BioCanna frustrated.... :(

[NightbirdX]

So after doing my research and branching away from my associates, I decided to try out the BioCanna line of nutrients in pursuit of my goal to produce as organic/veganic as I can.

Long story short after many problems, some of which I am still enduring....dotdotdot, I see a new BioCanna feeding schedule (at least new to me, if I am behind on the learning curve.) The one that I was given when I purchased the line had the following on the feeding schedule:

BioVega, Cannazym, and Rhizotonic for the Veg and BioFlores, BioBoost, Cannazym, and Rhizotonic for the Bloom. I have been seeing several different schedules (which is starting to anger me... ) Today I see the newest one and it does not include Cannazym or Rhizotonic. Then I see another one that includes BioRhizotonic, which I had never heard of.

SO! I guess my question is, should I be using Cannazym or Rhizotonic at all. Does using either of those make my grow "not so organic?"

I was already thinking of switching from Cannazym to Hygrozyme since from what I heard, Hygrozyme is a bit better, is OMRI, and is cheaper.

Should I look into getting the BioRhizotonic? I haven't even seen it out here yet anywhere and will probably need to order it online. Any advice or suggestions? Any suggestions as to where I should get it online if I need it?

And I recently started using a foliar spray of Nitrozyme 1 tsp per 32oz to start to see how my plants react. Should I be adding some to the nutes also?

Lastly, my plants that I just put into flowering have had a hard time do to some mix ups and wrong info in the beginning of my grow. I feel like I have been recovering the whole time trying to catch up. Could my problems be based off of the use of Cannazym or Rhizotonic with the BioCanna line? I'm just trying to iron some things out as I started my second set in veg and am looking to avoid the problems I had with the first set.

Thanks for the help and advice! Slanche!

 

[Severdali]

does it make it "not organic?"

yes it does, but not a very large percentage. the rhizo and cannazym shouldnt be harming your microbes, but could be screwing with your formula bigtime. Flush and use bio rhizo to be sure, or you could try to use rhizo at WAY less strength than directed, like a third to a fifth of it, then if that doesnt work just concentrate on getting the girls healthy. No matter what you do , no reason to use as much rhizo as canna says, ever. if its the bio line and bio soil and you havent mass underfed it youve prob overfed it or PH is off

 

[NightbirdX]

I'll try to lay it out without going on and on.

First I decided to go with the Canna line and went and picked up the BioCanna line with Rhizotonic and Cannazym. I was using Canna Coco, (trying to stay in the Canna line and BTP is not available around me, and the Grow Shop guy said that it would work.) I had major yellowing and problems and found out after contacting Canna that I can't use those 2 in conjunction and should use a peat based fertilized soil, so I went with Happy Frog Organic soil.

I retransplanted my plants into 5 gallon pots of Happy Frog and added water. Well after a week in the new soil I added 4 ml of BioVega, 4ml of Rhizotonic. I then upped the dosage of BioVega to 8ml in week 2 and had nutrient burn pretty bad, so I went back to just using Water, 4ml of Cannazym, and 9 ml of Rhizotonic as the recommended dosage. I did that for 2 more weeks and the plants were big enough to put into Flowering and I had some others that were backing up behind it, so I transplanted them into 10 gallon pots and gave them a couple days to recouperate and then put them into flowering. Thinking that I had leeched the nutrients out of the soil well enough, I gave another nutrient dose of 4ml of BioVega, 4ml of Cannazym, and 9ml of Rhizotonic. And sure enough I come back the next day and the plants were nute burned again. So I am really not that sure what to do at this point.

If you are telling me that Cannazym and Rhizotonic aren't supposed to technically be used with the BioCanna line, I won't use them anymore. I am almost out of them anyways. Would you recommend switching the Cannazym for Hygrozyme as an OMRI certified replacement? And I guess I'll have to find a line on the BioRhizotonic. I literally only heard of it about an hour ago, lol. And having been to SGS 2 days ago, I can assure you that it is not there yet. I'm just trying to get some clarification as to what is going on and what I should be using.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[Chronicular]

i dont know if this will help BUT. I would keep using those nutes just REALLY low dosages. Keep using what youve got that shit aint cheap lol. Sounds to me like youve over ferted it/them? as in feeding them way to regularly. At the moment im using Canna Flores, Rhizotonic, and Cannazym in my mix for bloom stage. Shit is going crazy good im amazed! Jsut halve the dosage that canna suggest, im sure you cant go wrong. If in doubt just flush flush flush and start your feeding schedule all over again. Voila!

