Atheism Anyone?

undertheice

Well-Known Member
If you see this as certainty then so be it. I simply see it as skepticism, and as an accurate reflection of those calling themselves atheists today.
what we call certainty so often seems to come after our choices have already been made, especially when dealing with matters of faith. we may make our decisions based on faulty logic or no logic at all, but that's just the way it is. my own feelings on the subject are that we should at least be able to admit these lapses in reason for what they are and not hide behind the mask of incomplete science. using the excuse of absent evidence or a dislike for the actions and attitudes of the religious just seems to be such shallow reasoning when faced with the enormity of the god myth, that the feigned superiority seen in so many professed atheists really irks me. doubt on the subject would seem a natural and healthy reaction in an inquisitive mind, but outright denial would seem to require a far more compelling reason than simply inadequate information.
 

0011StealTH

Active Member
i am no a atheist as i understand more of the world with IN us neither im a religious fanatic. all i believe is self responsibility and self forgiveness the rest can be flush.
I AM MY OWN CREATOR.
 

Brazko

Well-Known Member
Pantheist would be closer to an accurate term for moi...-

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate,
of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most
radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason
in their most elementary forms it is this knowledge and this
emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this
sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."
- Albert Einstein

Aside: since this is a gathering of Atheist, how did you all go about telling your family/friends that you are Atheist? I don't consider myself Atheist but technically I would be deemed one and find it quite complicated trying to explain this to somebody religious, in particular to people of the Judeo Christian faith. So I was wondering how did you all go about expressing your Atheism or do you keep it to yourselves?
 

karri0n

Well-Known Member
Padawanbater said:
Only another atheist would understand why this makes absolutely no sense,

No, we still have evidence that points towards a specific conclusion.. It isn't as if it's one theory vs. another and if there's no clear conclusion to which one is true, they're both useless and we just go by what most people think is true.. Confused logic. The evidence mounts when we discover new things. Evolution v. ID, do you know how many peer reviewed scientific papers I could cite about the theory of evolution? How many could you cite in support of ID? You can't honestly look at this example and say both theories hold the same amount of weight regarding credibility. One is clearly much more supported by the scientific community.

This seems more likely to you than someone sitting down and thinking about the logical inconsistencies and paradox's, overall, most world religions are littered with, seeing the clear evidence supporting the real origins of our species and seeing side by side those same world religions touting truth as ultimate authority dismiss it because it doesn't agree with what they've already established to be true (because there's no way to say "God fucked up but everything else is right, trust me!)?


Only someone with an understanding of spirituality would understand why all of this makes no sense.

You are arguing against Intelligent Design, and plot holes in fables.

Spirituality is not about dogma, it's not about explaining the origin of speciation. It's not about knowing how the earth was created. Spirituaity is about connecting and aligning yourself with divinity. Different religions have different means of doing this. Some have become quite corrupted. I do not deny that some seek for power and control and have little to do with spiituality themselves.


The fact is, while maybe not all atheists are not simply antagonistic hotheads that are butthurt about christianty and mad at their parents, You, Pad, are one of these, at least for now.

It's admirable that you turn to biology, cosmology, chemistry, etc. to learn and educate yourself about the world. It's also 100% fine to not believe in god. You excel in logic and reasoning. Maybe you also excel in music, maybe you do not. Where your faculties ARE lacking is in the existential/spiritual area. You don't feel any type of connection with the divine, and you don't understand why ayone would have a need of it.

Someone else may not be good with numbers, but is exceptionally proficient in spiritual intelligence. They can pass in and out of meditation or prayer with ease, and have a very clear understanding of and deep connection with their particualar brand of god.

It's not ok to accuse someone of being ignorant or unintelligent simply because their faculties differ from yours. It's not ok to antagonize someone because their worldview is different than yours.

You would do well with some sort of non-denominational meditation practice, and a study of some philosophy. Perhaps meditate on a particular piece of philosophy that you enjoy.

