laughingduck
Well-Known Member
Agree 100%! I now have no confidence the U.S. will get better. I guess its been a good run, I think we were still the longest lasting democracy. And now we will fall into the dark ages! wwweeee!
Congresswoman on Palin's "Hit List" shot
- Thread starter tet1953
- Start date
undertheice
Well-Known Member
so you want strategy? look to a government that systematically ignores its poor and guides them across its northern border. look to a government that would rather have its neighbors deal with its rampant poverty than invest in its own infrastructure that provides the necessary employment opportunities. look to a government run exclusively by the rich for the rich and utterly corrupt from top to bottom.
"going broke and starving" is the reality faced by many of these illegal immigrants if they remain in their homes. so what choice do they have but to cross the border and avail themselves of the corrupt welfare state to the north, if their own leaders refuse to do anything more than ignore their plight. how's that for a strategy? simply force your own poor onto your neighbor's lands and overwhelm them with sheer numbers. not only does this strategy give you influence in your neighbor's communities, it also relieves you of the necessity of taking care of your own poor and enriches your coffers, as those emigrants send home their earnings to support the families they left behind. behind only oil revenues, remittance payments are mexico's second largest source of income and it can hardly be denied that a huge percentage of those funds come from those working here illegally.
while y'all are so intent on supporting the supposed "rights" of these illegal immigrants to come here and enrich themselves, you might try to remember that we have our own poor to think about, our own employment problems and our own collapsing economy. supporting the poor around the world is a noble concept, but forcing your neighbors to bear the burden of that support is neither noble nor feasible. how's that for anti-illegal immigration rhetoric.
ink the world
Well-Known Member
Some of us saw this coming 11 months ago, really sad. https://www.rollitup.org/politics/315440-conservatives-do-you-agree-w.html
Even sadder are the intelligent people here that see no connection to hateful rhetoric and this tragedy. When you appeal to extremists crackpots w/ stupid shit like "second amendment remedies" and "hitlists" complete w/ cross hairs this is the result. Pathetic and absolutely indefensible.
Even sadder are the intelligent people here that see no connection to hateful rhetoric and this tragedy. When you appeal to extremists crackpots w/ stupid shit like "second amendment remedies" and "hitlists" complete w/ cross hairs this is the result. Pathetic and absolutely indefensible.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
No more pathetic and absolutely indefensible than politicizing a tragedy.
Calling a political campaign document a 'hit list' is nothing more than blatant hyperbole.
Journalists and other writers use the word 'crosshairs' as a METAPHOR, too.
This the opportunity partisans have been hoping for. Now they are getting their licks in.
BRAVO!
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
Instead of focusing on the tragedy of 6 people dying people jump onto the finger pointing bandwagon only increasing the anger of the situation.
I dont think the 9 year old little girl had registered her political party yet...
Until we drop the us vs them attitude that the government fosters to keep us divided we will never be able to move significantly forward as a nation.
I dont think the 9 year old little girl had registered her political party yet...
Until we drop the us vs them attitude that the government fosters to keep us divided we will never be able to move significantly forward as a nation.
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
I would completely agree under one condition:
That everyone realizes that this strategy, the campaign strategies used in the past 2 and change years are real. I am sure that no one wanted this to happen, but when you act, display, broadcast, twitter, hold events, and the such you are attached to anything that may happen in the future as a result of your words. Thank god this didn't happen at a "tea party" town hall or there would be civil war and Obama would be demonized, if not worse. Probably worse.
There is a distinction here, that for several years, under a national platform, funded corporately this mindset has had an incubator.
A loud, in your face, accepted incubator. First amendment rights protect speech, not consequences.
I would love to say that I am not pointing fingers, but I can only draw so many lines before the connection is clear.
Am I saying the Tea Party is responsible? No...Accountable? No...Guilty by association? More than likely, especially in the general publics eyes.
It needs to be acknowledged in order to be properly addressed, as with any problem. There needs to be a public repudiation of such campaign tactics whether connected or not, and it hasn't happened.
I watched for every opportunity on TV, online, print media, and every Tea Party member questioned ignored that the tactics even existed, much less addressed them at all.
We know they were real, side stepping the issue will do nothing but make it worse.
Address, Own, Repudiate, Move On, the public can respect that. We were all caught up in that kind of zeitgeist, we understand. What they can't do is ignore it or they will be strung up by both the republicans and most of all the democrats.
Republicans want the tea party gone just as much, if not more than the dems. There was a clear distinction between the Republicans and Tea Party on this issue...Everyone knows it was sad, and a tragedy, but there was a clear lesson here for everyone. I think Keith Olbermann summed it up the best (hate him or not) I encourage everyone to watch his commentary on this issue, and how no one is out of the guilt.
