LED Grow Lights vs. HID

Spuzzum

Spuzzum

Well-Known Member
Well I must say.. THAT'S a freakin' heatsink!! VERY well done! Even has fuses I see.. well thought out.

You should e-mail them back and mention about the thermal breaker idea.. similar to what's in your clothes dryer at home, or in a spot heater. That would definitely add a finishing touch of safety.

But.. from that heatsink alone, I'd say that's the best panel I've seen yet.. never mind what diodes are being used. :)
 
J

jabbrwocky

Member
LED are more more efficient.

HPS waste ~80% of its emission on wave lengths that do not promote photosynthesis.
Making a HPS ~ 20% efficient

HPS were invented in 1931 for alternative lighting, industrial, street lights, etc. They were not invented to promote photosynthesis or for growing. People have been fine tuning them for years to help but it still doesn't change the fact that they are not designed for promoting photosynthesis, there for will probably never be as efficient. as a light that is.
Lets get started

(rule of thumb is to not use watts for comparison this is for show only)
A 1000 watt HPS @ 20% eff. only has about ~200watts of effective lighting(for photosynthesis)
A 1000 watt HPS @ 150k lumen. in a 5x5 room is (150k/25) 6k lumen sqft ..... now add in the 20% efficacy (6000x .20)and you have 1200 lumen that are utilized...wasting about 4800 lumen...WOW! what a wasteful light. So what you thought was 6k lumen sq ft is really only 1200 lumen.

Whats even scarier is when you calculate the intensity of lumen over the distance from the point source. Now same light, same lumen hung 1.5 feet from the point source is now only (150k/1.5 squared = 66666 lumen / 25 )2666 lumen sq-ft..but WAIT at 20% eff its really only 533 lumen per sqft...but to the human eye...1k watt of hps is still just as bright and just as hot.


(certain)LEDs are 90% effective

This means that a 1000 watt HPS @ 20% eff is equal to a 223 Watt LED at 90% eff.
I hope this is making sense now.

because 1000 * .20 = 200 and 223 * .90 =200

Thats where the whole mines 4x better then your HPS comes from. However this assumes that the HPS is at 20% eff and that their LED is at 90% eff. these values might vary but not by much i would say +- 10% which would still make the lead the better of the two.

LEDs are tuned to hit and stay within wavelengths that promote Photosynthesis making them IDEAL for growing. They are ridiculously expensive BUT, they are better and if you use the same lumen per sq-ft you use with HPS you will be shocked. .


For example if you use HPS and you usually go with 7k lumen a sq-ft @ 20% eff. thats only really 1400 lumen of viable wavelength per sq-ft. the rest is garbage lumen that's not needed.

For LED you would need 1556 lumen a sq-ft @ 90% eff would give you the same 1400 lumen

LED can pack more viable lumen per sqft then a HPS can. FOR EXAMPLE With LED you can do 3k lumen a sq-ft witch is equivalent to about 15000 lumen per sq-ft from a HID. you could probably do more just imagine.

Its important to take note if your gonna do led, do the math first dont just by one cause they say it can replace what you have. It has to be done right, its not cheap, and you cant afford to be cheap or else youll just be wasting your time, go big or go home, i hope this cleared up some of the air on LEDs.

also not that using watts for comparison is not the best since its lumen that we use to measure light we see, for these purposes its ok cause i dont think the ratio of lumen to watt is a issue, its more the effectiveness of the lumen



I hope some of this helps
 
J

jdizzle22

Well-Known Member
This means that a 1000 watt HPS @ 20% eff is equal to a 223 Watt LED at 90% eff.
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If you go by that math yes. But I'll tell the whole world right now, there is no way in hell you can grow as much pot with a 223watt LED as you can with a 1000w HPS. Also lumens aren't exactly the best thing to measure lights by, as lumens is a rating of the light put off that humans can see. And for anyone looking to buy into LED make sure you know the total wattage draw. >90% of LED companies will say they're light is (for example) 240w. This is because it has say eighty 3w lights (80x3=240), this is misleading though because LEDS can't be run as close to full power because it degrades them too quickly and puts off too much heat. So with most people if their light is 240w it is really only running about 120-150w. So be sure when you buy lights you know the true wattage.

If I remember correctly most 2w LEDs run about 1.5w as well as most 3w LEDS running about 1.5w. Be sure to ask the seller the true wattage if it isn't obviously stated. The only company I know of that tells you upfront hte actual wattage draw is growledhydro Spectra LED lights. I got a 395w 2011 Spectra myself, it should grow as much as a 600w HID I imagine, more if I'm lucky (but it certainly can't grow as much as 2000w of HID)
 
Canon

Canon

Well-Known Member
jabbrwocky said:
LED are more more efficient.