 

[NightbirdX]

Awesome Chronicular thank you! I appreciate the advice! The hard part is that the Canna line offers a broad spectrum of dosage some are 4-8ml and others are 4-16. It just gets confusig sometimes

 

[Snow Crash]

These nutrients are all of a fairly low strength and are no better than something you could make yourself at home.

As to the organic qualities of Cannazym and Rhizotonic I am not sure if they violate any rules. I do know that the Cannazym is a 0-2-1 nutrient and is important to boost the phosphate levels from the 3rd week of flowering through the 6th week, with a good boost somewhere in there. The BioBoost is very weak, as is the Rhizotonic, and using up to 15ml per gallon of each won't skew the nutrient levels enough to really cause problems.

The main system, Vega and Flores, are really what you need to be watching it on. There is an absolute ass load of potassium in both of those systems, and the amount of calcium and magnesium are a bit unknown. I did a little work on the nutrient values and it would appear that 10ml Vega with 10ml Rhizotonic is just fine, less than 500ppm depending on your starting level. During flowering the Flores at 10ml, with Cannazym at 10ml, and Rhizotonic at 5ml, and BioBoost as high as 15ml per gallon... Still under 500ppm.

As long as you get a good amount of run off, incorporate occasional waterings, and the soil mix isn't too hot to begin with then there shouldn't be too many nutrient issues with the system. If anything I think it could be a little micro deficient but that is easy to solve with some Dolomite lime mixed in the soil.

If I wanted to stick to Organic and be very "uptight" about it then I'd make sure everything I grew with was OMRI certified, or whatever Canadian certification there is too. I think that brewing your own organic tea, having a proprietary blend and really understanding plant nutrition is what will wind up being the best system over the long haul. Less expensive and you know it is organic because you made it yourself. Mix a good soil to start with and you shouldn't need to feed more than 5 or 6 times over the course of an entire grow. Just a lot of water will do the trick.

A supplement for your BioCanna could be Organicare Huvega and Humega. The Magnesium centric micro supplement and Humic Acid combination might also help resolve late bloom Mg uptake issues as the PK boost kicks in.

 

[NightbirdX]

I must have hot soil or something. I a made a 1:1 Happy Frog/Pro-Mix soil blend for my youngest plants in Veg and it is working great. They are growing vigorously and taking the normal nutrient regimen happily.

My other plants in flowering continue to have problems with nutrient burn whenever I feed them. I just gave them a half dosage in a feeding last night and there are signs of burn again. I used 2ml of BioVega and 4ml of Cannazym per gallon of water.

I plan on brewing my own teas and such, I just need to do more research on what I need to add to it. I plan on using some Organic/Veganic Peppermint Compost for some N and microbes, some FF organic soil for more microbes and Mycorhizzae, not sure what I am lacking and what else I need to add to the mix. Should I feed once a week and use a tea once a week or should a tea application be done every couple of weeks? I would like to eventually make my own soil and such, but I am just not there yet.

In supplementing the Huvega and Humega, should I be using at the same time as my BioCanna line? Should this be used full time or just in Veg or Bloom?

 

[Snow Crash]

I had some really severe burn issues with Huvega and Humega a short time ago. The huvega alone really raises the EC. And they suggest using up to 30ml of the stuff. When you read the label it is only 1% magnesium and there is actually more sodium in the mixture than anything else. I think it is this sodium that raises the EC and really fraks the system.

I've discontinued my use of the product. In place I have been using Humboldt Nutrients SeaMag. Every other magnesium supplement on the market is usually combined with carbo's and used as a bloom enhancer like Botanicare Sweet, or Advanced Nutrients Bud Candy. When you break those down the magnesium is coming from Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) so you may as well save your money and just get some of the salts for yourself. You also need to be aware that there is more sulfate in the salt than magnesium and that an imbalance of sulfate could upset the uptake of both nitrates and phosphates.

The SeaMag is at least sourced from ocean clay deposits high in magnesium. You get 1.5% instead of 1%, but you will also need to learn how to manage the NPK boost of 1-3-4 in with your nutrient regiments.

As I've been dialing things in I find that having several sources for magnesium is good. Use a macro system with some mag, and then supplement with a mag specific booster, then use a carbo-mag booster as well. The three sources of magnesium implemented during the 3rd to 7th weeks of bloom will probably secure a good buffer of that element for the plant to have access to.

I've done the same thing you are doing now with the Huvega. Plants look like they need Magnesium, bottle says it is safe to use up to 30ml per gallon, so you keep it running. That shit will burn your plants to death. Take it from someone who knows. Flush those babies for sure as the Huvega has probably deposited too much sodium in the media.

Burning them for this long is going to have a really negative effect on the yield so just get this grow over with and start fresh.