Religious dogma and belief in deity in the sense you associate are not necessary for healthy spiritual practice, however a decent spiritual practice IS very necessary for a complete, happy, and psychologically healthy life. Seriously bro. It's as simple as toke up, sit comfortably somewhere silent and comfortable, close your eyes, and clear your mind. Just keep letting your thoughts pass away every time you notice yourself focusing on something, and clear your mind once again.

It'd probably be good for those anger issues as well:cuss::cuss:



It is an interesting question. Why do atheists persist? But your remarks only pertains to those who claim God doesn't exist. Do atheist always need to make a claim? What do you call someone who simply finds no good reason to believe the claim of a god and therefore dismisses it?


It's called agnostic. Athiest, by definition, is denying the existence of god, regardless of whether modern atheists some want to change the word's meaning to reflect a less inflammatory position. In my mind, people who claim to be "atheist" but really take an agnostic stanpoint(we can't know or I don't feel the need to be religious) should just call themselves what they are - agnostic.

Again you argue against a strawman and assume a false dichotomy. That someone is either certain of god or certain of no god. Skeptics simply site the lack of evidence and the availability of less presumptuous explanations, and therefore dismiss the conclusion. This automatically qualifies us as atheists. Just as all newborns are atheists, and just as people who believe in a deity are atheist to every god but the one(s) they worship or fear.

Once again, these that you are naming are agnostic. Either unaware or apathetic to the existence of a god. Atheism by definition is completely denying the possibility of the existence of a god.

As far as people being "atheist" to every god but the one they worship - I don't think I agree with this.

Christians believe any other "gods" are actually either demons, or satan in disguise.

Neopagans attribute just as much power to one god as any other - essentially the powers and domains given to that god in their mythology. Neptune would have power over the seas as based in his mythology, Jehovah would have power over everything, as is said in his own mythology.

Buddhists recognize that all religions have worth and don't refute or deny them

In fact, the only group I see consistently denying all other gods except their own(which in this case becomes all of them) is atheism.
 
Jesus said to his apostles: "you shall not only do these works, but greater works still"

Christianity in it's true form is a religion of doing, and of miracles. Most people don't have a camera rolling when a miracle occurs. But that doesn't mean there are no miracles. I suppose a witness of Gods power would convert some of you, but others would see it and doubt or make excuses as to the true meaning of the miracle.

It's the same with evolution. We have never seen it happen. We feel we have enough facts to support evolution because science shows us a very smart song and dance.

But the theory changes. So what is fact if fact changes? If you didn't have the facts ten years ago, or twenty years ago or thirty years ago to have an accurate belief in evolution now.....what about the next 30 years? Can you really say you have it figured out and this NEW theory will not change?

Here is a movie about miracle

[video=youtube;bSiTnN3uU3g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSiTnN3uU3g[/video]
 
I'm just posting these to let people know what miracles are out there. Do your own searching for "Miracles Proven" and see for your self.

[video=youtube;RtoosvGIqYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtoosvGIqYs[/video]
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
You are arguing against Intelligent Design, and plot holes in fables.

Spirituality is not about dogma, it's not about explaining the origin of speciation. It's not about knowing how the earth was created. Spirituaity is about connecting and aligning yourself with divinity. Different religions have different means of doing this. Some have become quite corrupted. I do not deny that some seek for power and control and have little to do with spiituality themselves.
Do me a favor and define these terms for me so I understand exactly what you're talking about;

-divinity
-spirituality

The religious insist on attacking the science, that's where my, and other atheists like me, adamant defense of it comes in. It's fine to believe whatever you want, in your own head, in your private time, but when you attack known knowledge it took, in some cases, centuries of work to obtain, that's when I have a problem.

This upsets me more than words can express, it's like giving an illiterate person access to wikipedia. You do a little investigating and discover that the reason these people criticize or openly deny certain scientific theories is because they conflict with their preconceived religious worldview.




The fact is, while maybe not all atheists are not simply antagonistic hotheads that are butthurt about christianty and mad at their parents, You, Pad, are one of these, at least for now.
Well that doesn't mean anything to me, you don't know me personally so I don't think you can make that kind of judgment.

