The Ruiner
Well-Known Member
I dont want to insult anyone (I never mean to, I am just a natural bastard sometimes)...
Is the End Near? For fossil fuels?
- Thread starter Ernst
- Start date
canndo
Well-Known Member
A 157? I don't even know to what you are refering. Yes, cause when it was 40 bucks the technology was the same, which happens to b emy point. Your solution is to leave it to fate and luck. That, to me, is hardly a smart way to manage.
How would you have dealt with sugar and gas rationing in the 40's?
The Ruiner
Well-Known Member
Man, I googled "157" and came up with some wide-ranging results...
Carpenters Union, FASB codification standards, military (specifically naval) vessels, non-immmigrant visa applications...
It could be anything...
Carpenters Union, FASB codification standards, military (specifically naval) vessels, non-immmigrant visa applications...
It could be anything...
canndo
Well-Known Member
In short "someone ELSE will save us from ourselves at the last minute" - that is what you are contending. The problem is that the end is in sight NOW, today, this very instant. As someone who has been working in the alternative fuels industry for well over a decade, I don't think you can actually call me someone who doesn't think "outside the box" BTW, no one was predicting doom and gloom with regard to oil until Hubert's first predictions came true.
funny in 1974-1976 or so we waited in line on Saturday to get gas, and you could only get a certain amount, so this oil about to run out has been going out for a while. Yeah, yeah we all gonna die from no oil...
Maybe just maybe you are working on the wrong thing if you ain't got it worked out by now and it doesn't look like any solar or wind will be able to supply much of the grid at all lets try to find something else.
canndo
Well-Known Member
As I said, Hubert predicted peak oil in the U.S. being in the early to mid 70's, at the time OPEC decided to use its exports as a weapon. They may do it again, but more likely they will not be able to compensate for a global shortfall - or won't. The point is that what you describe was actually due to a genuine shortage of oil - in the U.S.
Peaked in the 70's as predicted, and lead to imports as I stated.
U.S. predictions outside of OPEC (which is hard to predict) and the former USSR.
Here is Hubbert's estimate in 1956 over reality in The USSR
Here is his global prediction - pretty close.
The Marcellus was the Opening Act
A rock layer below the Marcellus Shale could prove to be another incredible source of natural gas.
The Marcellus Shale captured public attention when leasing and drilling activities began pumping billions of dollars into local economies and citizens began debating the environmental, social and economic impacts. All of this began suddenly in 2004 when Range Resources Corporation drilled the first Marcellus well using modern drilling technology.
Now, just a few years later, the Marcellus Shale is being developed into one of the world's largest natural gas fields. However, what we are seeing today from the Marcellus is only the first step in a sequence of natural gas plays. The second step is starting in the Utica Shale.
What is the Utica Shale?
The Utica Shale is a rock unit located a few thousand feet below the Marcellus Shale. It also has the potential to become an enormous natural gas resource. The Utica Shale is thicker than the Marcellus, it is more geographically extensive and it has already proven its ability to support commercial production.
It is impossible to say at this time how large the Utica Shale resource might be because it has not been thoroughly evaluated and little public information is available about its organic content, the thickness of organic-rich intervals and how it will respond to horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing. However, the results of early testing indicate that the Utica Shale will be a very significant resource.
Where is the Utica Shale?
The potential source rock portion of the Utica Shale is extensive. In the United States it underlies portions of Kentucky, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, West Virginia and Virginia. It is also present beneath parts of Lake Ontario, Lake Erie and part of Ontario, Canada. This geographic extent of potential Utica Shale source rock is shown on the map labeled as Figure 1 in the right column of this page. If the Utica is commercial throughout this extent it will be geographically larger than any natural gas field known today.
How Deep is the Utica Shale?
Learn About
Mineral Rights The Utica Shale is much deeper than the Marcellus. The Utica Shale elevation map shown as Figure 2 in the right column of this page has contour lines that show the elevation of the base of the Utica Shale in feet below sea level. In some parts of Pennsylvania the Utica Shale can be over two miles below sea level. However, the depth of the Utica Shale decreases to the west into Ohio and to the northwest under the Great Lakes and into Canada. In these areas the Utica Shale rises to less than 2000 feet below sea level. Beyond the potential source rock areas the Utica Shale rises to Earth's surface and can be seen in outcrop. An outcrop photo of the Utica Shale near the town of Donnaconna, Quebec, Canada is show in the right column of this page as Figure 3.