That everyone realizes that this strategy, the campaign strategies used in the past 2 and change years are real. I am sure that no one wanted this to happen, but when you act, display, broadcast, twitter, hold events, and the such you are attached to anything that may happen in the future as a result of your words. Thank god this didn't happen at a "tea party" town hall or there would be civil war and Obama would be demonized, if not worse. Probably worse.
There is a distinction here, that for several years, under a national platform, funded corporately this mindset has had an incubator.
A loud, in your face, accepted incubator. First amendment rights protect speech, not consequences.
I would love to say that I am not pointing fingers, but I can only draw so many lines before the connection is clear.
Am I saying the Tea Party is responsible? No...Accountable? No...Guilty by association? More than likely, especially in the general publics eyes.
It needs to be acknowledged in order to be properly addressed, as with any problem. There needs to be a public repudiation of such campaign tactics whether connected or not, and it hasn't happened.
I watched for every opportunity on TV, online, print media, and every Tea Party member questioned ignored that the tactics even existed, much less addressed them at all.
We know they were real, side stepping the issue will do nothing but make it worse.
Address, Own, Repudiate, Move On, the public can respect that. We were all caught up in that kind of zeitgeist, we understand. What they can't do is ignore it or they will be strung up by both the republicans and most of all the democrats.
Republicans want the tea party gone just as much, if not more than the dems. There was a clear distinction between the Republicans and Tea Party on this issue...Everyone knows it was sad, and a tragedy, but there was a clear lesson here for everyone. I think Keith Olbermann summed it up the best (hate him or not) I encourage everyone to watch his commentary on this issue, and how no one is out of the guilt.
tet1953
Well-Known Member
It is unfortunate that this congresswoman was one of the targets in Palin's ad. However, based on what I'm hearing so far about the shooter, he is no right-winger. Mein Kampf? Communist Manifesto? These are not on the reading list of a Tea Partier. Don't get me wrong, I think Tea Partiers are whack jobs too, but I don't think we can blame Laughner's actions on them. He's just a nut case.
It's impossible for this event to NOT be politicized because of the inflammatory rhetoric that some opposing political individuals have been espousing and the steady increase of violence against the victim leading up to this tragedy. Do you also believe it was just some lone, politically unmotivated psychopaths who also sent threatening communications to her office and vandalized it? I think it is no coincidence.
Calling a political campaign document a "hit list" is nothing more than blatant irresponsibility. In case you haven't noticed, politics is a line a work you can actually be killed in. Getting a hit put on you is a real possibility, and it's not like it's the first time it's happened either (didn't think all that security our elected officials get was for looks did you?). To suggest the death of a political opponent in a non-serious vein is immature and dangerous; to suggest such seriously is just plain dangerous. You don't hear undertakers use the term "dead as a doornail" at work because it lacks tact and is a phrase very much relevant to their situation. Likewise, when you are in a position of authority and recognize the threat of a hit is real (against you or others) and realize (or at least SHOULD) that some of your listeners may agree very closely with you but may be of the "extreme" persuasion, it would be behoove one to not consider the inflammatory nature of their language in that situation.
NLXSK1
Well-Known Member
There is no mouth hanging open smiley.
I cannot possibly imagine you believe this. Some people are willing to use anything to justify their hate for a group not even remotely associated with this guy.
Hudson? You are not worth it to have a discussion with. You are so blinded by your ideology as to ever be able to look at a tragic situation aside from the politics.
I am done with this..
undertheice
Well-Known Member
what's truly sad is that there are people who so firmly believe that we should live our lives by rules that pertain only to these worst case scenarios. any sane person would realize that terminology like "hit list" only means that those people should be removed from office, but the partisan hacks on the left are using this tragedy to emphasize their agenda of control. this isn't "hateful rhetoric", it's political posing and everyone knows it. it's the same sort of thing said a thousand times before by both sides. how many times did we hear calls for baby bush's execution during his eight years in office? did anyone but the most delusional ever even consider taking those comments seriously? no, but a chance to point the finger at the conservative faction just can't be passed up.
it's time the liberal loons realized that conservatism is not an extremist stance, but that the extremism of the left has been mainstreamed by the shepherds of that flock. the idea of individual liberty is not a fringe idea, it is at the very core of the ideals this country was founded upon. the radical, pathetic and absolutely indefensible position is that we should be forced to give up the idea of individual liberty for the sake of corrupt governmental control, an expanding welfare state and this prissy ideals of political correctness.
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Im not saying that they meant for this, but when you push for a certain angle, over and over and over and over, and cheer on the people bringing guns to political events, then guess what?
When something like this happens, even though you have nothing directly to do with it, just b/c you took on that past behavior makes you synonymous with the event.
That is why this thread got started...is it not? Would there be any debate at all had those behaviors not existed? No.
