to manufacture green stuff in the U.S.

quadruple the number of hybrids in the federal auto fleet

finance far-out energy research through a new government incubator modeled after the Pentagon agency that fathered the Internet.
$5 billion effort to weatherize homes

tenfold increase in funding to expand access to broadband

an effort to sequence more than 2,300 complete human genomes — when only 34 were sequenced with all previous aid

$8 billion for a high-speed passenger rail network, the boldest federal transportation initiative since the interstate highways.

$4.35 billion in Race to the Top grants to promote accountability in public schools, perhaps the most significant federal education initiative ever

$20 billion to move health records into the digital age, which should reduce redundant tests, dangerous drug interactions and errors caused by doctors with chicken-scratch handwriting. Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius calls that initiative the foundation for Obama's health care reform and "maybe the single biggest component in improving quality and lowering costs."

smarter electrical grid that would reduce blackouts, promote renewables and give families more control over their energy diet
spread successful quit-smoking programs

Last year, exactly two U.S. factories made advanced batteries for electric vehicles. The stimulus will create 30 new ones, expanding U.S. production capacity from 1% of the global market to 20%

winners must attract private capital to match public dollars — A123 held an IPO to raise the required cash — and after competing for grants, they still must compete in the marketplace.
$3.4 billion for clean-coal projects

lucrative loan guarantees for constructing the first American nuclear plants in three decades

wind industry added a record 10,000 megawatts in 2009. The stimulus is also supporting the nation's largest photovoltaic solar plant, in Florida, and what will be the world's two largest solar thermal plants, in Arizona and California, plus thousands of solar installations on homes and buildings.
rebates for energy-efficient appliances

retrofitting juice-sucking server farms, factories and power plants

​

It's an interesting debate. Politically, it's awkward to argue that things would have been even worse without the stimulus, even though that's what most nonpartisan economists believe. But the battle over the Recovery Act's short-term rescue has obscured its more enduring mission: a long-term push to change the country. It was about jobs, sure, but also about fighting oil addiction and global warming, transforming health care and education, and building a competitive 21st century economy.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2013683-1,00.html#ixzz0zuPtogCD​

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[hanimmal]

How did they come to that conclusion? What actual information do they have and where did that info come from? He'll how are those numbers figured out?

Like it appears if you look at the support for legislation by demographic of political party this seems to be saying 29% of deems don't like the stimulus, with a 71% approval rating. And with republicans calling themselves independent nowadays it really seems like the republicans voted anti Obama and the deems voted for him in this pole.

And you must have missed the fact that in the report that the 8% ue rate came from was a optimal number and they also made a footnote saying it would get above 11% in some forecasts. Face it you really don't have a clue if the stimulus did what it should've done. Because you don't realize a ton of compromising went on cutting a lot from the bill making it too small to get us out of the mess completely.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

How did they come to that conclusion? What actual information do they have and where did that info come from? He'll how are those numbers figured out?

Like it appears if you look at the support for legislation by demographic of political party this seems to be saying 29% of deems don't like the stimulus, with a 71% approval rating. And with republicans calling themselves independent nowadays it really seems like the republicans voted anti Obama and the deems voted for him in this pole.

And you must have missed the fact that in the report that the 8% ue rate came from was a optimal number and they also made a footnote saying it would get above 11% in some forecasts. Face it you really don't have a clue if the stimulus did what it should've done. Because you don't realize a ton of compromising went on cutting a lot from the bill making it too small to get us out of the mess completely.

My previous post provided a link. If you want to break down the numbers and statistical methods used, you can follow the link.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

the american recovery and reinvestment act should NOT be judged based on what a percentage of americans think. for fuck sake, americans are stupid. and the same people who don't approve of this so far are of the same caliber of intelligence that believes obama is a muslim terrorist out to destroy america.

much like the affordable healthcare for america act, people like the components in the bill, but don't like the bill itself. let's take a look at some of what is in this bill, besides african dick scrubbing...


cut taxes for 95% of working Americans
bailed out every state

unemployment benefits and other aid to struggling families

funded more than 100,000 projects to upgrade roads, subways, schools, airports, military bases

the most ambitious energy legislation in history, converting the Energy Department into the world's largest venture-capital fund

unprecedented investments in a smart grid; energy efficiency; electric cars; renewable power from the sun, wind and earth; cleaner coal; advanced biofuels; and factories to manufacture green stuff in the U.S.

quadruple the number of hybrids in the federal auto fleet

finance far-out energy research through a new government incubator modeled after the Pentagon agency that fathered the Internet.
$5 billion effort to weatherize homes

tenfold increase in funding to expand access to broadband

an effort to sequence more than 2,300 complete human genomes — when only 34 were sequenced with all previous aid

$8 billion for a high-speed passenger rail network, the boldest federal transportation initiative since the interstate highways.

$4.35 billion in Race to the Top grants to promote accountability in public schools, perhaps the most significant federal education initiative ever

$20 billion to move health records into the digital age, which should reduce redundant tests, dangerous drug interactions and errors caused by doctors with chicken-scratch handwriting. Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius calls that initiative the foundation for Obama's health care reform and "maybe the single biggest component in improving quality and lowering costs."

smarter electrical grid that would reduce blackouts, promote renewables and give families more control over their energy diet
spread successful quit-smoking programs

Last year, exactly two U.S. factories made advanced batteries for electric vehicles. The stimulus will create 30 new ones, expanding U.S. production capacity from 1% of the global market to 20%

winners must attract private capital to match public dollars — A123 held an IPO to raise the required cash — and after competing for grants, they still must compete in the marketplace.
$3.4 billion for clean-coal projects

lucrative loan guarantees for constructing the first American nuclear plants in three decades

wind industry added a record 10,000 megawatts in 2009. The stimulus is also supporting the nation's largest photovoltaic solar plant, in Florida, and what will be the world's two largest solar thermal plants, in Arizona and California, plus thousands of solar installations on homes and buildings.
rebates for energy-efficient appliances

retrofitting juice-sucking server farms, factories and power plants

​

It's an interesting debate. Politically, it's awkward to argue that things would have been even worse without the stimulus, even though that's what most nonpartisan economists believe. But the battle over the Recovery Act's short-term rescue has obscured its more enduring mission: a long-term push to change the country. It was about jobs, sure, but also about fighting oil addiction and global warming, transforming health care and education, and building a competitive 21st century economy.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2013683-1,00.html#ixzz0zuPtogCD​

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I was answering Han's question, Buck.

But you are correct, Americans are stupid; as they demonstrated in November 2008 when they made an untested, thin-skinned, preening narcissist who hates America the most powerful man in the world.

Undoing the damage will take a long time requiring painful austerity measures.