Most of the major rock units in the Appalachian Basin are thickest in the east and thin towards the west. The rock units that occur between the Marcellus Shale and the Utica Shale follow this trend. In central Pennsylvania, the Utica can be up to 7000 feet below the Marcellus Shale but that depth difference decreases to the west. In eastern Ohio the Utica can be less than 3000 feet below the Marcellus.
These depth relationships of the Utica Shale and the Marcellus Shale are shown in the generalized cross sections shown below as Figure 4a and Figure 4b.
Figure 4a: The cross-section above shows the subsurface position of the Marcellus Shale, Utica Shale and the continental basement rock. The line of cross section is shown as line A-B on the inset map. Note that the Utica Shale is about 2000 feet below the Marcellus under eastern Ohio but about 6000 feet below the Marcellus in southcentral Pennsylvania. Also note that the Marcellus Shale potential source rock does not extend as far into Ohio as the Utica.
This cross-section was compiled by Geology.com using data provided by the Energy Information Administration [1], the United States Geological Survey [2], the Pennsylvania Geological Survey [3], and the U.S. Department of Energy [4].
Figure 4b: The cross-section above shows the subsurface position of the Marcellus Shale, Utica Shale and the continental basement rock. The line of cross section is shown as line A-B on the inset map. Note that the Utica Shale is about 1800 feet below the Marcellus under western New York but about 5000 feet below the Marcellus in southcentral Pennsylvania. Also note that the Marcellus Shale potential source rock does not extend as far into New York as the Utica.
This cross-section was compiled by Geology.com using data provided by the Energy Information Administration [1], the United States Geological Survey [2], the Pennsylvania Geological Survey [3], and the U.S. Department of Energy [4].
Current Development of the Utica Shale Gas Play
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In early 2011, most of the mineral rights leasing and drilling activity tied directly to the Utica Shale was in eastern Ohio and Ontario, Canada. In these areas the Utica Shale is less than 4000 feet below the surface and the Marcellus Shale is not present. (If the Marcellus is present it becomes the target because it is shallower, less expensive to drill and has a proven potential.)
The generalized cross-section for the Utica and Marcellus Shale shown above as Figure 4 illustrates why the Utica is being developed in some parts of the Ohio and Canada instead of the Marcellus.
Where Cross-Section 4a traverses the Pennsylvania-Ohio state boundary the Marcellus Shale is above the Utica and would be preferentially drilled because it is a shallower target. However, the productive portion of the Marcellus Shale does not extend into central Ohio - but the Utica Shale does. In those areas the Utica Shale is less than one mile below the surface and a few companies are leasing and drilling the Utica Shale for natural gas.
Utica Shale Petrology and Stratigraphy
Gas Royalty
Calculator The Utica Shale is an organic-rich calcareous black shale that was deposited about 440 to 460 million years ago during the Late Ordovician. It overlies the Trenton Limestone and is a few thousand feet below the Marcellus Shale (see the generalized stratigraphic column shown as Figure 5 in the right column of this page).
The Utica Shale has a much higher carbonate content than the Marcellus Shale and a lower clay mineral content. This difference in mineralogy produces a very different response to hydraulic fracturing treatments. The methods used in the Marcellus do not produce as much fracturing in the Utica. However, future research might be able to significantly improve the fracturing rate. (In Texas, the Eagle Ford Shale also has a high carbonate content. Drillers there have discovered ways to make the brittle carbonate zones fracture at a much higher rate than other gas shale rock units.)
The clastic rock units of the Appalachian Basin are generally thickest in the eastern part of their extent and thin towards the west. That generalization holds for the rock units between the Utica Shale and the Marcellus Shale. In Central Ohio the Utica Shale is less than 3000 feet below the Marcellus Shale and in central Pennsylvania the Utica Shale can be up to 7000 feet below the Marcellus (see the cross-section above labeled as Figure 4 for a visual of this concept).
Thickness of the Utica Shale
The thickness of the Utica Shale is variable. Throughout the potential source rock area it ranges in thickness from less than 100 feet to over 500 feet. Over the rock unit as a whole there is a general thinning from east to west. A thickness map of the Utica Shale is shown as Figure 5 in the right column of this page. Although thickness of a reservoir rock can be important, the organic content and presence of gas are what determines the true potential of a gas shale. Very little public information is available on the organic content of the Utica shale.
Future Development of the Utica Shale
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Two important challenges for developing the Utica Shale are its significant depth and a lack of information. In areas where the Marcellus Shale is present the Utica Shale is probably going to be a resource of the distant future. The Marcellus Shale is less expensive to develop and companies will focus on it before setting their sights on a deeper target with an uncertain payoff.
However, in areas where the Marcellus Shale has been developed the Utica will have an infrastructure advantage. Drilling pads, roadways, pipelines, gathering systems, surveying work, permit preparation data and landowner relationships might still be useful for developing the Utica Shale.
