pot size? root bound? i don't know

[middle84]

I currently have 4 kush strains that are just entering flowering. They are in 3 gallon pots and are currently about 18 inches high. The roots are showing at the bottom of the pot already and the water is consumed in 24 hours. when watering the water seems to go right through.

I'm growing in ocean forest with about 15% perilite added into it
the roots reached the bottom of the pots really quickly and now it seems they are shedding water quickly and also don't seem to hold water. Any advice or things I could do to check or find out if I should do something.

There is also the possibility that nothing is the matter as I am very novice still

 

[Brick Top]

Next time use larger pots. I never use pots that are smaller than 5-gallons and normally use pots that are 7-gallons and if growing outside on my deck I use pots that are 15-gallons and larger.


Root-bound:

Root-bound is where the roots of your plant outgrow the container they are contained in.


The following symptoms may be observed if you allow your plants to become root-bound:

1. Stunted Growth.
2. Stretching.
3. Smaller and slower bud production.
4. Needs watering too often.
5. Easy to burn with low % nutrient solution mixtures.
6. Wilting.

 

[middle84]

they definitly aren't stretching or getting burnt or wilting. How much is too often for watering?

 

[Brick Top]

they definitly aren't stretching or getting burnt or wilting. How much is too often for watering?

You said; "the roots reached the bottom of the pots really quickly and now it seems they are shedding water quickly and also don't seem to hold water." Why do you think that is? Because your small pots are quickly filling with roots. Some or all of the things I mentioned will follow. You are in the very early stages of the root-bound condition and it will not get better. It will only get worse.

 

[FootClan]

I currently have 4 kush strains that are just entering flowering. They are in 3 gallon pots and are currently about 18 inches high. The roots are showing at the bottom of the pot already and the water is consumed in 24 hours. when watering the water seems to go right through.

I'm growing in ocean forest with about 15% perilite added into it
the roots reached the bottom of the pots really quickly and now it seems they are shedding water quickly and also don't seem to hold water. Any advice or things I could do to check or find out if I should do something.

There is also the possibility that nothing is the matter as I am very novice still

3 gallon pots should be just fine on a plant only vegging to 18 inches i veg mine taller then that in 3 gallon smart pots and get NO root problems......Brick Top says " never use 3 gallon pots" thats rediculaous advice not everyone wants to grow outside and use hudge pots and veg for 2 months theres all kinda of ways of growing with less then 5 gallon pots....Unless you are going to veg for like 2 months and plan on growing 6 foot tall plants you dont need 5 gallons pots....... and it dosent even make sence that your plants could be root bound in 3 gallon pots at only 18 inchs tall thats CRAZY and iver never heard of such a thing happing....i mean 18 inchs that ALL?? and there root bound?? na dosnt make sence really i mean i use to use 2 gallon pots and still get no root bound so i just cant see how your 3 gallon is root bound already

 

[Brick Top]

3 gallon pots should be just fine on a plant only vegging to 18 inches i veg mine taller then that in 3 gallon smart pots and get NO root problems......Brick Top says " never use 3 gallon pots" thats rediculaous advice not everyone wants to grow outside and use hudge pots and veg for 2 months theres all kinda of ways of growing with less then 5 gallon pots....Unless you are going to veg for like 2 months and plan on growing 6 foot tall plants you dont need 5 gallons pots....... and it dosent even make sence that your plants could be root bound in 3 gallon pots at only 18 inchs tall thats CRAZY and iver never heard of such a thing happing....i mean 18 inchs that ALL?? and there root bound?? na dosnt make sence really i mean i use to use 2 gallon pots and still get no root bound so i just cant see how your 3 gallon is root bound already

Along with four members of my family I am an owner of a pot-in-pot nursery that covers about 17 acres of land. We have thousands and thousands of trees and bushes in pots. My four family members all have degrees in botany. I have 38 years of herb growing experience, that's nearly four decades of her growing experience. Between what my family members with degrees in botany know and have taught me, with what we have learned over the years at the nursery and with my 'home gardening' experience I know about growing in pots and I know what plants need and how plants will react when grown in pots that are too small.

