Wisconsin Revolt
- Thread starter Carne Seca
- Start date
Carne Seca
Well-Known Member
Corporate greed is what killed the steel industry in America. After WWII, the U.S. was the only country in the allied countries that had complete, intact steel mills. So America went to work rebuilding Europe with our steel mills (Marshall Plan). Which led to incredible profits. Steel mills were manned 24-7 to meet Europe's demand for steel. In the meantime, Europe and Asia were building new steel mills with new technology. Technology that owners and CEO's of the U.S. steel mills ignored. The technology was a new type of blast furnace that the U.S. chose not to implement. This was during the time of incredible profits and the cost would have had a negligible impact on said profits. During this time was when the workers organized and formed the Unions.
Because of the stupidity and short-sightedness of the corporate greedy mentality, other countries such as Japan, Germany and Korea developed the new blast furnaces and produced steel much cheaper than the U.S.. So the demand for U.S. steel went down. Still the Steel Industry did nothing. They were trying to milk the profits for every cent they could get. The rest is history. It was a downward spiral to Hell.
BudMcLovin
Active Member
agreed. I think those unions supported the governor to some degree. fuckin politicians
BudMcLovin
Active Member
My bad. It was not my intention to blame the collapse of the American steel industry. They played their part but so did a lot of other factors. What you call short sightedness and greed, I’d call the lack of long term planning. Either way management didn’t do the job they were hired to do. Of course what I’d call overpriced labor cost, others would call good paying union jobs.
Let me clarify my statement from my previous post. No matter how strong a union is when an industry goes broke the jobs disappear. A company or a government can’t spend in the red forever eventually the creditor will want his money.
ink the world
Well-Known Member
Actually it does matter what people think. The governor had plenty of support when it came to making the union contribute more for their benefits and take a pay cut. He lost a lot of support when he stood firm on busting the union by stripping collective bargaining. He very clearly over stepped on that matter. Why does that matter?
It matters because the Republicans are making this a national policy and have very clearly miscalculated the support they would receive from the public. They arent getting it. In a strategic sense they arent winning the fight. They might win in Wisconsin, but will end up paying the price in 2012. This is such a polarizing issue and for now they seem to be on the wrong side of the argument, at least as far as most Americans are concerned.
There is a reason that national Republican outfits are buying up air time in Wisconsin, this IS a Republican national strategy. Wisconsin is just the test case for them.
I also disagree w/ you about the missing senators. To me they are doing their job, which is to represent their constituents. If the majority of voters DO NOT want this to pass (as every poll shows) then they are doing EXACTLY what their job is in blocking this laws passage.
I'll tell you why. Pure political miscalculation. Walker felt that the teachers were a "soft target" and is at least smart enough to not take cops and firefighters off the streets.
Look, we all know this isnt about budgets, its ideology in its purest form. They want to bust unions. If they are successful here and now, just wait; they'll start gunning for every union in the country.
londonfog
Well-Known Member
1. no my business is not unionized, but I did go out my way to assure that my employees have medical, dental,and life insurance...they also get vacation time and allotted sick pay...My money is always were my mouth is...and I feel its the very reason for any success I reach in life that and hard work and planning..I don't just talk the talk
2. yes my Grandfather worked at a unionized steel mill ( I still remember going to the picket line with him once long ago)...he retired received a pension that he paid into and worked hard to recieve...I'm sorry but I missed your point on that one ????Unions did not break up the Steel Business in America...you might want to do some research on that if you think so..
BudMcLovin
Active Member
Does Buck or I live in Wisconsin? I don’t and I’m guessing he doesn’t so it doesn’t matter what we think about the governor of that state.
Republicans may over reach before 2012 but I doubt public sector unions will be the reason. It will be stupid things like making miscarriages illegal. As long as our President keeps trying spending like a drunk monkey I think 2012 will be a cake walk for the republicans. What in 1980 it was 44 states hell it was 49 states in 84. Obama is showing the American people exactly what they don’t want a ruler instead of a President.
