Ebb and Flow - Hydroton by itslef?

roots3003

Member
This is my first hydro setup, it's ebb and flow. I have a 2'X4' tray that Ifilled with hydroton. It seems like it wants to float when I flood the tray, so I am thinking if I just put plants straight into it, the roots won't be able to take hold. This tray will be used for flowering, the tray that will be in veg. will be a drip system with rockwool cubes.

When I mve them to veg, should I just keep them in the RW cubes, and those will be heavy enough to not float up with the hydroton? Or would it work just as well to not even use the RW, just get like 4 or 6" square pots and fill them with hydroton, and put them in the ebb and flow like that? What will work the best and get me the best yield?

If anyone can direct me to some pics of a nice ebb and flow setup, just so I can see how people are running theirs, that would also be very helpful. Thanks.
 

roots3003

Member
I only have one extension on the flod tube, and it came with 2. So if I take that one off, it will only flood like an inch or 2 high.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Filling a flood table with any medium such as hydroton creates problems,if your dead set on filling the flood table with medium then do not use hydroton,it floats all over the fukin place & will float right out of the table if you flood to the top like myself & others,mold is also an issue.

You can use other products such as hydro rock which is made out of clay like hydroton but looks like stone chips & will not float.

Pump flow effects flood height just as much as drain capability,back flow through the pump only comes into play after pump action has stopped.

When you speak of yeild issues two things effect yeild in hydro more than anything else,the 1st is a no brainer,its how big the plant is before flowering,the other is root mass,if plants are grown in a table full of medium such as you want to do the roots will grow past the net pot & flourish.

Some growers use net pots filled with medium & just put the pots in empty tables,this stops most root growth,when roots grow past the pot the light will prune the roots until the canopy thickens enough to block light,by the time that happens root growth is at a crawl,this is why some choose to fill the table with a medium,plants that grow directly in medium with no net pot are hard to stabilize.

I use net pots with empty tables,then i put a plastic top over the table to block light from the root mass,this allows roots to thrive,having a table with no medium also allows the plants to be watered up to every hour on the hour with no over watering.

Place clones in net pots,fill net pot with medium,cover top of flood table with white panda plastic & secure to the table using spring clips, like potato chip bag clips.
Then trace the bottom of a net pot with a marker so you can cut accurate holes for the net pots containing plants.

After you cut all your holes insert the net pots with plants,set timer to flood once an hour for 15 minutes & your good to go,plus you stopped several problems before they started.

Medium filled tables are highly suseptable to mold & powdery mildew as well as increased room humidity,the plastic lid stops that dead,root prune from light & air hitting the roots is also stopped cold,also overall cleanliness of the table interior is increased 10 fold as no dead veg matter gets in the table.

Its the best flood & drain method ive found.
 

roots3003

Member
Thanks man, very helpful. I am not dead set on filling the table with medium, especially if it is not the best method. I do like the way the hyrdroton look though,and since I already bought it I will try to put it to some use for now..anyways, based on your feedback, here is my new plan. Take all the hydroton out. Buy either 4 or 6" net pots(the square regular pots would work just as good right if I put more holes in the bottom??), put my clones that were grown in rockwool cubes into the pots and fill pots with hydroton, sit the pots in the table, and cover with the plastic.

Does this sound like a better idea, pretty close to how you are talking about?

3 more questions...
1) By filling the net/square pots with hydroton, isn't that enought to block out the light from hitting the roots? Or do they grow out the bottom and that is the reason for the plastic? What size pots do you use by the way for veg. and flower?
2) Also, humidity is next to nothing where I live. I used to live in MI myself, I know that's not the case there. So you are saying having a table filled with the hydroton will increase humidity?
3) Do I have the right idea by starting my clones/seeds in 1" rockwool cubes, then moving up to 4 or 6" cubes in veg., befor repotting them into the net pots in flowering? My veg. room would be using a drip system, with the cubes just sitting in the table. If the roots start coming through the bottom of the cubes, is that going to be a problem? I could always use the plastic over this table as well...

Sorry for all the questions, but i'm a noob to hydro, and when I get a chance to soak up some kno how from anyone who has experience, I will take it.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Hey bud,never be sorry for asking questions,helping new growers solve problems is the reason i use this forum ,there are other hydro growers who feel the same too.

