Flushing?
- Thread starter dankz1914
- Start date
woodsmaneh!
Well-Known Member
I grow organic and don't flush at all, I just water them when they need it.
notpatient
Well-Known Member
Ive read here and there is it ness. to flush ?
R u sure cause doesn't the soil build up salts that u want to get rid of? What kind of organics u use? I have the fox farm line up plus some b1 n molasses. I pretty sure it doesn't hurt to flush from what I am hearing
Nullis
Moderator
The majority of TLO (true living organics) growers don't 'flush' in the same context as synthetic/chemical growers would because they really don't need to. What we do is use plain water during the last couple of weeks, some might call this a 'flush' while others call it giving plain water for the last couple of weeks. The amount watered isn't the copious 3x the amount of the container that is called for when flushing in hydroponics- rather a regular but thorough watering that allows for sufficient run-off.
Salt build-up shouldn't be a concern in organics: microbes are mediating the nutrient fixation. Various types of micro-organisms (bacteria, fungi, protozoa, detritivores) involved in your soil food web will continuously assimilate, assemble, retain and recycle components within the soil (and atmosphere); decompose organic matter into humus and make nutrients available to plant roots.
Chemical hydroponic nutrients containing synthetic salts and other agri-chemicals such as pH Up are incompatible with true organics as these chemicals make soil less hospitable to your microherd. In order to determine whether you should actually flush before harvesting you need to consider whether or not you are actually growing organically. Unfortunately a lot of people are misinformed as to what constitutes organic gardening and many who think they are growing 'organically' are not, truly. Liquid Fox Farm nutrients such as Tiger Bloom are not organic, while the bottle may carry a label such as "Organic-Based" this is a different distinction than it being 'fully organic' or even 'all natural'. Tiger Bloom for instance might be 'based' upon ingredients such as earthworm castings (an organic amendment), but it also contains synthetic salts and in particular the synthetic chelating agent EDTA. Any liquid nutrient containing EDTA or similar synthetic chelates should be avoided at all costs in organics, and most hydro nutrients do have EDTA or some other synthetic chelate. The dry Fox Farms 'Peace of Mind' line of fertilizers is suitable for organic gardening, but none of their liquid nutrients are with perhaps one exception.
Salt build-up shouldn't be a concern in organics: microbes are mediating the nutrient fixation. Various types of micro-organisms (bacteria, fungi, protozoa, detritivores) involved in your soil food web will continuously assimilate, assemble, retain and recycle components within the soil (and atmosphere); decompose organic matter into humus and make nutrients available to plant roots.
Chemical hydroponic nutrients containing synthetic salts and other agri-chemicals such as pH Up are incompatible with true organics as these chemicals make soil less hospitable to your microherd. In order to determine whether you should actually flush before harvesting you need to consider whether or not you are actually growing organically. Unfortunately a lot of people are misinformed as to what constitutes organic gardening and many who think they are growing 'organically' are not, truly. Liquid Fox Farm nutrients such as Tiger Bloom are not organic, while the bottle may carry a label such as "Organic-Based" this is a different distinction than it being 'fully organic' or even 'all natural'. Tiger Bloom for instance might be 'based' upon ingredients such as earthworm castings (an organic amendment), but it also contains synthetic salts and in particular the synthetic chelating agent EDTA. Any liquid nutrient containing EDTA or similar synthetic chelates should be avoided at all costs in organics, and most hydro nutrients do have EDTA or some other synthetic chelate. The dry Fox Farms 'Peace of Mind' line of fertilizers is suitable for organic gardening, but none of their liquid nutrients are with perhaps one exception.
For sure man thanks I kinda was thinkin my grow wasn't 100% organic but its all good as long as it gets the job done n I get high as fuck. So since I should flush do I really have to put 21 gal of RO through my 7 gal pots? Do you think I should use something else to the flush?
Nubby Tubbs
New Member
flush it nub. yah flush it a lot. yah use some saponin and flushhhhhhh itttttttt. really: your dope is gonna taste waaaay better if you flush it, and since youre organic already id say FLUSH IT NUB!