How can you do your job when you don’t show up? Are they still getting paid by the state? That should be docked until they show back up for work. They ran away because they did not like the changes being proposed. Instead of staying a fighting a according to the laws of the land they run and hide. That’s a first class pussy. If the roles were reversed would you say the same? I’m guessing the 14 senators are on the union pay roll the way they are acting.
What makes it a “union buster”. It doesn’t make unions illegal. It doesn’t prevent state employees from being a member of a union. Is it the fact that members will be responsible for sending their dues to the union instead of an automatic deduction? If only the federal government would do that with our taxes. Is it the fact they can’t bargain over benefits? So what’s the problem with that? I’ve never worked at a place that let me tell them what benefits package they were going to offer. I’d bet most if not all the private nonunion sector is that way.
BudMcLovin
Active Member
1. You’re not unionized. Why not? Why you’re just another greedy capitalist pig. Do your employees get least 4 weeks paid vacation and/or 2 vacation days and 1 sick day a month? Will your employees get 90% of their income for the rest of their lives after 20 years on the job? It’s great that you treat your employees with respect but if you own a business and you’re not unionized don’t talk about how great they are. If you really do own a business then you already know unions drive up labor cost and that can be death of any business.
2. See post 446
MrDank007
Well-Known Member
The rub is collective bargaining. Without it, unions purpose for existing is greatly diminished. With it, well we have seen how that has been overstepped beyond what is sustainable for a budget. The blame really lies with society and the voter for being unaware of runaway politicians, not doing due diligence and demanding transparency. If unions could represent their workers, and the people cutting the checks could say "look we are going to work with you, but this is all we can do that is pratical, they would be able to reach an equilibrium whereby the worker is taken care of and system can function, but this has not happened on any level.
Systems aren't perfect and ripe for abuse. If you let the fox guard the henhouse, trouble is inevitable. People get all worked up in choosing an ideological side, but the reality is that system can only bear so much and if anyone is getting results that are out of bounds... someone else suffers. The argument here is which is the greater evil...giving teachers less or busting the system for everyone paying into it. Unions have done too good of a job at the negotiating table as evidenced by broken industries and local governments. This is one more reality check for those picking up the tab.
The inherent conflict is that up to this point those with demands have had more power and influence than those balancing the budget and cutting the checks and that can not work and it particularly obscene in the public sector. America's demise will be it's inabilty to say no to anyone who whines even with bankruptcy looming.
Unfortunately, unions are coming off as saying...we will give concessions, but want to reserve the right to gouge you later. And unfortunately, the push back is coming off as we can't work with you, so we are done as we are out of money for you. If we ever do get this fixed we are not repeating the mistake. It doesn't help matters that this side pushing back tends to be more alligned with corporate interests in terms of ideology, but the end result would be the same regardless. It's really just an ad hominem emotional appeal and an excuse to be angry with the opposition.
From an ideologcial and self sustaining stand point, it is impossible for either side to fully go in reverse. The bottom line is that if unions are going to be allowed to exist, they need to be regulated and limited in how far their reach is. Rules need to be in place stating what governments can conceed and how business is to be done. Politicians need to be held accountable. The current way of doing things has reached a breaking point and is over. Sorry if that doesn't jive with what you believe, but we are past the point of change being needed and to the point of of it being required. The mantra of the road goes on forever and the party never ends is hard to face, but liberals need to realize you can't make everyone happy all the time and you have to work with what you got. You got what you wanted, now realize it didn't work and can't work.
Systems aren't perfect and ripe for abuse. If you let the fox guard the henhouse, trouble is inevitable. People get all worked up in choosing an ideological side, but the reality is that system can only bear so much and if anyone is getting results that are out of bounds... someone else suffers. The argument here is which is the greater evil...giving teachers less or busting the system for everyone paying into it. Unions have done too good of a job at the negotiating table as evidenced by broken industries and local governments. This is one more reality check for those picking up the tab.