Anyhow yes,your on the right track ,the plan you posted sounds very much like how i grow,i will explain my grow better if you need but lets address your questions 1st.

You asked about humidity issues with a table full of medium like hydroton,think of it like this,every time you flood the medium gets soaked,this is what keeps the roots & plant alive,but after the flood the surface area of the medium starts evaporating & eventualy the interior of the medium as well,this moisture is 1st released up into the dense growth of the canopy which increases the chance for powdery mildew all over the entire plant as well as the dreaded grey mold inside the budd,if you get either powdery mildew or bud rott bad enough the whole grow is in jeapordy ,using a cover on the table instead of a medium eleminates any chance of increasing the risk of either issue.

Then the moisture goes into the ambient room air incteasing overall humidity,if your lucky enough to have naturally low rh then its best to keep it low,a level of 20% in bud is better than having a rh thats 60% in bud.

In hydroponics roots are king,plants feed from the root tip,the more root tips & fine hairs comming off the roots the more the plant increases its ability to feed,we want as many roots as possible,roots need dark to grow & any light stops growth cold.

I use 5 inch round net pots but any net pot would work,i like the 5's beacuse they are easy to handle & for my method the small pot size allows me to improvise further,you can use square or round but i wouldnt go any smaller than a 5 inch,this way the heart of the root mass has something fairly large to adhere to creating more stability.

When you fill the net pot with medium & put the plant in the medium roots will start growing into the medium,this locks the plant in place,if the outside of the pot is not blocked from light the roots that are growing within the net pot will automatically prune the growth,stopping any roots from stretching outside the net pot,pruned roots limit the plants ability to feed,as soon as one little root tip hits the light its pruned,you want to avoid this if possible.

You asked about the rockwool cubes,imo you should get away from using any rockwool at all,its an outdated material that suffers several drawbacks like ph & over watering issues,cube compression is another drawback,i stopped using rockwool in favor of sponge plugs,i use root riot brand & they work just as well as rockwool, without any of the negative issues that go with rockwool.

When you transplant you shouldnt use huge cubes,you want as much stability as possible,the larger the cube or sponge the less stability,i get the most stability using the 1 inch plugs,letting the roots stretch out an inch or so before putting them in the net pot,then i make sure to keep the top of the cube very near the top of the pot,when you bury the cube too deep the chance of stem rott increases.

Just remember that root mass means bud mass,do everything you can to block light from hitting roots at all phases of the grow,especially in veg stage because veg stage is when most of the rapid root growth takes place,if i were you i would use flood & drain for veg as well as bud & cover both tables,this way when you put the freshly vegged plants into your bud table your plants will allready have a root mass that extends 12 to 18 inches out of the net pot,root growth slows greatly durring flowering phase.

The rockwool cubes just sitting in the table with no medium will not be harmed at all from roots growing out the bottom of the cube,if it were my grow i would only jump up one block size or no additional blocks at all,a 1 inch block is fine as long as its going into a medium filled net pot when the roots are an inch long, then cover the table before roots overgrow the new cube,roots will be light pruned in the cubes the same as net pots as soon as they see the light & air.

You dont have to transplant either,cover the table,cut snug holes,transplant the 1 inch cubes when roots stick out an inch or longer directly into a 5 inch net pot filled with hydroton,keep rockwool cube near the top of the pot,about an inch down from the top,then insert the net pots in the pre cut holes in the cover,set timer to flood once every hour for 15 minutes,leave flood times at that setting until your in heavy bud,in heavy bud increase flood times to twice an hour with 15 minute flood times durring lights on leaving flood times at one 15 minute flood durring lights out.

The idea of covering the table is not new,most manufacturers sell hard plastic lids for the exact same purpose,when you enclose the table it brings flood & drain more in line with the aeroponic method,the enclosed enviroment retains a fog of nutrient laden moisture accessable to the root tips to feed from,i will never go back to open top flood tables this has worked so well for me.

If you need help installing the plastic i can talk ya through it,installing it isnt that hard its attaching it securely around the sides thats important,i can set a glass of pop on mine without any sag its secured so well using the clips.