I'm an "antagonistic hothead who is butthurt about Christianity and mad at my parents"... allllright... lets assess that..

Antagonistic? Definitely. I encourage people to read the bullshit found in their Bibles, what better way to turn a person atheist?

Butthurt about Christianity? In a sense, sure, it upsets me something so dangerous could completely overcome just about our whole species. It's upsetting that there are so many people out there who reinforce insane beliefs because they're scared of death, because they can't understand how their life could have any meaning without some grand design, some destiny for them to fulfill. That they could be so selfish to see the manipulation right in front of their faces and still let the herd mentality take control and justify it because everyone else does it too.

Does it bother me Christianity keeps stupid people stupid? Yes, very much.

Mad at my parents? Not in the least, love em both.

Where your faculties ARE lacking is in the existential/spiritual area. You don't feel any type of connection with the divine, and you don't understand why ayone would have a need of it.
I understand why people would feel like they need to believe in God.

How do you know what you might feel at any given moment is "the divine"?

Someone else may not be good with numbers, but is exceptionally proficient in spiritual intelligence. They can pass in and out of meditation or prayer with ease, and have a very clear understanding of and deep connection with their particualar brand of god.
"spiritual intelligence"?

The "connection" they feel is a subjective opinion, nothing can be measured, tested analyzed or observed. It essentially comes down to what you THINK you are feeling, being a religious person, you would automatically THINK it's this connection with "the divine" so that's what you would conclude. Me being an atheist, I could sit down, clear my thoughts and meditate all day long, I would never reach the conclusion that I'm somehow sharpening my "spiritual intelligence".

It's not ok to accuse someone of being ignorant or unintelligent simply because their faculties differ from yours. It's not ok to antagonize someone because their worldview is different than yours.
I call stupidity where I see it. It's STUPID for people to claim evolution doesn't happen. There is no more being nice about this stuff, you guys need to understand, these STUPID beliefs have implications that reach much farther than your doorstep. It is these STUPID beliefs millions of people have that are completely holding us back in just about every conceivable way.

If you have a stupid opinion, I call you on it and you are unable to defend it, then you must admit you are wrong and change your opinion. This is how logic works. This is how debate works. Being nice and saying "oh it's your belief, you go ahead and have it, I'll think you're kinda silly for having it but yeah, just go ahead... so adorable..." doesn't work, you guys don't get it, it's wrong to send this stuff into the future for younger generations to face.

You can't defend your stupid belief, sorry to be so blunt about it, but sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. :joint: If you can, stand proud and run through all the information you researched with me, show me how you came to your conclusion and you might just change my mind, the goal of science, to figure shit out, the right way, unbiased.
 
If you would like more information about miracles and also an in depth discussion on real Christianity I would be willing to chat some time. Not to convert you, but as a person who has seen the real thing.
 

cannaboy

Well-Known Member
Where is it written that the talking monkeys are supposed to find out the origin of the existance?- Terrence McKenna.

But in all reality, People should be able to believe what they want without someone superimposing thier belief onto them.

Nothings wrong with presenting someone with your take on things religious or other wise, but when people start to condemn and judge others based on thier beliefs, that's where the problems start...and that may just be a counterreaction from someone elses beliefs being pushed onto them so they do it to others subconciously.

Either way..We are still One collective conciousness on the same ride of life with totally different experiences..Let's have fun and work togetherbongsmilie..or not.:-|
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Jesus said to his apostles: "you shall not only do these works, but greater works still"

Christianity in it's true form is a religion of doing, and of miracles. Most people don't have a camera rolling when a miracle occurs. But that doesn't mean there are no miracles. I suppose a witness of Gods power would convert some of you, but others would see it and doubt or make excuses as to the true meaning of the miracle.

It's the same with evolution. We have never seen it happen. We feel we have enough facts to support evolution because science shows us a very smart song and dance.