The inherent conflict is that up to this point those with demands have had more power and influence than those balancing the budget and cutting the checks and that can not work and it particularly obscene in the public sector. America's demise will be it's inabilty to say no to anyone who whines even with bankruptcy looming.
Unfortunately, unions are coming off as saying...we will give concessions, but want to reserve the right to gouge you later. And unfortunately, the push back is coming off as we can't work with you, so we are done as we are out of money for you. If we ever do get this fixed we are not repeating the mistake. It doesn't help matters that this side pushing back tends to be more alligned with corporate interests in terms of ideology, but the end result would be the same regardless. It's really just an ad hominem emotional appeal and an excuse to be angry with the opposition.
From an ideologcial and self sustaining stand point, it is impossible for either side to fully go in reverse. The bottom line is that if unions are going to be allowed to exist, they need to be regulated and limited in how far their reach is. Rules need to be in place stating what governments can conceed and how business is to be done. Politicians need to be held accountable. The current way of doing things has reached a breaking point and is over. Sorry if that doesn't jive with what you believe, but we are past the point of change being needed and to the point of of it being required. The mantra of the road goes on forever and the party never ends is hard to face, but liberals need to realize you can't make everyone happy all the time and you have to work with what you got. You got what you wanted, now realize it didn't work and can't work.
ink the world
Well-Known Member
What makes it a union buster is the neutering of the union by taking their collective bargaining right away.....Your tone clarifies your logic and motivations. You sir are jealous. You dont have what they have and that bothers you. ...... "Those damned elitist teachers and janitors getting more than me!!"Does Buck or I live in Wisconsin? I don’t and I’m guessing he doesn’t so it doesn’t matter what we think about the governor of that state.
. If it doesnt matter then why are we all here talking and debating the issue? It clearly matters, if it didnt we wouldnt be here posting away.
Republicans may over reach before 2012 but I doubt public sector unions will be the reason. It will be stupid things like making miscarriages illegal.
I agree partially. This is one of the reasons, not the main one. While they talk of spending cuts they have yet to make any significant cut. If they cut 100% of the domestic discretionary spending it still would be a drop in the bucket. Until they cut defense, corporate subsidies and entitlements this is all bullshit to me.
As long as our President keeps trying spending like a drunk monkey I think 2012 will be a cake walk for the republicans. What in 1980 it was 44 states hell it was 49 states in 84. Obama is showing the American people exactly what they don’t want a ruler instead of a President.
2012 SHOULD be a cakewalk for the Republicans, they are making it harder than they need to. Just like they did in the 90's they are making this some kind of conservative social war.
Attacking teacher unions, abortion rights, NPR, PBS, cutting early childhood education isnt the answer, and isnt what most people want. In fact, there was a poll yesterday that said most people would rather pay higher taxes than have services cut.
How can you do your job when you don’t show up? Are they still getting paid by the state? That should be docked until they show back up for work. They ran away because they did not like the changes being proposed. Instead of staying a fighting a according to the laws of the land they run and hide. That’s a first class pussy. If the roles were reversed would you say the same? I’m guessing the 14 senators are on the union pay roll the way they are acting.
Like I said before they are there to represent their constituents. Their constituents want this bill blocked, hence they are doing their job.And like you said earlier "you dont live in Wisconsin, so its not your $ or your representative; why do you care?
And if ANYONE in the situation is on someones "payroll" it has to be the Governor on Koch's payroll.
What makes it a “union buster”. It doesn’t make unions illegal. It doesn’t prevent state employees from being a member of a union. Is it the fact that members will be responsible for sending their dues to the union instead of an automatic deduction? If only the federal government would do that with our taxes. Is it the fact they can’t bargain over benefits? So what’s the problem with that? I’ve never worked at a place that let me tell them what benefits package they were going to offer. I’d bet most if not all the private nonunion sector is that way.
