Wisconsin Revolt

[angelsbandit]

The bottom line is:

The majority of voters (the actual employers of government union workers) have grown tired of being forced to give Unions more than they themselves have.

This is not the Governor against the people - it is the Unions against the people, and their elected Governor.

 

[Alphakronik]

The bottom line is:

The majority of voters (the actual employers of government union workers) have grown tired of being forced to give Unions more than they themselves have.

This is not the Governor against the people - it is the Unions against the people, and their elected Governor.

Not quite. Here are the current poll numbers as of this morning:

 

[MrDank007]

Unions should not be allowed in the public sector. That's incestous, corrupt and bleeding the tax payer. It's a self-serving bureaucracy cannibalizing itself and its environment.

 

[Alphakronik]

Unions should not be allowed in the public sector. That's incestous, corrupt and bleeding the tax payer. It's a self-serving bureaucracy cannibalizing itself and its environment.

Contrary to conventional wisdom that public employees across our nation are collecting bigger paychecks than their counterparts in the private sector, the Economic Policy Institute has found quite the contrary. That's true in Wisconsin and Ohio, which have become the latest battle fronts in the right-wing's 65-year-long effort to gut the legal collective bargaining rights of Americans that were established after decades of bloody struggle during the New Deal.

In Wisconsin, which has become a focal point in this debate, public servants already take a pretty hefty pay cut just for the opportunity to serve their communities ... The figure below shows that when comparing the total compensation (which includes non-wage benefits such as health care and pensions) of workers with similar education, public-sector workers consistently make less than their private–sector peers. Workers with a bachelor’s degree or more—which constitute nearly 60% of the state and local workforce in Wisconsin—are compensated between $20,000 less (if they just have a bachelor’s degree) to over $82,000 a year less (if they have a professional degree, such as in law or medicine).​

Here are the figures broken down by education, as evaluated by EPI.

The deficit that Wisconsin faces is caused by the current economic downturn and the recent tax cut package. It has nothing to do with the compensation of the people that educate our children, keep the streets safe and clean, keep dangerous chemicals out of our water, and keep insurance companies from taking advantage of us. These public servants are already paid less than those in the private sector, and nationally, this gap has actually been increasing over the past few decades ...​

The situation in Ohio is quite similar. In a "rigorous analysis" of full-time state and local government workers in Ohio, EPI found that they are undercompensated by 6 percent. The analysts screened for variables including hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, experience, citizenship and disability.
Among EPI's findings:

• On an annual basis, full‐time state and local workers and school employees are undercompensated by 6.0% in Ohio, in comparison with otherwise similar private‐sector workers. When comparisons are made for differences in annual hours worked, the gap remains, albeit at a smaller percentage of 3.5%. • Ohio public‐sector workers are more highly educated than private‐sector workers; 49% of full‐ time public‐sector workers hold at least a four‐year college degree, compared with 26% in the private‐sector.
• Ohio’s state and local governments and school districts pay college‐educated workers 25% less in total compensation, on average, than private employers.
• In addition to having higher education levels, Ohio state and local government employees, on average, are also more experienced (23.2 years) than their private‐sector counterparts (21.7 years).
​

While some of the effects of the Great Recession have had a delayed impact on public employees, that impact is being felt big time now. Tens of thousands of lay-offs, furlough days, pay freezes and pay-cuts, and a continuing assault on public employees' health benefits (something that has been going on through premium raises and cuts in coverage for years) are all part of the damage being done.
While the likes of renowned liar and Andrew Breitbart pretends to be a friend of the little guy who he claims is being gouged by public workers such as those in Wisconsin and Ohio, the truth is that the efforts now being carried out are a culmination of the long-standing attacks against the whole concept of unions. Breitbart, Rush Limbaugh and the governors are mere mouthpieces for an oligarchy feeling its oats and viewing the current situation as another opportunity to weaken the resistance to their agenda. One word, one attitude should describe the progressive agenda at this critical moment. It's a word and attitude we've seen revived in the past few days after a long dormancy: Solidarity!