I am more then used to reading messages attempting to refute what I say, and they are always by people who do not come anywhere close to my level of expertise or amount of experience or degree of botanical knowledge.

So believe whoever you prefer to believe. If you prefer to make mistakes it will never cause me any problems.


Oh ... when you said; "Brick Top says " never use 3 gallon pots" thats rediculaous advice not everyone wants to grow outside and use hudge pots and veg for 2 months..." that was highly inaccurate. I said I will, but seldom, use pots as small as 5-gallon pots for indoor growing but normally will use 7-gallon pots indoors. The larger pots, 15-gallon and larger, are what I use when I grow on my deck.

Normally I will veg to around 15 to 18 inches and when I do that using 5-gallon pots when I harvest and check the root-ball it is getting very close to being too tightly packed. When I use 7-gallon pots, and veg the same, there will be roots in every area of the pots but they will not be tightly packed. There will not be any area without roots, no part of the pot goes unused.

When I grow outside, and use the full southeastern growing season, by harvest there is no extra room for roots in my 15-gallon pots. They are not root-bound, but they are not far from it. In 20-gallon there might be a slight amount of unused soil and in 25-gallon pots there will normally be roughly two to three inches at the bottom without any roots at all, but the roots will have grow all the way to the sides of the pots, just as with the 20-gallon pots and with the 15-gallon pots.

Healthy plants will have a 50/50 ratio between overall leaf area and root-mass area. There is as much growing under the soil as there is growing above the soil, if the plant is healthy. Of course the shape of the different growth is completely different, but the amount of area, the total mass will be as close to being a 50/50 ratio as possible.

If roots are not allowed the space they need the plant will never produce as well as it otherwise would. Never.

Where uneducated, in botanical matters, and inexperienced growers become confused is because the cannabis plant is a rough tough species that will take a licking and keep on ticking and because of that they can be abused and still produce well enough to impress some people. Because of that those people will incorrectly assume that they did well and that they grew their plants very well and that they maximized their production. But they are wrong.

The only way to achieve optimal results is to provide optimal conditions for plants to grow in and small pots do not provide optimal growing conditions.

Everyone is of course totally free to believe whatever they prefer to believe and if someone want or needs to believe that small pots are perfect or best for growing in, that is of course their right. But they would be totally wrong to believe that just because they choose to believe that, that they are correct and that their personally chosen belief creates fact and that their personally chosen belief somehow magically and mystically transforms scientifically proven botanical facts into fiction or inaccuracies.

Like it or not, accept it or not, that is reality.

 

[middle84]

I got 7 gallon pots they look like 5 to me. He was telling me about smart pots and I bought one to try does that help with root issues?

 

[Brick Top]

I got 7 gallon pots they look like 5 to me. He was telling me about smart pots and I bought one to try does that help with root issues?

Smart Pots are good, they 'prune' your roots for better growth by exposing the roots to just enough air where a tip or section dies but then splits off into two or more new roots. Roots push out in more directions rather than grow down and to the side of a pot and then circle it and become entwined. They build very healthy root systems and healthy root systems produce healthy plants.

 

[FootClan]

Along with four members of my family I am an owner of a pot-in-pot nursery that covers about 17 acres of land. We have thousands and thousands of trees and bushes in pots. My four family members all have degrees in botany. I have 38 years of herb growing experience, that's nearly four decades of her growing experience. Between what my family members with degrees in botany know and have taught me, with what we have learned over the years at the nursery and with my 'home gardening' experience I know about growing in pots and I know what plants need and how plants will react when grown in pots that are too small.

I am more then used to reading messages attempting to refute what I say, and they are always by people who do not come anywhere close to my level of expertise or amount of experience or degree of botanical knowledge.

So believe whoever you prefer to believe. If you prefer to make mistakes it will never cause me any problems.


Oh ... when you said; "Brick Top says " never use 3 gallon pots" thats rediculaous advice not everyone wants to grow outside and use hudge pots and veg for 2 months..." that was highly inaccurate. I said I will, but seldom, use pots as small as 5-gallon pots for indoor growing but normally will use 7-gallon pots indoors. The larger pots, 15-gallon and larger, are what I use when I grow on my deck.

