High-pressure (aka "true") aeroponics - nutrient schedule?

[ilikecheetoes]

Great thread.
There was a great one as well with a bunch of pictures. Ended up using 5gallon buckets slid inside another bucket. Project - forget the fogger, I'm going HP aero is what I would google to find it. Thats the path I wanted to head down. Easy to move them around.
Some concerns I have about using 5 gallon buckets and HP-Aero in general.
1. the plan is SOG so the buckets will be almost touching. But is a 5 gallon bucket even big enough for a root zone per plant?
2. Root zone temp and environment... How the hell do you keep the temp down in the root zone? My ambient temp in the room is 80-85. I have chillers for the res but it seems I'm going to need to find a way to cool down the actual root zone. ugh.
thoughts?

 

[Deximus]

How well do those ADV's work? For $12 a piece I could just throw a solenoid right before every nozzle.

Hey Bob, where do you get your solenoids?

 

[Bob Smith]

Ebizzay.

Got four of these (have ~10 others of various shapes/sizes for different projects, including the 4 12V 3/8" ones I bought for this project and never used):

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-4-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-120-volt-Air-Water-BBTF-/300526939285?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f8cd2c95

 

[Atomizer]

The 12v version is a lot safer for humid environments

 

[Bob Smith]

The 12v version is a lot safer for humid environments

Lol, I know - original plan was to run everything off of 12V (timer as well), but there was a month long wait for the timer on 12V and when I realized I could get a UPS as a mitigant against power outages, I was off the 12V bandwagon and back to 120V (you already knew that, was explaining to others reading my reasons).

But you're right - my next room might use those 12V solenoids I've got sitting around collecting dust.

If I get electrocuted, feel free to say "I told you so"

How's the air atomizing project coming along?

Oh, and how many nozzles could one run off of the 25L Bambi that the Atomix uses? The only way I could see going to air atomized would be if one compressor could run 8 nozzles (if not more; assuming two for each 3'x3' "pod" ), and they'd be perpetual so the cycles would be different for each.

Would something like this work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-1-5HP-Noiseless-Oil-Free-Dental-Air-Compressor-/280636379564?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41573b51ac

 

[Atomizer]

Wear rubber boots and gloves whenever you`re in the growroom
There are too many variables to make a guess, you`d need to do the math to be sure the compressor will handle the air demand without running too often.
The compressor in your link isn`t what i`d call noiseless at 55db, but it`s a helluva lot quieter than a 95db shop compressor

 

[Bob Smith]

Yeah, I don't need "noiseless" - my 150PSI pump makes quite a damn racket if I'm in the growroom (think "jackhammer"), but it's not audible outside of it (I can barely hear it from my kitchen, which I actually like because I can listen for if it's working instead of having to go in and check).

My room is so insulated that short of a rape whistle-type noise, I'm not real worried about sound.

If you could let me know what equations would be applicable I could run the numbers - what variables are there besides tubing run length and amount of bends? For any other variables (like pressure, etc.) I'd just use the default Atomix "settings" (40PSI air pressure, etc.).

 

[PetFlora]

Hey guys. This thread is about nutrient schedules. It is not the place for all this hardware dialog. Not that I am ragging on anyone, but people who are curious about HPA set ups will not be looking under 'nutrient schedule. I will start a new thread titled HPA Growers Guide, which should help. I suggest you copy your hardware comments and past there so we can give it some continuity.

 

[Atomizer]

kettle pot comes to mind

BobS, please let me know when you source those high psi mist heads.

nutrient related:
increase the EC if your mist levels are closer to lp than hp, decrease the EC if your mist levels are closer to hp than lp, and if you run air-assisted...just show them the bottle but dont put any in

 

[PetFlora]

The new thread is up. Let's all take hardware related issues to the HPA Growers Guide

 

[Bob Smith]

PF, anyone searching for aero info will find this thread, as we have all managed to find it..........if someone can't figure out the "search" button on a website, I don't like their chances of setting up a good system.

Atomizer, can you throw a mathematically inclined guy a bone in regards to what equation(s) I would need to solve to figure out what size compressor I would need?