In areas beyond the Marcellus Shale the Utica has already become a primary target. Leasing and drilling are already occurring in eastern Ohio and Ontario, Canada with some wells capable of yielding commercial quantities of gas.
How Will the Utica Shale Be Drilled?
The Utica Shale is an unconventional reservoir like the Marcellus Shale. The rock unit can have significant porosity; however, the pore spaces are so small that natural gas has a difficult time flowing through them. Large amounts of gas is also adsorbed onto mineral material within the rock unit. The most likely methods to be used will be horizontal drilling with hydraulic fracturing.
The Utica Shale underlies parts of Lake Erie and Lake Ontario. Perhaps offshore drilling will occur there at some future date.
Video Interview: Potential of Other Gas Shale Formations in the Northeastern United States, Pennsylvania State University geologist Dr. Terry Engelder describes historical and recent drilling results for the Utica Shale.
Video by Questerre Energy that explains how hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling will be used to develop the Utica Shale in Quebec Canada.
A rock layer below the Marcellus Shale could prove to be another incredible source of natural gas.
The Marcellus Shale captured public attention when leasing and drilling activities began pumping billions of dollars into local economies and citizens began debating the environmental, social and economic impacts. All of this began suddenly in 2004 when Range Resources Corporation drilled the first Marcellus well using modern drilling technology.
Now, just a few years later, the Marcellus Shale is being developed into one of the world's largest natural gas fields. However, what we are seeing today from the Marcellus is only the first step in a sequence of natural gas plays. The second step is starting in the Utica Shale.
What is the Utica Shale?
The Utica Shale is a rock unit located a few thousand feet below the Marcellus Shale. It also has the potential to become an enormous natural gas resource. The Utica Shale is thicker than the Marcellus, it is more geographically extensive and it has already proven its ability to support commercial production.
It is impossible to say at this time how large the Utica Shale resource might be because it has not been thoroughly evaluated and little public information is available about its organic content, the thickness of organic-rich intervals and how it will respond to horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing. However, the results of early testing indicate that the Utica Shale will be a very significant resource.
Where is the Utica Shale?
The potential source rock portion of the Utica Shale is extensive. In the United States it underlies portions of Kentucky, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, West Virginia and Virginia. It is also present beneath parts of Lake Ontario, Lake Erie and part of Ontario, Canada. This geographic extent of potential Utica Shale source rock is shown on the map labeled as Figure 1 in the right column of this page. If the Utica is commercial throughout this extent it will be geographically larger than any natural gas field known today.
How Deep is the Utica Shale?
Learn AboutMineral Rights The Utica Shale is much deeper than the Marcellus. The Utica Shale elevation map shown as Figure 2 in the right column of this page has contour lines that show the elevation of the base of the Utica Shale in feet below sea level. In some parts of Pennsylvania the Utica Shale can be over two miles below sea level. However, the depth of the Utica Shale decreases to the west into Ohio and to the northwest under the Great Lakes and into Canada. In these areas the Utica Shale rises to less than 2000 feet below sea level. Beyond the potential source rock areas the Utica Shale rises to Earth's surface and can be seen in outcrop. An outcrop photo of the Utica Shale near the town of Donnaconna, Quebec, Canada is show in the right column of this page as Figure 3.
Most of the major rock units in the Appalachian Basin are thickest in the east and thin towards the west. The rock units that occur between the Marcellus Shale and the Utica Shale follow this trend. In central Pennsylvania, the Utica can be up to 7000 feet below the Marcellus Shale but that depth difference decreases to the west. In eastern Ohio the Utica can be less than 3000 feet below the Marcellus.
These depth relationships of the Utica Shale and the Marcellus Shale are shown in the generalized cross sections shown below as Figure 4a and Figure 4b.
This cross-section was compiled by Geology.com using data provided by the Energy Information Administration [1], the United States Geological Survey [2], the Pennsylvania Geological Survey [3], and the U.S. Department of Energy [4].
This cross-section was compiled by Geology.com using data provided by the Energy Information Administration [1], the United States Geological Survey [2], the Pennsylvania Geological Survey [3], and the U.S. Department of Energy [4].
Current Development of the Utica Shale Gas Play
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Oil and Gas Investments
Large Ownership. Small Investment Direct Partnership. Now Funding
oilandgasinvestment.com
The generalized cross-section for the Utica and Marcellus Shale shown above as Figure 4 illustrates why the Utica is being developed in some parts of the Ohio and Canada instead of the Marcellus.