Normally I will veg to around 15 to 18 inches and when I do that using 5-gallon pots when I harvest and check the root-ball it is getting very close to being too tightly packed. When I use 7-gallon pots, and veg the same, there will be roots in every area of the pots but they will not be tightly packed. There will not be any area without roots, no part of the pot goes unused.

When I grow outside, and use the full southeastern growing season, by harvest there is no extra room for roots in my 15-gallon pots. They are not root-bound, but they are not far from it. In 20-gallon there might be a slight amount of unused soil and in 25-gallon pots there will normally be roughly two to three inches at the bottom without any roots at all, but the roots will have grow all the way to the sides of the pots, just as with the 20-gallon pots and with the 15-gallon pots.

Healthy plants will have a 50/50 ratio between overall leaf area and root-mass area. There is as much growing under the soil as there is growing above the soil, if the plant is healthy. Of course the shape of the different growth is completely different, but the amount of area, the total mass will be as close to being a 50/50 ratio as possible.

If roots are not allowed the space they need the plant will never produce as well as it otherwise would. Never.

Where uneducated, in botanical matters, and inexperienced growers become confused is because the cannabis plant is a rough tough species that will take a licking and keep on ticking and because of that they can be abused and still produce well enough to impress some people. Because of that those people will incorrectly assume that they did well and that they grew their plants very well and that they maximized their production. But they are wrong.

The only way to achieve optimal results is to provide optimal conditions for plants to grow in and small pots do not provide optimal growing conditions.

Everyone is of course totally free to believe whatever they prefer to believe and if someone want or needs to believe that small pots are perfect or best for growing in, that is of course their right. But they would be totally wrong to believe that just because they choose to believe that, that they are correct and that their personally chosen belief creates fact and that their personally chosen belief somehow magically and mystically transforms scientifically proven botanical facts into fiction or inaccuracies.

Like it or not, accept it or not, that is reality.

I worked at jack in the box when i was 16(drive through) i also played the chello when i was in 8th grade and later i quit in the 10th grade.... By the time i finished high school i had achieved a highschool degree not only that but i come from a long line of family members who also had a local highschool and attended it.....

I am more then used to reading messages attempting to refute what I say........So believe whoever you prefer to believe. If you prefer to make mistakes it will never cause me any problems.

give me a break lol.......... Ya your right what was i thinking 3 gallon pots?? thats crazy talk everyone knows that you must use 5gallon lol uhuh ..... You can use 3 gallon and have more plants vs 5 gallon and less plants what ever floats your boat.....You can yeild just as much with more smaller plants as you can with less big plants why you making this hard LOL to say that you cant grow good in 3 gallon is laughable..... People who say " ive been doing this for bla bla years" are always behind the times.........My dad was a mechanic for 25 years retired......we worked on my gf's 2009 honda and he was out of his element...So dont give me all that ive been around for ever stuff.......Just means you need to learn some new tricks.....

 

[Brick Top]

I worked at jack in the box when i was 16(drive through) i also played the chello when i was in 8th grade and later i quit in the 10th grade.... By the time i finished high school i had achieved a highschool degree not only that but i come from a long line of family members who also had a local highschool and attended it.....

I am more then used to reading messages attempting to refute what I say........So believe whoever you prefer to believe. If you prefer to make mistakes it will never cause me any problems.

give me a break lol.......... Ya your right what was i thinking 3 gallon pots?? thats crazy talk everyone knows that you must use 5gallon lol uhuh ..... You can use 3 gallon and have more plants vs 5 gallon and less plants what ever floats your boat.....You can yeild just as much with more smaller plants as you can with less big plants why you making this hard LOL to say that you cant grow good in 3 gallon is laughable..... People who say " ive been doing this for bla bla years" are always behind the times.........My dad was a mechanic for 25 years retired......we worked on my gf's 2009 honda and he was out of his element...So dont give me all that ive been around for ever stuff.......Just means you need to learn some new tricks.....