Viagro
Well-Known Member
I like that approach. It makes more sense and reduces the chance of bud mold, considerably.
MandalaSeeds.com has some interesting recommendations along this line.
If you're growing organically, flushing is unnecessary.
If it helps you sleep better, flush away.
Myself, I just water only the last couple of weeks.
Wet
woodsmaneh!
Well-Known Member
I put the summery first, It is also backed up by science links attached.
Summary:
Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
For one thing, the most common way that growers flush their crops is by giving their crops water that has no nutrients in it. But this doesn't fully cleanse your crops. It only starves your plants so they lose vigorous floral growth and resin percentages just before harvest. Other growers use flushing formulas that generally consist of a few chemicals that sometimes have the ability to pull a limited amount of residues out of your plants.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavour of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulphur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are movable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Trans-location:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the trans-location process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be trans located through the phloem. Immobile elements can’t be trans located and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the root-zone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Trans-location is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins; most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulphur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
http://muextension.missouri.edu
Summary:
Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on un-flushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or over fertilization and improper drying/curing.
Summary:
Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
For one thing, the most common way that growers flush their crops is by giving their crops water that has no nutrients in it. But this doesn't fully cleanse your crops. It only starves your plants so they lose vigorous floral growth and resin percentages just before harvest. Other growers use flushing formulas that generally consist of a few chemicals that sometimes have the ability to pull a limited amount of residues out of your plants.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavour of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulphur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are movable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Trans-location:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the trans-location process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be trans located through the phloem. Immobile elements can’t be trans located and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the root-zone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Trans-location is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins; most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulphur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
http://muextension.missouri.edu
Summary:
Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are losing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on un-flushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or over fertilization and improper drying/curing.
woodsmaneh!
Well-Known Member
The other thing that happens when you flush is nitrogen is the first to leave, when that happens it locks up other elements. For example nitrogen can be flushed out very easy and fast but, Magnesium gets locked up as it needs nitrogen to move in the plant. You can tell when weed pops and sparks for no reason it's the mag left in the plant.
If you have to flush you should always flush with a 20% solution so you can get most elements you want out of the plant. If you follow the above you will not need to flush as you will be giving your plants what they need when they need it. OMHO
If you have to flush you should always flush with a 20% solution so you can get most elements you want out of the plant. If you follow the above you will not need to flush as you will be giving your plants what they need when they need it. OMHO
Mother's Finest
Well-Known Member
There are two reasons for flushing at the end of flowering. The first is to end fertilizer uptake, reducing fresh growth that would not have time to mature and would yield a speedier, less enjoyable high. The second is to minimize the crap inside of the finished buds. A plant can usually take care of some toxins in its system over time, but if the plant is absorbing unhealthy crap when it is harvested, that crap will then be in the buds you smoke. Even plain, fresh fertilizer with no old residues at all can affect the flavor and smoothness of the final smoke if the plant absorbs it right before harvest. As Nullis mentioned, different types of fertilizers can affect the finished smoke differently, and organics commonly have less of a negative impact.
Viagro
Well-Known Member
That's why it makes sense to grow organically...to avoid all that.
Ok I understand but from what people tell me I'm not growing true 100% organic. So either way u should always flush your soil right? Quick question im confused on how much I should flush some people say just water for the last two weeks and some say dump 3 times the amount into it and let it dry completely for 2 or 3 days then go ahead an chop. Which way would be correct? An can I cut of half the shoots n let it keep growing on the bottom less mature stufff
Mother's Finest
Well-Known Member
"Should" is of course debatable but yes, the theory fits with any type of fertilizer. Whether it's a man-made chemical or feces, excess in the finished buds won't help the smoke. The part about minimizing new growth also works with all fertilizer types.
Do not ever flush twice in a row. For starters, flushing wets the soil more than it should be. Even more importantly, you're washing away all of the nutrients that the plants need to survive and they won't be healthy for two consecutive watering periods without any nutes, especially since overwetting the soil lengthens the time before the next watering. Flushing too soon can cause the plants to grow very slowly or even stall out altogether. To fix it, you have to give them fresh ferts and basicly restart the flowering process, growing new, immature buds just before harvest. Flushing late is always less riskier than flushing early. If you're going to flush at the end of flowering, you should aim for just over one watering cycle before harvest. Flush, wait until the soil dries out and the plants start to need water, then harvest.