Good luck.

 

[NightbirdX]

Ya thats what I am trying to do. I will never use an uncut soil mix again. Trying to get through this set and the next set is looking much better.

 

[Severdali]

If in doubt just flush flush flush and start your feeding schedule all over again. Voila! "


-this is probably the key yov need.

 

[NightbirdX]

I did on my plants in flowering. They are taking low level nutrients well. I'm just letting them do their thing and they seem happy. At least happier than they were, lol. My plants in veg are blowing up well. I can't wait to send them into flowering. Another 2 weeks and I will be sending my 2 Apollo's and 2 Free Leonard's into flowering. Its gonna be a blood bath, lol.

 

[Matt Rize]

Oh man just read through this. Don't know how I missed it. GREAT advice here already. You were using WAY too much nutrients. I think I read you doubled your vega in one feeding. No Bueno.

I'll just re-iterate. It Bioboost and Rhizo can't really burn ya, they are super low in EC. The Cannazym on the other hand is basically a chem nutrient 0-2-1, with some enzyme action in there. I'm using it, but topping out at half strength, that's after slowly working up from none during veg. The Rhizo is... not sold on it. These rooting tonics in general seem like a rip off. The BioRhizo is overseas, I asked my local store to get it, not sure if they can.

You guys were talking about the Huvega and Humega. I've been using the Huvega too, and am attempting to switch back to epsom salts instead. For foliar I am using Ful-Power from www.bioag.com
The Humega is crap compared to the high quality humic from Dr. Faust at BioAg. I use a little humic/fulvic with every feeding. And I don't use anything at the strength it says on the label. Even from Bioag. I go about half strength tops.

 

[Snow Crash]

For the record, I would not recommend SeaMag to anyone. I found that every time I applied it the growth of my plants literally STOPPED. It'd take 2 or 3 days before growth would continue again. This was a huge issue for me during weeks 4 and 5 of flowering when the plants should have be kicking ass. Instead, they stalled out.

If you're looking for something to halt growth to keep Vegging plants from getting too tall then SeaMag is for you. If you're not in need of a growth inhibitor posing as a 1-3-4 +magnesium nutrient supplement then save your money!

I'm not saying it keeps nodes close, or keeps the plant short. I'm saying that it outright stops growth. I didn't like it.

 

[NightbirdX]

Oh man just read through this. Don't know how I missed it. GREAT advice here already. You were using WAY too much nutrients. I think I read you doubled your vega in one feeding. No Bueno.

I'll just re-iterate. It Bioboost and Rhizo can't really burn ya, they are super low in EC. The Cannazym on the other hand is basically a chem nutrient 0-2-1, with some enzyme action in there. I'm using it, but topping out at half strength, that's after slowly working up from none during veg. The Rhizo is... not sold on it. These rooting tonics in general seem like a rip off. The BioRhizo is overseas, I asked my local store to get it, not sure if they can.

Ya I figured that out the hard way, lol. I currently am using 8ml Flores, 5ml BioBoost, 5ml, Cannazyme, 5ml Rhizotonic. My plants are riding the brink of having too much nutes and perfect nutes, so I left the dosages there and add more water if I see they are getting too bad. I basically got my feeding schedule to the point where the tips start to yellow and I have some spots showing on minimal leaves. My first batch is finishing up with 1-4 weeks until the plants are done. They look great and are really frosty and smell incredible, but my yield isn't going to be great, which I was expecting because of all the problems I had in the beginning.

So you are saying that I can up the dosages of Rhizo and BioBoost and be okay? I'm all for upping nutrient dosages. I just really found no info on the BioCanna line, and no one I knew used it, so I had to experiment and research until I got it going nicely. Many lessons learned from round 1, many more questions going into round 2, lol. My second batch of plants are looking great though also. Much better and bigger than my first batch. Still learning and tweaking.

I asked my grow shop about BioRhizo and apparently they are working on getting it shipped to the US at the moment, but it still has some issue that they won't let pass and let it into the US.

 

[Wolverine97]

I'll try to lay it out without going on and on.

First I decided to go with the Canna line and went and picked up the BioCanna line with Rhizotonic and Cannazym. I was using Canna Coco, (trying to stay in the Canna line and BTP is not available around me, and the Grow Shop guy said that it would work.) I had major yellowing and problems and found out after contacting Canna that I can't use those 2 in conjunction and should use a peat based fertilized soil, so I went with Happy Frog Organic soil.