Yet another typical response from someone with absolutely no true botanical knowledge whatsoever and who refuses to accept it when they are told it, but I bet you're a heck of a burger flipper!

 

[tabi]

lol @ burger filpper


hey buddy just take one of your plants and pop it out of the pot. then you will know if it is root bound!

 

[middle84]

Brick top Thank you for dropping all the knowledge and I really appreciate it. You seem very knowledgeable, remind me a bit of UncleBen in your knowledge base and how your respond to posts.

another question
I have transplanted from my 3 gallon square pots to what I'm pretty sure is a 5gallon and not 7. This has provided alot of space but based on how fast the root systems has grown and the state of it at transplant I'm still worried that they will fill their new home up all to quickly. Is this inevitable growing in a traditional pot or planter?

When i transplanted them 3 of the root systems easily pulled out because they were so developed. Three has so much roots in the bottom they were basically solid root at the bottom. They were still white and healthy in color, Is there a product that would be good to use to help aid becoming root bound or other root related issues?

For future reference should i have cut off the really heavy root base at the bottom. it was formed to the small squares of the bottom.

 

[middle84]

These are kush strains, not alot of stretch in ending the first full week of 12/12 and are roughly 18-22 inches high. I feel like the roots are out of control for how little the plants are at this point.

Any pointer at all outside of getting even larger pots on how I should treat them through the next 7-9 weeks. They look very healthy except one strain an afghan hindu kush which was gifted to me from a friend who got them from an unknown breeder(to me) in rotterdam. Its leaves were very asymmetric almost snaking and they showed this trait from the very first set of real leaves of the sprout. coming out in almost a spiral pattern

 

[sk'mo]

...People who say " ive been doing this for bla bla years" are always behind the times.........My dad was a mechanic for 25 years retired......we worked on my gf's 2009 honda and he was out of his element...So dont give me all that ive been around for ever stuff.......Just means you need to learn some new tricks.....

Here's the thing: Vehicles have evolved a lot in 26 years. Plants have not. Horticultural is a field where experience can easily trump education, and there is always something to learn that isn't in a book. You can't argue with results. I've been to college, yet there are little old ladies who can grow bigger, better tomatoes than me, no problem. This is because of what their experience has taught them.

I think what Brick Top is driving at is that you need to use pots that will allow for unhindered growth and that at 15-18 inches, a 5 gallon pot is best. Everything in his post is accurate. I use 3 gal. bags, and they are fine for me, but I don't veg to 18 in., I don't produce too much root mass for my pot size.

Pot size is relative to plant size and growth habit.

Middle84,

No need to cut off any roots, but one thing you could do when transplanting is to 'rough up' the root ball. this will encourage them to grow outward.

Just remember that any mistakes you make are learning experiences and keep on keepin' on.

 

[middle84]

Yea been growing a while my first grow and it's clones was a horrible mess with me ending up killing both sets do to them never flowering and getting to a size i couldn't have in my restraints.

I learned to lst and scrog and do all sorts of things I think my largest mistake was using unknown genetics which were known to be a sativa dom.

they were beautiful plants so large and healthy but interms of growing weed it was an absolute failure

there was also a light timer issue with the clones. the first generation got to huge and I have a 6foot tent.

 

[FootClan]

Here's the thing: Vehicles have evolved a lot in 26 years. Plants have not. Horticultural is a field where experience can easily trump education, and there is always something to learn that isn't in a book. You can't argue with results. I've been to college, yet there are little old ladies who can grow bigger, better tomatoes than me, no problem. This is because of what their experience has taught them.

I think what Brick Top is driving at is that you need to use pots that will allow for unhindered growth and that at 15-18 inches, a 5 gallon pot is best. Everything in his post is accurate. I use 3 gal. bags, and they are fine for me, but I don't veg to 18 in., I don't produce too much root mass for my pot size.

Pot size is relative to plant size and growth habit.

Middle84,

No need to cut off any roots, but one thing you could do when transplanting is to 'rough up' the root ball. this will encourage them to grow outward.