But the theory changes. So what is fact if fact changes? If you didn't have the facts ten years ago, or twenty years ago or thirty years ago to have an accurate belief in evolution now.....what about the next 30 years? Can you really say you have it figured out and this NEW theory will not change?
When we understand that there are rules about what can be considered evidence, and then levels to how reliable the type of evidence is, we realize that there is no real proof of miracles without the benefit of spin.

Spin becomes apparent in the second paragraph. We start with a strawman. 'Evolution has never been seen.' Micro evolution is witnessed quite often, and macro evolution happens too slowly to observe without examining historical data. Never the less that data is there and supported by many independent lines of study. Referring to evolution as a song and dance is an attempt to further poison the well.

The third paragraph makes an argument that we should never change our mind. We should come to a conclusion and then ignore all future evidence despite where it leads. Science makes no conclusions without the understanding that things can change if new data is introduced. Which attitude seems more prudent?

You don't think in 30 years we will have improved our ability to detect and interpret data? Somehow if those improvements shed new light on a subject, it makes the subject invalid? The fact that we have found better ways to support evolution than we had 30 years ago is somehow a bad thing?

Do you realize that a person can accept evolution without being an atheist? Do you think all atheists support evolution? Do you think the theory of evolution makes any claims about a creator what so ever? Do you think evolution attempts to explain the beginning of life? You seem to be asserting conclusions about a subject of which you are not informed. If you do not take the time to think critically about the things you say, how can we trust that you have given critical thought to miracles and evolution?

Once again we see at the heart of this argument the same we see with nearly every attack on evolution, a deep and unchallenged ignorance of the very claims evolution makes.
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
I almost can't believe the sheer retardation this this thread. If I didn't know people like this in real life I don't think I would believe it; I would attribute it to being trolls. I mean, wow. Pad and Heis make all the relevant points that needed to be made.
 

karri0n

Well-Known Member
Do me a favor and define these terms for me so I understand exactly what you're talking about;

-divinity
-spirituality
Divinity - The creative force in the universe. Call it what you will - chaos and order, synchronicity, God, spirit, Mana, Prana, magic. It's what's responsible for the patterns that allow our universe to exist and harbor life.

Spirituality - One's connection with divinity


The religious insist on attacking the science, that's where my, and other atheists like me, adamant defense of it comes in. It's fine to believe whatever you want, in your own head, in your private time, but when you attack known knowledge it took, in some cases, centuries of work to obtain, that's when I have a problem.
You have a problem with religious people even if they make no claims regarding evolution or the origin of the world.

A minority of people, from a single religion which is a minority in the world, deny essentially two theories that are put forth by science. Evolution and the big bang. The vast majority of people, religious or not, either accept these, are too stupid to understand what these theories entail. or too apathetic to give a shit. For the most part, it's far more important who got the most votes on this week's Idol. The beliefs of these people don't affect the advancement of knowledge. Someone who studies astrophysics and has the ability to make discoveries and further our knowledge, does not deny the big bang. Even if they do personally, on a professional level they cannot, as they need to work within the constrains of current evidence. A biologist does not deny evolution. As long as your paper towels get rung out successfully, why does it matter if the wal-mart cashier understands evolution?

Never mind the trillions of dollars worth of humanitarian aid given to third world countries and disaster victims, never mind that agoraphobic aunt Delores wouldn't ever leave her house and would continue to spiral ever deeper into mental illness if she did not get the social interaction that her once a week trip to church on sunday brings her, THAT GUY OVER THERE MIGHT NOT KNOW ABOUT HOMO ERECTUS!11!1!!!1! BURN THE CHURCH DOWN!!