 

[ink the world]

All things considered, if Wisconsin's Gov REALLY wanted to save that $130 million budget shortfall, they would remove the tax breaks they give Walmart of $140 million a year, and keep our public employees happy.

Exactly the point, he is trying to take from working people in the name of "balancing the budget" yet has no problem handing it to Walmart....Last I heard Walmart doesnt have a problem paying the mortgage.

Ive been listening to a lot of Tea Party supporters use the phrase "redistribution of wealth" over the last 2 years. I find it odd they support cutting blue collar salaries yet arent upset over all the corporate tax breaks and tax breaks for the wealthiest.

 

[Rob Roy]

Contrary to conventional wisdom that public employees across our nation are collecting bigger paychecks than their counterparts in the private sector, the Economic Policy Institute has found quite the contrary. That's true in Wisconsin and Ohio, which have become the latest battle fronts in the right-wing's 65-year-long effort to gut the legal collective bargaining rights of Americans that were established after decades of bloody struggle during the New Deal.

In Wisconsin, which has become a focal point in this debate, public servants already take a pretty hefty pay cut just for the opportunity to serve their communities ... The figure below shows that when comparing the total compensation (which includes non-wage benefits such as health care and pensions) of workers with similar education, public-sector workers consistently make less than their private–sector peers. Workers with a bachelor’s degree or more—which constitute nearly 60% of the state and local workforce in Wisconsin—are compensated between $20,000 less (if they just have a bachelor’s degree) to over $82,000 a year less (if they have a professional degree, such as in law or medicine).​

Here are the figures broken down by education, as evaluated by EPI.

The deficit that Wisconsin faces is caused by the current economic downturn and the recent tax cut package. It has nothing to do with the compensation of the people that educate our children, keep the streets safe and clean, keep dangerous chemicals out of our water, and keep insurance companies from taking advantage of us. These public servants are already paid less than those in the private sector, and nationally, this gap has actually been increasing over the past few decades ...​

The situation in Ohio is quite similar. In a "rigorous analysis" of full-time state and local government workers in Ohio, EPI found that they are undercompensated by 6 percent. The analysts screened for variables including hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, experience, citizenship and disability.
Among EPI's findings:

• On an annual basis, full‐time state and local workers and school employees are undercompensated by 6.0% in Ohio, in comparison with otherwise similar private‐sector workers. When comparisons are made for differences in annual hours worked, the gap remains, albeit at a smaller percentage of 3.5%. • Ohio public‐sector workers are more highly educated than private‐sector workers; 49% of full‐ time public‐sector workers hold at least a four‐year college degree, compared with 26% in the private‐sector.
• Ohio’s state and local governments and school districts pay college‐educated workers 25% less in total compensation, on average, than private employers.
• In addition to having higher education levels, Ohio state and local government employees, on average, are also more experienced (23.2 years) than their private‐sector counterparts (21.7 years).
​

While some of the effects of the Great Recession have had a delayed impact on public employees, that impact is being felt big time now. Tens of thousands of lay-offs, furlough days, pay freezes and pay-cuts, and a continuing assault on public employees' health benefits (something that has been going on through premium raises and cuts in coverage for years) are all part of the damage being done.
While the likes of renowned liar and Andrew Breitbart pretends to be a friend of the little guy who he claims is being gouged by public workers such as those in Wisconsin and Ohio, the truth is that the efforts now being carried out are a culmination of the long-standing attacks against the whole concept of unions. Breitbart, Rush Limbaugh and the governors are mere mouthpieces for an oligarchy feeling its oats and viewing the current situation as another opportunity to weaken the resistance to their agenda. One word, one attitude should describe the progressive agenda at this critical moment. It's a word and attitude we've seen revived in the past few days after a long dormancy: Solidarity!

Hello Alphaknronik,
One thing you failed to mention every penny paid a "public worker" is not gotten thru the normal channels of supply and demand. It is a false assumption to think that everybody wants those "services" also. For every person in the private sector being paid, the money came from people that made choices to purchase a service or product. Not so much in the ahem "public sector".