Just remember that any mistakes you make are learning experiences and keep on keepin' on.

I disagree 18 inchs is not too big for 3 gallon pots like i said i veg to 18 and i dont get root bound what so ever so whatever and i know everyones sucking Brick tops D*ick thats ok even if he was right and im wrong its just the way he carries himself like hes god on the subject he dosent seem to want to back up his words with some sort of facts or explain why hes saying im wrong he just insults me saying i dont know anyting because i happen to disagree with him..then when i say well you arent even giving a reason why you just posting your resume as if that in itself proves what ever he says is right?? then acts as if im an idiot for not taking is word on face value?? lol whatever hes a prick and i grow pounds with ONE light in 3 gallons pots..... Im i doing something wrong?? i cant even fuckin fit 5 gallon pots in my 4x4 tent and still have the number of plants i want what the hell is everyone talking about acting like im stupid you guys are all stupid... As if i need 5 gallon pots to grow 3.5 foot tall plants in a 4x4 space ....you all can suck it

 

[FootClan]

Brick top Thank you for dropping all the knowledge and I really appreciate it. You seem very knowledgeable, remind me a bit of UncleBen in your knowledge base and how your respond to posts.

another question
I have transplanted from my 3 gallon square pots to what I'm pretty sure is a 5gallon and not 7. This has provided alot of space but based on how fast the root systems has grown and the state of it at transplant I'm still worried that they will fill their new home up all to quickly. Is this inevitable growing in a traditional pot or planter?

When i transplanted them 3 of the root systems easily pulled out because they were so developed. Three has so much roots in the bottom they were basically solid root at the bottom. They were still white and healthy in color, Is there a product that would be good to use to help aid becoming root bound or other root related issues?

For future reference should i have cut off the really heavy root base at the bottom. it was formed to the small squares of the bottom.

Unless you plan on growing 6 foot tall plants and veggin for months then you have just wasted time and money on more meduim for bigger pots you dont need.....yes yes i know im wrong prick top is god good thing you switched to 5 gallon.....

 

[sk'mo]

Don't Hate, Appreciate !!

If you say it's fine... it's fine. That's not my point.

You made an analogy about working on cars, implying that a person's years of experience aren't relevant because things change, and evolve. That after a quarter century, a person falls behind the times.

I'm pointing out to you, that horticulture is a field where experience is king. An education may give you a better perspective, but no amount of schooling, can teach what decades of growing will. This is something I know.

Another thing I know is that what Brick Top says is accurate. Pot size is relative to plant size. The less restrictive, the better (To a point.). A plant will grow in less than ideal conditions. With proper care, it even be grown quite well, but ideal conditions are, well... Ideal. Ideally.

 

[FootClan]

Don't Hate, Appreciate !!

If you say it's fine... it's fine. That's not my point.

You made an analogy about working on cars, implying that a person's years of experience aren't relevant because things change, and evolve. That after a quarter century, a person falls behind the times.

I'm pointing out to you, that horticulture is a field where experience is king. An education may give you a better perspective, but no amount of schooling, can teach what decades of growing will. This is something I know.

Another thing I know is that what Brick Top says is accurate. Pot size is relative to plant size. The less restrictive, the better (To a point.). A plant will grow in less than ideal conditions. With proper care, it even be grown quite well, but ideal conditions are, well... Ideal. Ideally.

So you dont beleive a person CANT fall behind in the times on new growing techengues? lol ok if you say so.... also i know that pot size is relevent to plant size thats exactly what im saying lol you prove my point thanks.....if you arent growing big trees you dont need big pots thanks for saying the same thing ive been saying....... 18 inches is not a big plant my plants get to 18 inchs in a matter of 2 weeks your telling me that in two weeks my plants will have root bound in my 3 gallon pots? LOL NO this is not correct i veg for 3 weeks and flower and my pots dont even get close to root bound so how would i benifit from switching to 5 gallon pots?? how would i fit 9 5gallon pots in a 4x4 tent??? skmo please tell me how i would be better off with 5 gallon pots in a 4x4 space with 9 plants?? hhmmm i wanna see how this will work?? oh please tell me how that is suppose to be better???........If i switched to 5 gallon pots then i would have to only have 6 plants instead of 9 or 12 and i would have to veg them longer to make up the difference of only have 6 instead of 9 or 12 plants.....That means that ill have to use more nutes and more Pg&e just to get the same yeild as growing smaller plants instead of 6 so in the end its the same thing you all are crazy for acting like i dont know what im saying there is no use to using a pot bigger than what the plants needs unless the plants needs it and if my plants never get big enough to need a 5 gallon pot then why would i get a 5 gallon pot?? this is standered newbie central stuff here i dont know why you guys are arguing this is fact not up for debate having a pot bigger than what you need is just wasting resources period......