I retransplanted my plants into 5 gallon pots of Happy Frog and added water. Well after a week in the new soil I added 4 ml of BioVega, 4ml of Rhizotonic. I then upped the dosage of BioVega to 8ml in week 2 and had nutrient burn pretty bad, so I went back to just using Water, 4ml of Cannazym, and 9 ml of Rhizotonic as the recommended dosage. I did that for 2 more weeks and the plants were big enough to put into Flowering and I had some others that were backing up behind it, so I transplanted them into 10 gallon pots and gave them a couple days to recouperate and then put them into flowering. Thinking that I had leeched the nutrients out of the soil well enough, I gave another nutrient dose of 4ml of BioVega, 4ml of Cannazym, and 9ml of Rhizotonic. And sure enough I come back the next day and the plants were nute burned again. So I am really not that sure what to do at this point.

If you are telling me that Cannazym and Rhizotonic aren't supposed to technically be used with the BioCanna line, I won't use them anymore. I am almost out of them anyways. Would you recommend switching the Cannazym for Hygrozyme as an OMRI certified replacement? And I guess I'll have to find a line on the BioRhizotonic. I literally only heard of it about an hour ago, lol. And having been to SGS 2 days ago, I can assure you that it is not there yet. I'm just trying to get some clarification as to what is going on and what I should be using.

Thanks for the reply.

Nightbird: I'm going to respectfully disagree with what most everyone has said so far. Your levels are high, but there's no reason you can't use Rhizo and Cannazyme with their bio line other than you're technically not 100% organic at that point. I think your problem is that you're using a soil nutrient in coco without making necessary adjustments. When using coco you have to supplement calmag, you just have to because it binds up Mg. It contains high levels of potassium naturally. Canna has a line of nutrients made for coco, and you use the same base nutrient all the way through both veg and bloom. I think you've just got your ratio's out of whack, but not because of the products in question. Canna is known for needing calmag supplementation.

My .02

 

[Snow Crash]

Nightbird: I'm going to respectfully disagree with what most everyone has said so far.... I think your problem is that you're using a soil nutrient in coco without making necessary adjustments. When using coco you have to supplement calmag, you just have to because it binds up Mg. It contains high levels of potassium naturally.

There is an absolute ass load of potassium in both of those systems, and the amount of calcium and magnesium are a bit unknown.

As per usual Wolverine97 and I are on EXACTLY the same page.

 

[Wolverine97]

Great minds and all that...

 

[NightbirdX]

Nightbird: I'm going to respectfully disagree with what most everyone has said so far. Your levels are high, but there's no reason you can't use Rhizo and Cannazyme with their bio line other than you're technically not 100% organic at that point. I think your problem is that you're using a soil nutrient in coco without making necessary adjustments. When using coco you have to supplement calmag, you just have to because it binds up Mg. It contains high levels of potassium naturally. Canna has a line of nutrients made for coco, and you use the same base nutrient all the way through both veg and bloom. I think you've just got your ratio's out of whack, but not because of the products in question. Canna is known for needing calmag supplementation.

My .02

Hey man. I appreciate the reply. I ended up switching from Coco to Happy Frog, after I emailed the "pros" at Canna and then ended up amending it with Pro-Mix because Happy Frog was too hot to accept nutrients without burning the plants. I will probably be doing 100% Pro-Mix Orange from now on or I may put some Organic Soil in the mix and use some teas to add to the microbial life.

Would you say that I should be adding some organic Cal/Mag in conjunction with the Bio line and Organic soil?

 

[Wolverine97]

Hey man. I appreciate the reply. I ended up switching from Coco to Happy Frog, after I emailed the "pros" at Canna and then ended up amending it with Pro-Mix because Happy Frog was too hot to accept nutrients without burning the plants. I will probably be doing 100% Pro-Mix Orange from now on or I may put some Organic Soil in the mix and use some teas to add to the microbial life.

Would you say that I should be adding some organic Cal/Mag in conjunction with the Bio line and Organic soil?

Absolutely, it's vitally important when using Canna products (any of their lines). Instead of their boost though, I'd give a good look to General Organics Bio Bud. I suspect it's a very similar product, for about a third of the price. I use it, and love it, it performs the same function as Boost, but I'm not sure if the ingredients are the same.

 

[NightbirdX]

Absolutely, it's vitally important when using Canna products (any of their lines). Instead of their boost though, I'd give a good look to General Organics Bio Bud. I suspect it's a very similar product, for about a third of the price. I use it, and love it, it performs the same function as Boost, but I'm not sure if the ingredients are the same.

Alright man, thanks a lot for the info. I'll look into finding an Organic Cal/Mag that works. I was looking at the GO Bio Bud. I'm all for using a similar product and saving some money. What is your opinion on switching the Cannazym for Hygrozyme?