Also consider whether one set of people have any moral right to demand pay from others who may not want their "services". How do you justify that, by saying that a majority can bestow morality simply by being a majority? I'm curious if you feel that imposing on others is acceptable?

 

[NoDrama]

Contrary to conventional wisdom that public employees across our nation are collecting bigger paychecks than their counterparts in the private sector, the Economic Policy Institute has found quite the contrary. That's true in Wisconsin and Ohio, which have become the latest battle fronts in the right-wing's 65-year-long effort to gut the legal collective bargaining rights of Americans that were established after decades of bloody struggle during the New Deal.

In Wisconsin, which has become a focal point in this debate, public servants already take a pretty hefty pay cut just for the opportunity to serve their communities ... The figure below shows that when comparing the total compensation (which includes non-wage benefits such as health care and pensions) of workers with similar education, public-sector workers consistently make less than their private–sector peers. Workers with a bachelor’s degree or more—which constitute nearly 60% of the state and local workforce in Wisconsin—are compensated between $20,000 less (if they just have a bachelor’s degree) to over $82,000 a year less (if they have a professional degree, such as in law or medicine).​

Here are the figures broken down by education, as evaluated by EPI.

The deficit that Wisconsin faces is caused by the current economic downturn and the recent tax cut package. It has nothing to do with the compensation of the people that educate our children, keep the streets safe and clean, keep dangerous chemicals out of our water, and keep insurance companies from taking advantage of us. These public servants are already paid less than those in the private sector, and nationally, this gap has actually been increasing over the past few decades ...​

The situation in Ohio is quite similar. In a "rigorous analysis" of full-time state and local government workers in Ohio, EPI found that they are undercompensated by 6 percent. The analysts screened for variables including hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, experience, citizenship and disability.
Among EPI's findings:

• On an annual basis, full‐time state and local workers and school employees are undercompensated by 6.0% in Ohio, in comparison with otherwise similar private‐sector workers. When comparisons are made for differences in annual hours worked, the gap remains, albeit at a smaller percentage of 3.5%. • Ohio public‐sector workers are more highly educated than private‐sector workers; 49% of full‐ time public‐sector workers hold at least a four‐year college degree, compared with 26% in the private‐sector.
• Ohio’s state and local governments and school districts pay college‐educated workers 25% less in total compensation, on average, than private employers.
• In addition to having higher education levels, Ohio state and local government employees, on average, are also more experienced (23.2 years) than their private‐sector counterparts (21.7 years).
​

While some of the effects of the Great Recession have had a delayed impact on public employees, that impact is being felt big time now. Tens of thousands of lay-offs, furlough days, pay freezes and pay-cuts, and a continuing assault on public employees' health benefits (something that has been going on through premium raises and cuts in coverage for years) are all part of the damage being done.
While the likes of renowned liar and Andrew Breitbart pretends to be a friend of the little guy who he claims is being gouged by public workers such as those in Wisconsin and Ohio, the truth is that the efforts now being carried out are a culmination of the long-standing attacks against the whole concept of unions. Breitbart, Rush Limbaugh and the governors are mere mouthpieces for an oligarchy feeling its oats and viewing the current situation as another opportunity to weaken the resistance to their agenda. One word, one attitude should describe the progressive agenda at this critical moment. It's a word and attitude we've seen revived in the past few days after a long dormancy: Solidarity!

the main problem with all of this is that it groups all public employees together, so to actually have any bearing on this discussion you should only compare teachers.
Your info does not take into the fact that Wisconsin teachers only contribute 1% of their pensions, the taxpayers kicks in the other 99%. You numbers also do not take into consideration that Wisconsin Teachers only pay for 3-6% of the Medical Insurance Premiums, the taxpayer pays the other 90%+. Lets also not forget that Wisconsin teachers are only working fulltime for 3/4 of the year. That 2-3 month vacation every year sure is nice. So while your numbers may convince the less critical of thinkers it does not sway me. Divide that number by actual days worked and you will find that Wisconsin Teachers are the highest paid public employees in the State as a group. Wisconsin Teachers have one of the most lucrative benefits package of any state.