also you say experience is key and the longer you grow the more you know regardles if you keep on on new techenques right?? well if thats the case why did i just hear from a veterian grower that plants dont like MH bulbs at all during flower?? but new studies show that UVB rays during flowering can increase potency yet this old timer had NO idea of this fact?/ WHY IS THIS?? if we go by what you say then that guy should have known that UVB is good for flowering how can someone like me that hasnt been growing for 25 years know this and someone who has dosent?? huh?? like i said just becuase someone has been doing someting for years dosent mean they know everything and they are right....this guy said i was wrong and said hes knows im wrong becasue hes "been around" explain that one to me too?? see i keep giving EX. too prove my points yet everyone else just says im wrong and thats it but never backs there shit up with any kinda EX or data or anything everyone just says " i know your wrong" lol uhhuh

Ive heard from oldertimes that HPS dosent create strong stoute stems in veg but new studies show that to be incorrect aswell......yet he told me that i was wrong becasue he been growing for years.LOL so why is this?? yet another EX of someone using OUTDATED info to tell people how to grow so Prick top and you and everyone else who thinks that they are right on every subject just becuase they have been around can suck it......its people like that which got me side tracked when i first started growing everyone telling me i had to do this and i had to do that and i figured they must be right because as you say they have experiance come to found out all that shit i was told was mostly OUTDATED and all the old technegues that these old guys use have all been updated with new techniques and now that i figured that out i wont be side tracked by people like Prick top and others that are so closed minded and set in there way they they wont even discuss other ways of doing things its eather there way or we are stupid....lol reminds me of my old racist grandfather no matter how the times change he still lives lin the past refusing to accecpt new ideas and so on.......


YES I KNOW IM WRONG I NEED 5 GALLON POTS NO MATTER WHAT RIGHT?? LOL so stupid

 

[Brick Top]

Brick top Thank you for dropping all the knowledge and I really appreciate it. You seem very knowledgeable, remind me a bit of UncleBen in your knowledge base and how your respond to posts.

another question
I have transplanted from my 3 gallon square pots to what I'm pretty sure is a 5gallon and not 7. This has provided alot of space but based on how fast the root systems has grown and the state of it at transplant I'm still worried that they will fill their new home up all to quickly. Is this inevitable growing in a traditional pot or planter?

When i transplanted them 3 of the root systems easily pulled out because they were so developed. Three has so much roots in the bottom they were basically solid root at the bottom. They were still white and healthy in color, Is there a product that would be good to use to help aid becoming root bound or other root related issues?

For future reference should i have cut off the really heavy root base at the bottom. it was formed to the small squares of the bottom.

Funny you mention Uncle Ben because we have been in touch for a good while on several different boards now but I would not put myself in his class of knowledge. If I ever find myself scratching my head in wonderment about something he is the one person on this board I will go to for advice.

If you have your plants in 5-gallon pots now unless you will be growing plants that are over about 5 feet tall, after a LONG vegetative growth period, you will be fine. Your plants will almost certainly use all the pot space but not to a degree where they will become root-bound and have problems. Now and then I will step down to 5-gallon pots when I know I will not be growing sequoias and I have never had what I could call a problem. My pots would be filled with roots but not to the point of overcrowding.

If there is soil to use roots will attempt to use it but there should now be enough that you should not have any real concerns.

You should be fine now.

Best of luck!