Where Cross-Section 4a traverses the Pennsylvania-Ohio state boundary the Marcellus Shale is above the Utica and would be preferentially drilled because it is a shallower target. However, the productive portion of the Marcellus Shale does not extend into central Ohio - but the Utica Shale does. In those areas the Utica Shale is less than one mile below the surface and a few companies are leasing and drilling the Utica Shale for natural gas.
Utica Shale Petrology and Stratigraphy
Gas Royalty
Calculator The Utica Shale is an organic-rich calcareous black shale that was deposited about 440 to 460 million years ago during the Late Ordovician. It overlies the Trenton Limestone and is a few thousand feet below the Marcellus Shale (see the generalized stratigraphic column shown as Figure 5 in the right column of this page).
The Utica Shale has a much higher carbonate content than the Marcellus Shale and a lower clay mineral content. This difference in mineralogy produces a very different response to hydraulic fracturing treatments. The methods used in the Marcellus do not produce as much fracturing in the Utica. However, future research might be able to significantly improve the fracturing rate. (In Texas, the Eagle Ford Shale also has a high carbonate content. Drillers there have discovered ways to make the brittle carbonate zones fracture at a much higher rate than other gas shale rock units.)
The clastic rock units of the Appalachian Basin are generally thickest in the eastern part of their extent and thin towards the west. That generalization holds for the rock units between the Utica Shale and the Marcellus Shale. In Central Ohio the Utica Shale is less than 3000 feet below the Marcellus Shale and in central Pennsylvania the Utica Shale can be up to 7000 feet below the Marcellus (see the cross-section above labeled as Figure 4 for a visual of this concept).
Thickness of the Utica Shale
The thickness of the Utica Shale is variable. Throughout the potential source rock area it ranges in thickness from less than 100 feet to over 500 feet. Over the rock unit as a whole there is a general thinning from east to west. A thickness map of the Utica Shale is shown as Figure 5 in the right column of this page. Although thickness of a reservoir rock can be important, the organic content and presence of gas are what determines the true potential of a gas shale. Very little public information is available on the organic content of the Utica shale.
Future Development of the Utica Shale
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We can help you make an informed decision on whether or not to sell.
www.RoyaltyClearinghouse.com
Sell Your Mineral Rights
Mineral acres, ORRI, RI and others Get $ quick. Top $ Paid
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However, in areas where the Marcellus Shale has been developed the Utica will have an infrastructure advantage. Drilling pads, roadways, pipelines, gathering systems, surveying work, permit preparation data and landowner relationships might still be useful for developing the Utica Shale.
In areas beyond the Marcellus Shale the Utica has already become a primary target. Leasing and drilling are already occurring in eastern Ohio and Ontario, Canada with some wells capable of yielding commercial quantities of gas.
How Will the Utica Shale Be Drilled?
The Utica Shale is an unconventional reservoir like the Marcellus Shale. The rock unit can have significant porosity; however, the pore spaces are so small that natural gas has a difficult time flowing through them. Large amounts of gas is also adsorbed onto mineral material within the rock unit. The most likely methods to be used will be horizontal drilling with hydraulic fracturing.
The Utica Shale underlies parts of Lake Erie and Lake Ontario. Perhaps offshore drilling will occur there at some future date.
Video Interview: Potential of Other Gas Shale Formations in the Northeastern United States, Pennsylvania State University geologist Dr. Terry Engelder describes historical and recent drilling results for the Utica Shale.
Video by Questerre Energy that explains how hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling will be used to develop the Utica Shale in Quebec Canada.
jeff f
New Member
since i dont know alex jones or lindsey williams i will just take that as an insult.
so what you are saying is, if i am starving cuz there is no food available, that chicken sammich i pull out of the dumpster isnt gonna help? while, it may not solve my problem immediately, it may sustain me long enough till i learn how to farm.
you are the one who is short sighted. we need more cheap oil to find the future energy. choking off people of energy, for no good reason, isnt gonna increase our ability to train, educate, fund the engineers who will discover the future. all the chicken littles want to do is get rid of oil for getting rid of oils sake. just stupid.
i got an idea, how about we shoot all the horses then we will invent the car. dumb.
short sighted buffoons
canndo
Well-Known Member
Now, I have already explained this once but I will try again. The price of oil is volatile and because it is, those attempts to find alternatives that you claim that need oil (although even this logic is flawed) are rarely mounted when oil is cheap and only spurred on by expensive crude. So you have a situation whereby the more expensive the crude the more work is done on finding an alternative. That is the nature of our economy. The higher the price of the crude the more profit potential those alternatives exhibit. Now, extending cheap crude in the interest of finding that golden alternative is short sighted and claiming that "all the chicken littles want to do is get rid of oil for getting rid of oil's sake" is buffoonish.