 

[NoDrama]

BTW If I handpick the Private jobs used in the data collection I can make teachers look like the poorest of the poor in comparison. The average salary in Wisconsin is $52,000 a year.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/55000.html
Teachers average $46,000 a year, plus $34,000 in Benefits funded by the Public for a Grand total of $80,000 for 9 months work, add in what they could make if they taught the whole year and that Number moves up to 95-100K in total compensation or about 90% more than the average Wisconsinite.

 

[jesus of Cannabis]

when is Favre coming back?

 

[UncleBuck]

BTW If I handpick the Private jobs used in the data collection I can make teachers look like the poorest of the poor in comparison. The average salary in Wisconsin is $52,000 a year.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/55000.html
Teachers average $46,000 a year, plus $34,000 in Benefits funded by the Public for a Grand total of $80,000 for 9 months work, add in what they could make if they taught the whole year and that Number moves up to 95-100K in total compensation or about 90% more than the average Wisconsinite.

the statistics presented to you were adjusted for factors such as education, experience, etc.

in other studies, when adjusted for education and experience, public sector employees make less than their private sector counterparts.

but nice attempt at inciting class warfare by attempting to demonize teachers as overpaid. and you righties always try to say that about us on the left...pathetic.

In a "rigorous analysis" of full-time state and local government workers in Ohio, EPI found that they are undercompensated by 6 percent. The analysts screened for variables including hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, experience, citizenship and disability.

 

[MrDank007]

yawn...sorry if you work for the public sector you should expect to make less than the private sector...comparing the two is apples and oranges. And you shouldn't expect to get rich at the tax payer's expense. How many private sector employees get life pensions after working for 20 years? It's unsustainable and proposterous. But fucking righties just hate poor working people. Sorry guys, the world is real and not everything can be a fairy tale for everyone. It's called a balance sheet. Money is tight and stomping your feet doesn't fix that.

And then there is the typical liberal argument ...we "gave" the money to someone else...we should take it and it will all balance out! You can take Walmart's money...I don't care, but the existing problem will continue to compound. Then it's let's take some more money and some more money...this bloodsucker mentality is killing the host and everyone is broke. Deal with it. You don't get the right to negotiate and bribe the system into a black hole.

The bottom line is that unions did a great job of bankrupting the auto industry...which is one thing because it is an industry, but commingling that with the tax payer burden is wrong. It's one more impractical cost that govs have to bear. It isn't working and these unions have too much power.

 

[NoDrama]

the statistics presented to you were adjusted for factors such as education, experience, etc.

in other studies, when adjusted for education and experience, public sector employees make less than their private sector counterparts.

but nice attempt at inciting class warfare by attempting to demonize teachers as overpaid. and you righties always try to say that about us on the left...pathetic.



[/B]

The Problem with doing it like that is you are giving even weighting to someone witha PhD vs someone with a high school education only. I would assume there are less People who have PhD's than are High School grads, wouldn't you?

For the record (Again) I am not a "Righty". I have Voted Democrat many times, locally and nationally because I vote for the person, not the party. I'm from the party of "Plumber Joe". I voted Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Perot,Bush ( regretfully),Kerry, Ron Paul (Write in)

 

[mastertow]

From the looks of things, if you are in America, this issue is coming to your state soon......

What a wonderful world we live in today.

 

[mastertow]

I don't know how many have actually read the bill. I have not finished the entire bill, it's 144 pages, but I am working on it.

There are other things which I think will incite the public when it becomes known.