So here we are.
All I am saying is that no matter how much you don't think so, a large amount of the population is looking at this event as a progression of something else. a
And whether or not that is true, the tea party better get out there and start kissing ass and apologizing for their campaign behavior to prevent a PR blowout.
After all this is a political world, and the media they used to rise to power can easily turn on them now with such controversy.
When something like this happens, even though you have nothing directly to do with it, just b/c you took on that past behavior makes you synonymous with the event.
That is why this thread got started...is it not? Would there be any debate at all had those behaviors not existed? No.
So here we are.
All I am saying is that no matter how much you don't think so, a large amount of the population is looking at this event as a progression of something else. a
And whether or not that is true, the tea party better get out there and start kissing ass and apologizing for their campaign behavior to prevent a PR blowout.
After all this is a political world, and the media they used to rise to power can easily turn on them now with such controversy.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
Political assassination existed long before the Tea Party existed.
Right out of the gate, Progressive commentators and bloggers assailed the Teabaggers, Fox News, and Republicans before they knew ANY of the facts of the case.
Now it looks like the suspect is nuttier than a squirrel turd.
That little inconvenient fact does not advance your argument so I expect it to be ignored.
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Umm yes it was hateful rhetoric. A National Platform of hateful rhetoric. Sure tons of people wanted bush to get shot. Not one dem ever had a rally with people holding signs of him with targets on him. There is a difference here.
Granted there are people on both sides of the spectrum that are extremists and mention violent behavior. This is the first time since the civil war that a Political Movement, and a Party (libertarian/conservation/tea whatever you call it) made a national, well funded, targeted push in that direction.
People don't go around screaming, yelling, and carrying on at town halls because they are taking everything with a grain of salt do they? No. They are upset with the government. Instead of putting forth realistic solutions to those grievances, they powers to be decided to harness that anger, and up the political ante. Well one thing leads to another, and some "Political Genius" steps up talking about reload, and putting targets on congressional districts, which does make for great theater. However, when a bunch of people are dead, with all to much irony behind it all, yes, it is irresponsible not to ask such questions.
No one asked questions when Hitler was doing the same thing. (like how I turned the Hitler reference against the tea party?) No one asked questions when the first jew was killed. So things progressed.
There is that sentiment here in the US (as well as every population) of extremism, and it is very powerful. Powerful enough to over throw governments (taliban, germany, sudan, ect...). That is why it should be shameful to tap into that mindset for political purposes. That is EXACTLY what the Tea Party organizers did. They picked an extreme and made it okay to be that extreme.
There is a very good chance that this killing is more than just "a guy being disturbed". There is a much better chance, that an act like this, against who it was against, taking into account the circumstances, the political climate, and the setting, was exacerbated and executed because a disturbed man was pushed over the edge.
That is why your best friend Nancy Pelosi addressed this months ago, that is why us "pussy liberals" have been scorning the degree of political discourse in this country, cuz shit like this happens if you let it go unchecked. Whats even worse is that it is very hard to undo.
So respectfully I see this conversation as a thorough exploration of cause and effect, intended or not. This guy wasn't going off about the gold standard just because of some random consequence, (brings into mind an exchange which occurred on a similar thread) clearly there is political motives behind it.
Since that political motive exists, so should the questions and issues brought up on this thread. This tragedy was no accident, it was supposed to be a message. Ironically the same message of a certain political party that is pretty extreme itself.
And make no mistake, the tea party is widely viewed as extreme by most of the American public. There is a difference between conservatism and whatever the tea party is.
Granted there are people on both sides of the spectrum that are extremists and mention violent behavior. This is the first time since the civil war that a Political Movement, and a Party (libertarian/conservation/tea whatever you call it) made a national, well funded, targeted push in that direction.
People don't go around screaming, yelling, and carrying on at town halls because they are taking everything with a grain of salt do they? No. They are upset with the government. Instead of putting forth realistic solutions to those grievances, they powers to be decided to harness that anger, and up the political ante. Well one thing leads to another, and some "Political Genius" steps up talking about reload, and putting targets on congressional districts, which does make for great theater. However, when a bunch of people are dead, with all to much irony behind it all, yes, it is irresponsible not to ask such questions.
No one asked questions when Hitler was doing the same thing. (like how I turned the Hitler reference against the tea party?) No one asked questions when the first jew was killed. So things progressed.
There is that sentiment here in the US (as well as every population) of extremism, and it is very powerful. Powerful enough to over throw governments (taliban, germany, sudan, ect...). That is why it should be shameful to tap into that mindset for political purposes. That is EXACTLY what the Tea Party organizers did. They picked an extreme and made it okay to be that extreme.
There is a very good chance that this killing is more than just "a guy being disturbed". There is a much better chance, that an act like this, against who it was against, taking into account the circumstances, the political climate, and the setting, was exacerbated and executed because a disturbed man was pushed over the edge.