Its not their fault that you cant negotiate with your employer. It also isnt their fault they get what they get. Their pay and benefits are NEGOTIATED, someone had to agree to their terms.
londonfog
Well-Known Member
you either young or stupid...not even the military gives you 4 weeks a year vacation (try two ) and do tell what union job gives you 90% of your pay when you retire after 20 years of service...last time I check the military was the quickest route to retirement with a decent base pay with only 20 years...stop talking out the side of your neck makes you look
....and when you care to use numbers make sure you use factual info...it avoids you having to correct yourself on the stupidity you quickly write down without checking... I said you either young or stupid but you can choose both.
Mike Young
Well-Known Member
If I have to hear one more person say that the way to bring this country out of debt is to cut salaries & benefits of working class people, I think I'm gonna throw up. All of this while extending the bush tax cuts for the 2% (700,000,000,000 over 10 years), corporate tax loopholes that exempt big business from paying jack & shit. It's disgusting!
The economy is in the shitter at the hands of rich men in $5k suits, who know one thing and one thing alone. GREED! And how are they punished when it collapsed? Bailouts at the hands of taxpayers, to which they hand out rediculous bonuses to their top performers. As well as a new administration re-appointing these dicks to their positions of power.
At least african americans knew when they were slaves.
The economy is in the shitter at the hands of rich men in $5k suits, who know one thing and one thing alone. GREED! And how are they punished when it collapsed? Bailouts at the hands of taxpayers, to which they hand out rediculous bonuses to their top performers. As well as a new administration re-appointing these dicks to their positions of power.
At least african americans knew when they were slaves.
MrDank007
Well-Known Member
Yeah we bailed out the auto industry as well. It's not that your points are completely invalid, but the 2 wrongs make a right mentality is a poor arguement. Both issues need to be addressed and both are separate. The liberals seem to think the current way of doing things is fine, but they have run out of wiggle room. They can create another inch through their methods, but eventually that gap will close as well. If a ship is sinking, you don't throw more money into it to bail out more water...you patch the hole.
The process needs...wait for it...CHANGE
The process needs...wait for it...CHANGE
Mike Young
Well-Known Member
How are corporate tax loopholes not related to bringing back the economy? Saying these issues can't be talked about in the same argument, is insane. An easy way to get it back to the topic of screwing working class citizens. Cause when you suggest the screwing of anybody else, that's just class warfare now, and not acceptable. I don't even know why I waste my time. People have been programmed to believe that what they see on fox news is true. Syntax error! Wake the fuck up!
Mike Young
Well-Known Member
The world has operated under this monetary structure since the beginning of time (figuratively) and has always made a wealthy few off the backs of the poor. America is probably the worst of them all. People like to equate the word freedom with democracy. I think quite the opposite. I equate democracy with slavery. I agree that change is in order. But it won't come at the hand of republicans or democrats. Not as long as this polarization of the people is taking place. The best interests of people and planet have never been represented in the history of civilization. I think it's about time something gets done about that.
MrDank007
Well-Known Member
What is true for some is definitely not true for all. How many buisnesses are out of buisness....we are in a recession. Statements like this are mindless beating of the drum. But by all means close a loophole...do it...you won't hear a peep out of me. Attempting to balance a budget with this mentality is ludicrous though. Your solution is to avoid the actual problem and throw more magic at it. Can you honestly say this is a way the system will ever quit bleeding red or is it just wishfull thinking?
i said CORPORTATIONS. AS IN PUBLICLY TRADED ENTITIES. as in BIG MONEY. business does not equal corporations....
businesses have MULTIPLE ways to operate within the law:
self-proprietorship
co-op
non-profit
limited liability corporation
limited liability partnership
traditional partnership
joint-ventures
privately owned company
publicly traded company
just to get you started.