Like this...
Currently, this state owns and operates numerous heating, cooling, and power
plants that were constructed by the state to provide heating, cooling, and power to
state facilities. The Department of Administration (DOA) determines the method of
operation of these plants and may delegate this authority to any other state agency
that has managing authority for a plant. This bill permits DOA to sell or contract
for the operation of any such plant. The bill exempts such sales and contracts from
the requirement for approval of the Public Service Commission (PSC) that may
otherwise apply under current law. The bill provides that the net proceeds of any
sale, after retirement of any outstanding state debt and any necessary repayment of
federal financial assistance, is deposited in the budget stabilization fund. The bill
also allows DOA, at any time, to petition the PSC to regulate as a public utility any
person who purchases or contracts for the operation of any plant under the bill.
Under current law, the PSC has regulatory authority over public utilities, including
the authority to set rates for utility service.

 

[tokingtiger]

WoW, vote is pretty even? so if the gov wants to come in like Nazi's and take peoples rights? your ok with this? AND YOU COME TO A POT SMOKING FORUM? im sorry, but you make me fuking sick.
We have no freaking rights left, if its something so huge, so important??? LET THE CITIZENS VOTE! rofl, yea, like that will happen. They say we are represented because we where allowed to vote for the lying crooks in office, but we dont get to vote on issues anymore? SAME THING IN CHINA, yes, it is. Just because we have 2 parties instead of one, we still closer to China than more any other country in gov. So you all want to be sucking fish heads working 80 hours a week to live in a small box? ROFL, no? oh, you see yourself as the top 2% that is being protected? then move to Egypt cuss your the king / queen of Denile.

 

[Johnnyorganic]

Usually when I see an idiotic post, I just let it pass knowing the folks at home will let it speak for itself. No response necessary. But this post is so idotic, and makes so many false and ludicris assumptions, it begs for a response.

WoW, vote is pretty even?

This is a divisive issue, it should come as no surprise to anyone that the results of the poll are even.

And the wording of the questions favors one side over the other by implying the unions represent the people while the Governor is against the people.

so if the gov wants to come in like Nazi's and take peoples rights?

Anyone paying attention can see that the union goons and outside agitators from other states had no problem whatsoever occupying the Capitol grounds. No stormtroopers showed up and beat up demonstrators. No jackbooted thugs dragged anyone off to prison for demonstrating.

No one's rights are being taken away.

your ok with this? AND YOU COME TO A POT SMOKING FORUM? im sorry, but you make me fuking sick.

This statement assumes that all cannabis users are Liberals. A stupid fucking stereotype. Cannabis users represent all points on the political spectrum.

We have no freaking rights left, if its something so huge, so important??? LET THE CITIZENS VOTE! rofl, yea, like that will happen. They say we are represented because we where allowed to vote for the lying crooks in office, but we dont get to vote on issues anymore?

Every registered voter had the right to vote on election day. See, that's how it works. The citizens send a representative to the capitol to govern.

SAME THING IN CHINA, yes, it is. Just because we have 2 parties instead of one, we still closer to China than more any other country in gov. So you all want to be sucking fish heads working 80 hours a week to live in a small box? ROFL, no? oh, you see yourself as the top 2% that is being protected? then move to Egypt cuss your the king / queen of Denile.

Not the same as China whatsoever. China gave us Tiannamen Square. That's how they respond to popular uprisings in a totalitarian system.

In Wisconsin, you have spoiled government employees calling in sick to go whine in public...

and they do so unmolested.

That's a big difference.

 

[NewGrowth]

how did you learn to compose a sentence?

a teacher at a public school, perhaps?

IRONY

Public education, AKA 'State Education' is an important part of communist/socialist society. It's time for parents to take responsibility for their childrens education. Why should we pay slacker unionized teachers that preach state doctorine and force kids into a box? Our education system is terrible! Even Russian school children have a higher literacy rate with 8 years of school rather than 12!
I for one don't buy it.
"Don't let your schooling get in the way of your education"
-Mark Twain
We forget that the greatest Americans were self made, they did not need a delusional state employee to "teach" them. Statistics show that the highest paid executive positions are usually held by people that were homeschooled. Fortune 500 companies seek these individuals in particular.
So yes Uncle Buck I am capable of run on sentences in Internet boards. I've also been self supporting for years, no union to cry to here . . .