HPS waste ~80% of its emission on wave lengths that do not promote photosynthesis.
Making a HPS ~ 20% efficient

HPS were invented in....
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Hahaha,,, Just went through all that to select one.

And what Jdizzle22 says I think has merrit also.

Somewhere in the middle is what I figured.

My little closet running a straight 250 HPS (50 usable watts?) is being replaced(? - tested) with a 180w, 6 band with 2 w diodes.
Figured 180 is probably 120 in use. Since the usable being higher, I expect improvement, though maybe not noticable.

Puzzle for me was, Combination 60 & 120 deg. angle? What's with that?
Should I adjust for the 60 deg? How do you see the 60 deg lights, different color or something?
Are the 60s going to cover my 2' X2 1/2' at a working heigth?

Went ahead with it (hopefully in the mails) but I do have doubts.
Anything for an experiment though, I've gotta know! (sorry)

I'm pretty certain I'm going to want to cover my flat white walls with mylar though.
 
J

jdizzle22

Well-Known Member
There is a huge world of difference between LEDs with a lens angle as low as 60 or as high as 120. 60 will give you more penetration but a smaller foot print and the differen't lights might not mix together as well, where as with 120 you get a massive but weaker foot print. I would go with 60 instead of 120 any time though. As an LED isn't idea lfor spreading light out far anyway, even 400 actual watt LED lights are probably only really good for a 3x3 area. Another reason I went with Spectra LEDs is because Mike tested himself on cannabis and found that 60 and 120 were too extreme and 90 degree lens angles seemed to be a good middle ground between penetration and spread.

Imagine yourself. You should probably keep the light say 12in above the plant. Now look at it and imagine the light coming out of the LEDs with a 60 degree spread vs a 120. Or draw a line and then a 60 degree line off of it and a 120 like this |< (MASSIVE difference between 60 and 120, obviously 60 is better than 120).

Think of the lens angle like you would the reflector for an HID light. The LEDs have a tiny little lense on them and most LED lights go with 60s, 120s, or some mix of the two. The cheap crappy ones might not have any lens at all.

You should do pretty well with that UFO. I would go with UFOs, Spectra, or Kessils myself. I;ve gone spectra so far, but I recently realized how much extra room I have in my ATCS 840 case and that I could slap a UFO in there and use it as a veg chamber before putting plants under my 395w total draw Spectra LED
 
Canon

Canon

Well-Known Member
jdizzle22 said:
There is a huge world of difference between LEDs with a lens angle as low as 60 or as high as 120. 60 will give you more penetration but a smaller foot print and the differen't lights might not mix together as well.....
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Kind of understood all that. Just don't understand why they'd mix them like that. Purpose or economics of the lights used.
Maybe just a couple that are needed just a little are 120 deg?
Think I'll call the number tomorrow and see what the story(?) is.
 
660nm420

660nm420

Active Member
Spuzzum said:
From what I've been seeing, they create way tighter buds than a hid, and those with success, have all said way more crystal than hid! .. Why would you want a hid??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCXhj0iP0Mc
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Some people are stuck in their ways so trust those who have made the switch. You have to remember some HID users never pay a penny for their wattage through bypassing the meter so why would they want to reinvest in some new, better tech??
 
DrFever

DrFever

New Member
660nm420 said:
Some people are stuck in their ways so trust those who have made the switch. You have to remember some HID users never pay a penny for their wattage through bypassing the meter so why would they want to reinvest in some new, better tech??
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why would you say better tech ???
i saw pics of led from someone on this site 23 days veg and my hids blew that away BAD :)) i use hordilux super blue thats MH and hps in one bulb look at this pic from a 3" clone to now 25 days and in flower
 

Attachments

darkdestruction420

darkdestruction420

Well-Known Member
660nm420 said:
Some people are stuck in their ways so trust those who have made the switch. You have to remember some HID users never pay a penny for their wattage through bypassing the meter so why would they want to reinvest in some new, better tech??
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The only ones who do that are the stupid ones who want to lose everything they have in the world.......
 
J

jdizzle22

Well-Known Member
DrFever said:
why would you say better tech ???
i saw pics of led from someone on this site 23 days veg and my hids blew that away BAD :)) i use hordilux super blue thats MH and hps in one bulb look at this pic from a 3" clone to now 25 days and in flower
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Crappy LED light and probably over estimating its capabilities
 