To flush, you pour water through the soil until it comes out clear and then pour a little more. Three times the pot size is probably a good rule of thumb. Using plain water for the last couple waterings is a different technique from flushing but works similarly. I wouldn't suggest doing both.
Tahmi.Guhnn
Active Member
In your case I would suggest flushing with a weak nutrient solution and alow for significant run off. flushing with 3x's the amount of water than volume of soil is better suited for a toxic salt buildup to help flush out the majority of salts. Flushing with plain water may seem like it would flush out the nuits better but thats just a miscconception. But the reason you should flush is because you want to "flush" out all the chemicals that aren't natural to the plant that have gotten there due to the non-organic aspects of your fertilizers. Not flushing will lead to harsh smoke due to those chemicals still in the bud. If you listen to the bud burn and you hear alot of snap crackle and popping just like the cereal thats due to the chemicals still remaining in the bud. I would also suggest flushin atleast the last week but probably not more than two. it really depends on your strain and how much chemicals you've actually put into the plant. so with the time frame youll have to do a lil trial and error, taking into acount the balance between the time it takes for a nutrient deficiency in your plant and how long its going to take before you cut your plants. you dont want to flush too early beacuse your plants aren't going to have enough nuits to finish growing and you dont want to wait to late because your not going to get enough of the chemicals out. remember your not trying to just get the nuits out of the soil your using a solution of mostly water to feed your plants. this makes the plant use all that it has stored up in itself, flushing the bud clean. but its deffinatly worth the effort.
canefan
Well-Known Member
Been growing since 1968, always organically and truthfully wouldn't know how to flush....lol. Over the years I have changed ingredients to my mix but all most all to the same end result. I honestly can't remember a harsh crop that I dried and cured properly, of course I have been lazy at times or forgetful. That being said I certainly can't see why I would want to stress my plant the last week or two. On these forums you see all this talk about stress for this or that and the do's and don'ts to make your plant stress free and then want to starve the poor girl when organically there is no need. In essence you are destorying the soil that you have made and all the microbes you have been building for months.
I have started growing in containers the past 3 years which is certainly different than in raised beds or straight into the ground. I still have great worm populations in each container when the grow is over, to flush throughly would damage this, microbes and the worms.
Thanks for all the great posts to read and add to my library for the future. I think that if you use plain water maybe a touch of hydrogen peroxide in the water....this makes it have the same basic properties of rainwater, the last watering or two and take your time to dry properly (not a quick dry), the dry should be as slow as possible given the conditions and cured for at least a month before smoking. Doing this I promise you will never have harsh smoke.
Thanks again for the links and posts Happy Growing and Merry Christmas to all
I have started growing in containers the past 3 years which is certainly different than in raised beds or straight into the ground. I still have great worm populations in each container when the grow is over, to flush throughly would damage this, microbes and the worms.
Thanks for all the great posts to read and add to my library for the future. I think that if you use plain water maybe a touch of hydrogen peroxide in the water....this makes it have the same basic properties of rainwater, the last watering or two and take your time to dry properly (not a quick dry), the dry should be as slow as possible given the conditions and cured for at least a month before smoking. Doing this I promise you will never have harsh smoke.
Thanks again for the links and posts Happy Growing and Merry Christmas to all
ultimatelysoothed
Member
so after reading this i am much less concerned about forgetting to flush so late in my flowering.....that being said i have a question for whoever has got an answer. i am nearing harvest time for my lemon skunk (you can see pictures of it in the link in my sig) and was wondering how abouts to go with flushing it. i WAS going to just feed her water from now till it is time to chop her, nutes have been fox farm big bloom and grow big occasionally....should i really be worried about flushing with these organic nutes? can she get more at this point or should i just keep feeding her only water? and should i flush with the 3x water method or just keep watering her normally with water? as for now i think it is preference and will most likely just water her with plain water till harvest...