 

[Atomizer]

The new thread is a waste of bandwidth imho, there are other threads that explain hp aero hardware more than adequately.. just use the search button
Bob, start with the nozzle air demand (cfm) at the working pressure ie; 40psi. Figure out how much air the compressor receiver will provide (cfm) between the cut-in and cut-out pressures based on the tank volume. You can find out the pressure switch differential from the compressor specification, its usually around 3bar, (eg compressor cut-in @ 5bar, cut-out @8bar).
Figure out how long the tank air will last based on the timing cycle and number of nozzles in the system. A longer misting pulse and/or a shorter pause will consume the tank air faster so its best use the longest pulse and the shortest pause timing you think you`ll need.
That gives you the worst case tank drain time. You use the compressor spec to figure out how long the compressor will take to recharge the tank. For the 5-8bar differential i`d use the compressors specified 6.5bar cfm flow figure for an average.
That will get you somewhere in the ballpark.

 

[Bob Smith]

Merci beaucoup; you're running two AA nozzles now, correct?

And I looked back at the start of this thread, and it turned to strictly equipment talk by like post #5..............which brought me to your vertical setup - did you ever get that rocking and rolling, and if so do you have any more intricate diagrams (a pic would be even better ).

Still throwing around ideas in my head........

 

[kmbud]

Hi
New to growing, but am techo savy and I want to try HPA. I have looked at and read all material I can find on the net and forums. It seems all the most current information and forums end about two months ago. Before I invest time and money in building a HPA system I would like to know if there is a up to date (recent) support network. I know atomizer and bob are into this very heavy and it appears to me to be among the most knowledgeable and most helpful as far as good and true information. So My question is, are there any place on the net as far as forums or whatever that are up to date and still active? Thanks for any and all help.

 

[Atomizer]

Hi kmbud
Just to clarify, Bob was on his first attempt with hp aero, the last i heard he was having a few problems with mist coverage in the restricted space of his tubes but he always expected that to happen. Hopefully he got his girls to harvest but for now it seems he`s dropped off the map.

Having limited growing experience is a good thing in one respect as you wont need to "unlearn" as much stuff, but its bad in another as most of the adjustments are intuative and come from watching the plants.

A common theme with the more informative hp aero threads around the net is the authors didnt care one jott whether there was any support in place or not before they dived in

Trichy B sums it up quite well in his True Aero for 2011 thread

For me it's about the journey just as much as the destination in this case, but if your only interested in final throughput, you might end up in frustration.

 

[kmbud]

Yes I don't want to make the avoidable mistakes, but I know mistakes will happen it's part of the learning curve. I am wanting to start buying the equipment I will need. So far I have bought the ART-Dne timer with another one as back-up. I bought three solenoids cheep off ebay but they are brass and I think I may not need to use that material. I have looked at Acetal (Delrin) 3/8 inch units from Radford Brothers but are 24v. I didn't see any 12v on their site. But I could maybe use the Aquatec 8800 24v pump and wire the solenoids there.

But my biggest question is pod size. I have seen any where from Calvage using 5 gal buskets to this other guy suggesting some where around a 5 ft deep pod. I am going to use a grow tent and planning to grow indies, probally white widow. So between the grow light and pod size I don't have much room left. Totes seem to be my only option. I was planning around 10 plants but may have to trim that down to fit under a 600-1000w light. What would be your suggestion to use as a pod? As always thanks for any and all help.