This method also takes another issue out of play which is flood times,set it up & its a go.
 

billy4479

Moderator
so i use a 2x4 foot table full of hydroton works fine for me ...just dont flood very high just a inch or two works great and roots can get huge ............or you can cram you plants into little pots and have little roots like some people
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
so i use a 2x4 foot table full of hydroton works fine for me ...just dont flood very high just a inch or two works great and roots can get huge ............or you can cram you plants into little pots and have little roots like some people
I ran my 1st 2x4 tables that way too & it worked for me too,when i jumped up to running 8 seperate 4x8 tables the humidity got out of hand so i had to flip methods,now im damm glad i did,much cleaner,faster growth & larger yeilds,flooding once or twice daily cant compete with 24 feedings every day,the difference in growth isnt small either.
 

roots3003

Member
panhead, I appreciate all the detailed answers and suggestions. I already see what you mean about cleanup. I took the hydroton out of the tray earlier, to prepare to get the net pots and fill them instead of the entire tray. Holy shit man, what a pain in the ass getting them all out without spilling. So yes, I will go with just filling the pots. Saves money this way too, now I won't need to bey anymore hydr. I have rapid rooters from when I did my clones. How about I just clone into those, and go directly from those to the 5 or 6" net pots when the roots are growing out the bottom? Seems alot simpler and cheaper. And I won't have to keep using the rockwool. I haven't started making the veg. table yet. Any particular reason you think ebb and flow would be better there than drip? I didn't think of it until you mentioned it, but I will definitly use some panda plastic over the veg. table as well. You just stretch it really tight and clip it arund the edges?
 

Phillip J Fry

Active Member
I also plan to go from rapid rooter to 5-6" pots in a flood table for veg. Then into 5 gallon bucket DWC/ebb for flower.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
panhead, I appreciate all the detailed answers and suggestions. I already see what you mean about cleanup. I took the hydroton out of the tray earlier, to prepare to get the net pots and fill them instead of the entire tray. Holy shit man, what a pain in the ass getting them all out without spilling. So yes, I will go with just filling the pots. Saves money this way too, now I won't need to bey anymore hydr. I have rapid rooters from when I did my clones. How about I just clone into those, and go directly from those to the 5 or 6" net pots when the roots are growing out the bottom? Seems alot simpler and cheaper. And I won't have to keep using the rockwool. I haven't started making the veg. table yet. Any particular reason you think ebb and flow would be better there than drip? I didn't think of it until you mentioned it, but I will definitly use some panda plastic over the veg. table as well. You just stretch it really tight and clip it arund the edges?
If i went overboard on info its not because i doubt your understanding its just hard to judge peoples diy ability via internet,i figgured it would be easy to understand.

I go from cloning in the root riot plugs directly to the net pots like you propose & it works excellent,my plugs are the same as yours just different names so you'll be fine going straight from clone to pot.

The reasons i reccomended going flood & drain all the way in veg & bud is mainly to simplify things,repetition builds skill,when all tables & phases are on the same type system routine maintainance becomes a snap as does trouble shooting.

Ive got a space in my room thats well light from light thrown from main tables thats too small for another flood table,i threw a dwc system in that area & when i work on the system or refill the rez i allways have to stop & think to make sure im not f-ing up,the flood tables are so familiar im like a robot on them,having one type system makes things more efficient.

Also drip systems are more complicated with more things to go wrong,plugged drip lines ect,plus with one standardized system throughout all equipment is interchangable at a moments notice,also flood & drain is simply superior to drip systems.

Im excited to see you get your tables going,if your in michigan i'd be glad to help with clones or gear,i have a room full of excess hydro gear i help people get set up with,then once they get the grow off the ground they return the equipment or buy new for me,if we are close enough where i can help let me know,im a state certified caregiver so no legal issues.
 

drgreentm

Well-Known Member
ya the rock in the tray worked for me for a while but i hated it so much, the cleanup was stupid especially if your tray has allot of little gulleys for drainage, i would have to sit there picking the rocks from the cracks with a butter knife lol. i switched to 6x6x7 square pots and they worked great for low veg clones, i since moved to using a ebb and grow bucket system and love it but i was running 4 2x4 trays and it was good too, here is some pics, use the pots for sure it will save you so much time and effort in the end.
 

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weednublet

Active Member
Not to hijack your thread or anything mate, but Panhead I've got a question.

If not Hydroton or Rockwool, what should I replace them with, respectively? Specific brand names would be cherished, as well as alternatives if they're not available.
 

roots3003

Member
Panhead, you didn't go overboard. Admittedly, I am a noob to hydro, so you can't go overboard with me, I appreciate all the help.