jeff f
New Member
since i dont know alex jones or lindsey williams i will just take that as an insult.
so what you are saying is, if i am starving cuz there is no food available, that chicken sammich i pull out of the dumpster isnt gonna help? while, it may not solve my problem immediately, it may sustain me long enough till i learn how to farm.
you are the one who is short sighted. we need more cheap oil to find the future energy. choking off people of energy, for no good reason, isnt gonna increase our ability to train, educate, fund the engineers who will discover the future. all the chicken littles want to do is get rid of oil for getting rid of oils sake. just stupid.
i got an idea, how about we shoot all the horses then we will invent the car. dumb.
short sighted buffoons
canndo
Well-Known Member
Note that I did comment on the Shale Hemlock, I said I was talking about crude.
oh i see, don't worry dude we will come up with something.
don't wanna comment on shale?
The Ruiner
Well-Known Member
It wasnt an insult, it was pointing out the obvious that those men are not involved in the oil industry, as much as Mr. Williams wants everyone to think that he was - being a pastor does not in any way shape or form, qualify his views on oil/energy....they are dreamers, dudes with absolutely no experience that purport falsehood after falsehood slathered in hate and fear. My point is that maybe, just maybe, you should look away from what people like those two are saying, and start paying attention to the actual oil market and it's players. The moment you do this, a clear picture of what's happening emerges, and its nothing like what Jones, Williams, and their ilk want you to believe it to be. There is no reason in the world that US companies wouldn't be actively pursuing oil endeavors domestically, why would they suppress their own profits? It makes absolutely no sense.
The highlighted portion of your comment is exactly what our government is doing, in case you failed to realize that there is a world-wide resources grab going on at the moment. I am still failing to see how and why you are reluctant to support your government in the action you say will actually help us...
And if you need help on farming, I am your man....I can cultivate damn near anything that will grow on US soil...which is just about anything depending on where you are at...I am a firm believer that there needs to be a government backed-back-to-the-land movement, and I advocate cannabis indica/sativa & cannabis industrialis as major components of that movement for the myriad of beneficial aspects of their cultivation. There is absolutely no reason that any American should go hungry, even through an oil crisis. I find the handling of our countries Strategic Grain Reserve appalling, and dangerous. We have to stop relying on foreign food imports as much as possible. My plan promotes jobs, food, freedom and security, all while performing a vital service to millions of Americans. It's the mega-corporations and elements within government that present a hindrance to implication of such a plan...they too fail to see the big picture, or even in desperate times, fail to think outside the box...which I ultimately think can pose a threat to our country. But, as long as people demand bullshit food in the name of "freedom of choice" then the iron-grip these corporations have over our politicians will continue...
And I don't believe there is anyone who has ever given any serious thought to the issue that would advocate getting rid of oil all together...It's just totally absurd. I wouldn't give those people 2 seconds of time. There has been plenty of research into alternatives, its just that nothing has been found that can step in and fill the void if oil were to disappear altogether.
The Ruiner
Well-Known Member
jeff f
New Member
our current regime isnt promoting cheap energy. it is trying to turn citizens against the people who are responsible for heating their homes, running their cars etc. we are being programmed to think that profit is bad, oil is bad blah blah blah.
and you may be the best farmer in the world, but you cant plow fields to fill peoples refrigerators without a steady supply of cheap oil. oil, and its counterparts, coal, wind, tides, rivers, should all be expoited to the fullest. the cheaper the energy, the more people can afford to eat, educate, engineer ect. expensive energy means the collapse of civilization and human suffering. and our current govt is leading the charge.
thats my take. am i still misunderstanding your point?
canndo
Well-Known Member
Fracking, infrastructure and vehicle conversions Hemlock. 20 years at least. So far we can't run airplanes on Natural Gas.
The Ruiner
Well-Known Member
Our current "Regime" is putting its neck out on the line for cheap energy...you wondered about Libya & Brazil...where there you go dude...It's right there infront of you. Our government is doing all that it can to make sure that you still get the relatively cheap petroleum products for your vehicle...
My point is that energy is not going to get any cheaper, and neither will food production...therefore a plan like I have is imperative to the success of this country in the future. More holistic initiative to food production will free up A LOT of petroleum resources....and give people food and JOBS...they may not be the most lucrative, but I would try to have people consider it a life-style choice: Freedom of the land and its demands, or 9-5 drudgery for less and less pay. Expensive energy is not necessarily the collapse of civilization, it's just a reality to be planned for...acccurately and honestly.