That is why your best friend Nancy Pelosi addressed this months ago, that is why us "pussy liberals" have been scorning the degree of political discourse in this country, cuz shit like this happens if you let it go unchecked. Whats even worse is that it is very hard to undo.
So respectfully I see this conversation as a thorough exploration of cause and effect, intended or not. This guy wasn't going off about the gold standard just because of some random consequence, (brings into mind an exchange which occurred on a similar thread) clearly there is political motives behind it.
Since that political motive exists, so should the questions and issues brought up on this thread. This tragedy was no accident, it was supposed to be a message. Ironically the same message of a certain political party that is pretty extreme itself.
And make no mistake, the tea party is widely viewed as extreme by most of the American public. There is a difference between conservatism and whatever the tea party is.
Johnnyorganic
Well-Known Member
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Show me pictures of them in a democratically funded campaign
Conservatism isn't extremist. The makeshift plutocracy they've done their best to install over the past 4 decades is. The last real conservative died with Barry Goldwater. Now we have socially-uber-conservatives that are fiscally insane.
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
The only 1 I could find is a beautifully constructed guillotine beheading bush outside of a campaign stop for Obama in '08. Needless to say, the president has denounced such behavior on both the campaign trail and while in office.
The tea party have not, it has encouraged it.
The tea party have not, it has encouraged it.
Anjinsan
Well-Known Member
Seriously you know who is fucked up? All of you douchebags who want to blame anyone but who actually pulled the fucking trigger.
All of you who blame Palin or whomever...you are just like Al Gore's bitch ass wife Tipper Gore. Music must be censored because it'll
make people worship the devil and cause mass suicides.
You and Tipper Gore...same brain...one of you has a shit load less money.
Fucking pathetic. You get yourselves all whipped up into a fury talking to other douchebags like yourselves on messageboards until
you become exactly what you hate. A radical.
The d00d was 22 years old and waaaaaaaay into conspiracy theories. End of story.
But noooooooo. This HAS to be the fault of a political party...right?
Newsflash...the politicians do not like you...do not know you...but if they did...they probably look down upon you.
You want to rally behind one of them?
All of you who blame Palin or whomever...you are just like Al Gore's bitch ass wife Tipper Gore. Music must be censored because it'll
make people worship the devil and cause mass suicides.
You and Tipper Gore...same brain...one of you has a shit load less money.
Fucking pathetic. You get yourselves all whipped up into a fury talking to other douchebags like yourselves on messageboards until
you become exactly what you hate. A radical.
The d00d was 22 years old and waaaaaaaay into conspiracy theories. End of story.
But noooooooo. This HAS to be the fault of a political party...right?
Newsflash...the politicians do not like you...do not know you...but if they did...they probably look down upon you.
You want to rally behind one of them?
PeachOibleBoiblePeach#1
Well-Known Member
You sound a bit disturbed
Hudsonvalley82
Well-Known Member
Way to miss the point bucko.
What I am looking for is a repudiation of the behavior of their campaign.
I am not saying they are involved, what I am saying is that when a fucking nut job, gets a semi auto, loses his reason to think straight, shots a politician and a crowd up, that something brought him to do that exact action. Normal crazy people kill their ex-girlfriend or something nuts. The last thing they need is a cause that promotes violence and revolution. Spewing perversions of Jeffersonian quotes, bring firearms to political rallies, having a key public and highly political figure mention using second amendment solutions or whatever.
Actions and calls to violence have been repudiated on the left, and the right, but the people with in the tea party refuse to acknowledge their role in setting up an environment as such. Until they acknowledge that role, then it cannot be dealt with. They should own their actions (and this shooting is NOT one of their actions) and denounce them, that way other nut jobs out there see that the proposed "second amendment" take back of the government was simply political theater. Some people clearly can tell the difference...
What I am looking for is a repudiation of the behavior of their campaign.
I am not saying they are involved, what I am saying is that when a fucking nut job, gets a semi auto, loses his reason to think straight, shots a politician and a crowd up, that something brought him to do that exact action. Normal crazy people kill their ex-girlfriend or something nuts. The last thing they need is a cause that promotes violence and revolution. Spewing perversions of Jeffersonian quotes, bring firearms to political rallies, having a key public and highly political figure mention using second amendment solutions or whatever.
Actions and calls to violence have been repudiated on the left, and the right, but the people with in the tea party refuse to acknowledge their role in setting up an environment as such. Until they acknowledge that role, then it cannot be dealt with. They should own their actions (and this shooting is NOT one of their actions) and denounce them, that way other nut jobs out there see that the proposed "second amendment" take back of the government was simply political theater. Some people clearly can tell the difference...