Man, I am getting really stoked to get this first hydro grow underway. Just got all the equiptment to build my second E & F tray. I don't think I will use the aquarium silicone this time, those rubber gromets should keep it water tight. Now I just need those girls in the flower room to hurry up!!

I see your point about the repitition thing and interchangable parts, and that makes sense so E & F it is. I am not in MI anymore, out here in AZ now. My dad still lives on the West side by Grand Rapids, and has his own little setup. Who knows though, I may end up back in MI in the near future thanks to issues with the ex leaving me up shit creek without a paddle. If I do make it back, we could definitly use help. That's really cool how you help people get started like that.

Dr. Greentm, thanks for the pics and comments. Very nice setup, I think that's pretty much what I am shooting for. Any particular reason you chose black pots over white?

I suppose I will work on the new table now, maybe I will take some pics later just for shits and giggles.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Not to hijack your thread or anything mate, but Panhead I've got a question.

If not Hydroton or Rockwool, what should I replace them with, respectively? Specific brand names would be cherished, as well as alternatives if they're not available.
Hi,the alternatives to using rockwool for starting clones or as a medium are any type of sponge plugs,you will know when you see & feel the products,the sponge plugs are just that,when you inspect & touch them they are made from regular sponge material only black in color,make sure they are 100% sponge as some look alikes are filled with starter mix soil.

The brand i use is called ROOT RIOT,another brand mentioned by the op is RAPID ROOTER,i am sure there other brands as well,if you cant find any then you can substitute using regular household sponges or car washing sponges cut into blocks of the size you need,i use regular sponge material too in another aspect of my grow.

The replacement materials for hydroton are also varied,the name brand i use is called HYDRO ROCK,its made from clay just like hydroton & looks like driveway or road gravel,its random shapes & sizes that lock together nicely & will not float beacuse its much heavier than hydroton ,be forewarned that it is still a dirty product that needs washing just like hydroton.

There is an even better product than what i use & i brain fart when i think of the name, its a lava rock type medium & its very clean unlike clay mediums,its very porus like lava rock & is heavy enough it wont float,my grow shop gave me a 5lb free sample bag & its awesome,i allready have so much hydroton & hydro rock that its not praticle for me to switch or i would in a heart beat,a google search should turn up the name, just remember this product isnt made from clay.
 

drgreentm

Well-Known Member
Dr. Greentm, thanks for the pics and comments. Very nice setup, I think that's pretty much what I am shooting for. Any particular reason you chose black pots over white?
nope no particular reason just what the hydro store had in stock, i have seen them white as well and sure they would work all the same.
 

roots3003

Member
Shit! My 20 gal. reservoirs only flood like 2 inches up the 7" pots I just got before the pump starts sucking air. What size does it take to flood the right amount up these pots in a 2'X4' tray?
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Panhead, are you talking about Pumice? I mix that with my soil for my houseplants.
The product is kinda like pumice only harder & denser,it closely resembles the rock type material that is in the burner well of some propane fired bbq grills.

I have to go to my local hydro shop as soon as a probe i ordered comes in,i will get the name of the product while im there & post it up,it should be in a day or two that my probe comes in.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Shit! My 20 gal. reservoirs only flood like 2 inches up the 7" pots I just got before the pump starts sucking air. What size does it take to flood the right amount up these pots in a 2'X4' tray?
Somethings not right,what are you using for a rez ?

I use small tables to veg for 2 weeks so i have several small 2ft x 4ft tables like yours going,on them i use 22 gallon rubbermaid "totes" for the rez,i can only fill the rez with exactly 20 gallons without them leaking from the factory handels so our water amount & table sizes are equal.

My tables will fill right even with the top,maybe a half inch to 3/4 of an inch from overflowing,this water level is with 32 seperate 5 inch pots in the table.

For your flood level to be so low somethings out of place,im thinking of a few things,is your rez a shallow rez ? Is your pump as flat on the bottom of the rez as it can be ? I lay my pumps on their sides & flat on the bottom.

Another thing im thinking is how much water is actually in your rez,is your rez full to the rim ?

At a 2 inch flood level your about 5 to 7 gallons short of a 4 inch flood,in reality a 2 inch flood will work but i prefer a deep soaking flood.
 
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