S

Sensisansei

Member
Im know the future of indoor Medicle marijuana is not going to be dominated by HID lighting yet as a member saind b4 they have seen a hid blow away a LED in veg. as have I. I know that somewhere in the near future LED's wil be the rage! Although i believe they ae a different type bulb than many gow led's seen. Check out apothecary seeds and look closely at the LED's Brett Bouge has flowering those beauties! Which i cant even imagine how mych that room cost! Its inevidable that we improve our HID's and change to a more efficient form or growth yet what is the deal with overlooking 4t5 HO lights. Iver seen people pull just as much weight from 3 four ft. 8 bulb tek lights & a 1000hps at the end of room but its not cost efficient to build an LED room )for myself thats as big as what ineed for veg./Mothers, The boy room, and flower rooms. I wish i had the money to make it the same wattage in LED's yet i finde going with a simple 600hps&400mh+1000hortilux blue eye which wuns off all my ballists and gives a much beter spectrum. I have danced with tek T5 Ho, LED's, and evey kind of flourie or hid to both flower and veg. and dhonestly the LED was expensive and a dissapointment. That was about four years ago and i know they are improving yet i will wait till they have a awiable product that works to my liking.
 
J

jdizzle22

Well-Known Member
walkerGrower said:
I purchased my LED grow lights from ALL LED. There products come with a 90 day money back guarantee, along with a 3 year limited warranty and they are in US. It was definitely the best investment I've ever made! Works great

www.allled.com

~Colorado Grower
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Nice first post :P
How about you show us some pics of your grows with these lights?
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
jdizzle22 said:
Watt for Watt good LED lights can outgrow Mh and HPS now. Its really quite obvious they should be able to do this with HID lights wasting 80% of their power and LED lights wasting less than 10% (usually they say they are 95% efficient and HID lights are 20% or less). Although if you put a great 400w LED against a 400w HPS there wouldn't be say a 50% yield difference, but the LED should grow more. Here are some great LED grows for anyone who doubts you can go seed to harvest with LED and get great products (one of these following grows using LED won plant of the month and was the first LED plant to have won the award).


http://www.420magazine.com/forums/journals-progress/132192-irish-boys-480w-720w-grow-led-hydro-land-clovers.html
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/completed-journals/123361-growledhydros-600w-led-vs-600w-hps-irie.html
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/completed-journals/124858-setting-suns-growledhydro-300w-led-vs-400w-hid-demonstration.html
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/completed-journals/105950-led-grow-test-xxx-vs-180w.html
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/journals-progress/112167-irish-boys-glh-600w-led-grow.html
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/journals-progress/120973-irishboys-1080w-glh-inferno.html

Irish boy has been using www.growledhydro.com Spectra LED lights
here is a link that shows pics of the new 2011 models and some of their specs (website is out of date)
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/journals-progress/132192-irish-boys-480w-720w-grow-led-hydro-land-clovers-49.html

I plan on getting two 240w Spectras myself over the coming weeks.

And yeah I checked out all the growledhydro Spectra grows I could find on that website. Watt for watt they grow a little more than MH/HPS, and they appear to grow higher quality pot (same smell and taste as MH/HPS but stronger). But I would still tell people that as amazing as LED lights have become, that the heat issues are really the only big reason to switch to LED from HID because they are a lot more expensive up front (although you wouldn't need to have supporting hardware (fans, ballasts, venting, etc) for the LED like you would the HID).
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LED's put out around 60 lumens per Watt ( http://members.misty.com/don/lede.html ), the very Best LED's put out 100 Lumens per watt. HPS lights put out an average of 125 lumens per watt. ( http://www.buzzle.com/articles/why-high-pressure-sodium-light-bulbs-are-used-in-street-lighting.html ) proving once again for the nth time that HPS lights are still the most efficient lighting source commercially available.
 
J

jdizzle22

Well-Known Member
NoDrama said:
LED's put out around 60 lumens per Watt ( http://members.misty.com/don/lede.html ), the very Best LED's put out 100 Lumens per watt. HPS lights put out an average of 125 lumens per watt. ( http://www.buzzle.com/articles/why-high-pressure-sodium-light-bulbs-are-used-in-street-lighting.html ) proving once again for the nth time that HPS lights are still the most efficient lighting source commercially available.
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Except that lumens are a measure of brightness that humans can see and not an actual measure of how much light the plants have to use. HID puts out more lumens but a great amount of that light is useless for the plants compared to a good LED
 
smokebros

smokebros

Well-Known Member
LEDs are overrated. If you can get a good deal on them, great; But they are only supplemental lights, darn good ones but expensive supplemental lights
 
J

jdizzle22

Well-Known Member
smokebros said:
LEDs are overrated. If you can get a good deal on them, great; But they are only supplemental lights, darn good ones but expensive supplemental lights
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sorry but I think you are wrong, there are many great LED grows out there an some are even winning 'of the month' awards on 420mag. Good LED lights are expensive though, I replaced my 400w HID system with a $1200 395w (total/actual draw) LED system that should be about as good if not better than 500w HID (probably = to 600w HID in a SCROG)
 
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