 

[Atomizer]

Your plan seems close to an atomix sized grow so i`d go for something along the same lines but slightly deeper. Build a homebrew chamber 1m x 1m square x 450mm deep with 9 sites arranged in a 3x3 format. The overall chamber height would be around 2ft allowing for drainage/ run-off container underneath..
The atomix chamber construction is very basic but you could adapt it for different materials.Essentially its a box framework with lexan/perspex panels on the outside and a box welded pond liner on the inside. Not 100% sure but it probably used rigid insulation inside the box framing between the lexan/perspex outer and the liner (see 2nd attached pic).
The atomix used 2 AA nozzles to fill the chamber but hydraulic nozzles don`t have that kind of coverage so you``ll need to increase the number. If you use long throw, narrow cone nozzles you may get away with 4, locate the nozzles about 1/3rd the distance down from the top and control each with its own solenoid. The other attached pic will give you an idea of the nozzle/solenoid placements. Larger chambers allow the mist patterns to fully develop, overlap and fill the space. A 5gal bucket gives the mist no chance.. the nozzles just pressure wash the walls

 

[kmbud]

Using my metric conversion thats about 40 inches square and 18 inches deep. Not sure what you mean about box welded pond liner, unless you mean to build the framework and put in a pond liner sheet then fold the overlap that forms in the corners around the sides of the enclosure. Using that method it would be an easy tear down if needed. I like this open chamber design! (Firestone PondGard EPDM Pond Liner, 10'x15', 45 mil $120 shipped) (this size would be enough to line the top also). Where would the drain be located, at the center of the bottom panel? I thinking I could use a sink drain assembly if there is enough clearance.

I have been looking at the Cloudtops Red nozzles with the anti-drip feature. Talking to the rep they need 35 psi to crack and recomends 100 psi to open and operate corectly. My original thoughts were to put maybe two per plant firing from the top to the bottom. The specs on these are 115 degree cone 0.0159 gpm @72 psi, and 0.0211 gpm @ 130 psi. These I think are made from acetal to make them resistant to clogging. By using these anti-drip nozzles, is it possible to use one solenoid or maybe two to control the nozzles running somewhere around 100 psi? Would something like this work? If not what nozzles are you suggesting?

As always thanks for you help and advice.

Edit: After looking up Atomix on the web I see they are air assisted it seems. I really don't want to go the air assisted route because of the cost of silent air compressors.

 

[Atomizer]

The atomix used 2 AA nozzles to fill the chamber but hydraulic nozzles don`t have that kind of coverage so you`ll need to increase the number

The atomix sized chamber will work equally well with hydraulic nozzles. A 115deg wide angle will have a short throw, you need a long throw with a narrow angle so the mist can travel across the chamber mostly between the netpots. The converging mist patterns work together to fill the space, the layout diagram shows the narrowest part of the mist pattern being reinforced by the widest part of another. The high velocity mist at each nozzle meets with the slower moving mist from the preceding nozzle at 90 degrees, which imparts some clockwise spin to the overall mist flow in the chamber.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Hi Guys... Well kmbud- I'm also trying to set up a hp system here too, so perhaps we can support eachother with a little guidance from Atomizer... I'm planning to use this deck storage box for my rootchamber: http://www.homedepot.com/Storage-Organization-Sheds-Garages-Outdoor-Storage-Deck-Boxes/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbtz1/R-202046942/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 as it is dual wall construction and should provide some insulation (after some initial testing I will decide if it needs the void between the 2 layers to be filled with spray foam or not). I plan to cut in a small swinging door in the front to be able to see the rootchamber without raising the lid...

In regards to nozzle placement I was planning on the lid, but perhaps you would recommend the upper sidewalls Atomizer?

One final thing- in regards to BobSmith's Idea to use a humidistat, I was also thinking along these ideas, especially since my box is outside in the everchanging weather and sunlight pattterns. I reckon all the variables will change the evaporation rate constantly and if I had a feedback device controlling the spray, I would be alot better off than just a set timer. I can see how a simple humidistat cannot do the job, but can't help thinking that technology has found ways to imrpove on most of our senses and if we can sense when the pod requires another misting, then there has got to be a way to do it electronically. I'd assume spraying exactly when needed would yield even better results than a static timer would in anyone's case unless they are growing in a hermetic environment. Does anyone think that some sort of electrical continuity fueled by the electrolytic mist could work. Such as a 5mm strand of hair suspended in the chamber with electrodes on each end that would dry at roughly the same rate as an average root would, and when the circuit is broken by it drying, it would trigger a 1 second burt of mist? Just thinking here- there must be an answer.