 

[MrDank007]

Usually when I see an idiotic post, I just let it pass knowing the folks at home will let is speak for itself. No response necessary. But this post is so idotic, and makes so many false and ludicris assumptions, it begs for a response.


This is a divisive issue, it should come as no surprise to anyone that the results of the poll are even.

And the wording of the questions favors one side over the other by implying the unions represent the people while the Governor is against the people.


Anyone paying attention can see that the union goons and outside agitators from other states had no problem whatsoever occupying the Capitol grounds. No stormtroopers showed up and beat up demonstrators. No jackbooted thugs dragged anyone off to prison for demonstrating.

No one's rights are being taken away.


This statement assumes that all cannabis users are Liberals. A stupid fucking stereotype. Cannabis users represent all points on the political spectrum.


Every registered voter had the right to vote on election day. See, that's how it works. The citizens send a representative to the capitol to govern.


Not the same as China whatsoever. China gave us Tiannamen Square. That's how they respond to popular uprisings in a totalitarian system.

In Wisconsin, you have spoiled government employees calling in sick to go whine in public...

and they do so unmolested.

That's a big difference.

Careful though my friend...if you stand up to the unions, you may end up in a hole in the desert never to be found

 

[mindphuk]

Public education, AKA 'State Education' is an important part of communist/socialist society. It's time for parents to take responsibility for their childrens education. Why should we pay slacker unionized teachers that preach state doctorine and force kids into a box? Our education system is terrible! Even Russian school children have a higher literacy rate with 8 years of school rather than 12!
I for one don't buy it.
"Don't let your schooling get in the way of your education"
-Mark Twain
We forget that the greatest Americans were self made, they did not need a delusional state employee to "teach" them. Statistics show that the highest paid executive positions are usually held by people that were homeschooled. Fortune 500 companies seek these individuals in particular.
So yes Uncle Buck I am capable of run on sentences in Internet boards. I've also been self supporting for years, no union to cry to here . . .

The former DC Public School Chancellor, Michelle Rhee, revealed a study that "concluded the United States would rise to the top among nations in student achievement if the lowest performing 5 percent to 8 percent of teachers were replaced with those who are average." But instead, we are forced to keep lousy teachers in the system, all thanks to unions and their collective bargaining agreements with the government.

Rhee and was praised for elevating the quality of DC schools but now all of those fired teachers have to be hired back because of union pressure.

http://blog.heritage.org/2011/02/21/unions-at-it-again-d-c-being-made-to-hire-back-fired-teachers/#more-52971

 

[redivider]

Public education, AKA 'State Education' is an important part of communist/socialist society. It's time for parents to take responsibility for their childrens education. Why should we pay slacker unionized teachers that preach state doctorine and force kids into a box? Our education system is terrible! Even Russian school children have a higher literacy rate with 8 years of school rather than 12!
I for one don't buy it.
"Don't let your schooling get in the way of your education"
-Mark Twain
We forget that the greatest Americans were self made, they did not need a delusional state employee to "teach" them. Statistics show that the highest paid executive positions are usually held by people that were homeschooled. Fortune 500 companies seek these individuals in particular.
So yes Uncle Buck I am capable of run on sentences in Internet boards. I've also been self supporting for years, no union to cry to here . . .

you are mistaken. homeschooled children have better grades b/c the system isn't standardized. colleges look more carefully at homeschooled teens than any other variety b/c they know that homeschooling isn't always successful. psychologists agree that homeschooled children sometimes lack social skills and the self-confidence other individuals taught in a regular school have.

state-run schools are the benchmark of a SUCCESSFUL society. comunist, capitalist, whatever. find me a country. just one. please, in the top ten economies in the world for the last 20 years without a successful public school system...... you won't.

you'll be hard-pressed to find a teacher who does it b/c the money's excellent....

you are just hardlining in the name of philosophy but reality can have a pretty heavy hand when it slaps you in the face.....