Butthurt about Christianity? In a sense, sure, it upsets me something so dangerous could completely overcome just about our whole species. It's upsetting that there are so many people out there who reinforce insane beliefs because they're scared of death, because they can't understand how their life could have any meaning without some grand design, some destiny for them to fulfill. That they could be so selfish to see the manipulation right in front of their faces and still let the herd mentality take control and justify it because everyone else does it too.
You, like many people who leave Christianity, have a bone to pick with Christianity. You assign qualities of fundamentalist Christianity to all forms of religion, simply because you were taught Christianity is the only way. You're so entrenched into the thought of "Christianity is the only religion" that you have flat out denied the possibility that someone(myself in this case) could have been raised atheist. You grasp onto things such as intelligent design and the desire for control that fundamentalist religions have as your scapegoat for your anger. You assign fundamentalist qualities to religions and schools of thought that contain no dogma whatsoever. You accuse religions that do not attempt to delve into the creation of the universe, or explain it in metaphor, of attempting to subvert what we know about evolution and astrophysics. Your extreme anti-christian prejudice clouds your vision of just what it is that you are rallying against. You're allowing your own anger to poison you, making you stray from logic and reason, and you lash out at others who have nothing to do with the organization that you're angry at.



Does it bother me Christianity keeps stupid people stupid? Yes, very much.


Stupid people do a damn fine job of that all by themselves, but I agree wholeheartedly that the "do not question" mentality put forth by many christian organizations is harmful.


I understand why people would feel like they need to believe in God.
No. You understand ONE reason of very, very many, and you think it's fear of the unknown. You don't understand why people are spiritual - even those who don't believe in any traditional form of deity.

How do you know what you might feel at any given moment is "the divine"?
Through experience. Through training. Through knowing what the fuck I'm talking about, knowing what I'm doing, and knowing what I'm seeing.

"spiritual intelligence"?

Me being an atheist, I could sit down, clear my thoughts and meditate all day long, I would never reach the conclusion that I'm somehow sharpening my "spiritual intelligence".
Yes I realize that. We have touched on your willful ignorance of the facts before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences#Existential



I call stupidity where I see it. It's STUPID for people to claim evolution doesn't happen. There is no more being nice about this stuff, you guys need to understand, these STUPID beliefs have implications that reach much farther than your doorstep. It is these STUPID beliefs millions of people have that are completely holding us back in just about every conceivable way.


Can you tell me what "stupid beliefs" you are referencing? How exactly are they holding us back? Please note, as stated earlier, what some fundamentalist Christian in Alabama thinks has no bearing on the work of a student of astrophysics or biology. Even if it did, whatever was presented would be quickly debunked in peer review.


You can't defend your stupid belief, sorry to be so blunt about it, but sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. :joint: If you can, stand proud and run through all the information you researched with me, show me how you came to your conclusion and you might just change my mind, the goal of science, to figure shit out, the right way, unbiased.

[/COLOR]
Let's be clear on this. I'm in no way spouting an opinion. I'm stating facts. If you had an unbiased opinion, and based your claims on evidence, we would be in agreement.

My "Stupid belief": It's better to have some sort of spiritual practice than to not.


The research has been done. Psychologists and clinicians agree. From stress relief, to fighting fatigue, to lower blood pressure, to improved psychological stability and health, to people using meditation and prayer for weight loss, to just being generally happier - spirituality, prayer, and meditation are healthy lifestyle choices. Clinical studies have been done and the benefits are shown. Stupid belief or not, the evidence is on my side on this one.



Do you realize that a person can accept evolution without being an atheist? Do you think all atheists support evolution?
I realize you are talking to someone who is denying evolution, but do you think all people who are religious or spiritual do NOT accept it? Even the pope supports it...
 

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman

Well-Known Member
Im an atheist, im also a humanist. i find religion in the west and middle east to be humorous, and abhorrent at the same time. i became an atheist after i took home a bible from sunday school and read it when i was 7 years old. pretty much made me think about the content into which we read and why people believe what they do, turns out its pretty much left to conditioning. i believe every religion to spring up from the middle east is a long going ponzi scheme, where priests, rabbis and bishops/popes hold power over the masses, who are mostly uneducated. but that will change soon... very soon. it feeds off of fear, hysteria, ignorance and hope. i dont go around de-converting people, i just argue alot and point out hypocrisy, and i find it awful that people thank god for shit that OTHER people do, like getting out of a hospital alive, when surgeons and medical staff help them each step of the way. most just want to give thanks to something and the statement is meaningless, but others are true believers and think the hospital they paid 10-100,100k was a high paid vacation for masochists lol.
 
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