Ebb and Flow - Hydroton by itslef?

panhead

Well-Known Member
I kinda thought you were running a factory rez,i dont care for hydro manufacturer rez's for several reasons,the main reason is i prefer a rez to be taller than in is wide,taller rez's allow for more liquid to be pumped,factory rez's are also extremely unfairly priced.

You can get a 45 gallon rubbermaid action packer with wheels & a lid for $20 at home depot & smaller models even cheaper,heavy duty rez's can be bought from quality farm & fleet stores or tsc hardware stores much cheaper too,farm & fleet has rez's made for farmers that are built better & way cheaper too from 20 gallon up to 2,000 gallons.

The rez you have is part of the problem due to the large footprint,the larger footprint means more unuseable water,the small number of pots is another issue,if you keep your current rez you should cover the top with white plastic to stop evaporation & block light & heat.

The rez's for our 4 x 8 tables are burried under the bldgs floor,it keeps the water a constant 68 degrees & blocks all light too.

If you cant change things around just place a few bricks in the table to take up space & raise water level,you could also use any extra hydroton & pots to take up space,tables your size hold 32 of the 5 inch pots & a full flood is better than a partial flood.
 

roots3003

Member
So I returned the 20 and got a 40 gal. Wish I would have read you're last post before I did that, but I think this will work. I tried using a "heavy duty" rubbermaid 20 gal. tote before I even bought that first res., and it bowed so much from the water when it was filled I didn't feel comfortable using it. I didn't see that action packer at my home depot, it sounds like that might have worked. I do still need a second res. though. Do you have any links to any of the res. at those farm and fleet or hardware stores?
I will definitly cover the res. Your underground setup is a great idea. You using like a pole barn or garage or something? Time to go do some work on it...
 

roots3003

Member
1 out of 2 tables is up and running good. 6"X6"x7" pots are being flooded about 4 inches up, which fills the tray to about 1-2 inches from the top. Close but just right i'm hoping. I'm going to be searching for a cheaper alternative for my res. for the 2nd table..I think when I have more time this weekend I will search those sites you mentioned Panhead. I have a couple detail questions for you or anyone if anyone is still interested. For example, after the table floods and drains, a very small aount of water remains in the tray. Should I prop one end up to make the water run down to the draind, if not I will get algea won't I?
 

drgreentm

Well-Known Member
1 out of 2 tables is up and running good. 6"X6"x7" pots are being flooded about 4 inches up, which fills the tray to about 1-2 inches from the top. Close but just right i'm hoping. I'm going to be searching for a cheaper alternative for my res. for the 2nd table..I think when I have more time this weekend I will search those sites you mentioned Panhead. I have a couple detail questions for you or anyone if anyone is still interested. For example, after the table floods and drains, a very small aount of water remains in the tray. Should I prop one end up to make the water run down to the draind, if not I will get algea won't I?
mine always have a tat bit of water when drained and yes it does cause algae until the canopy is thick enough to let less light in the tray. you could also cut the legs on one side of the table slightly to allow more water to drain if it becomes a issue.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
So I returned the 20 and got a 40 gal. Wish I would have read you're last post before I did that, but I think this will work. I tried using a "heavy duty" rubbermaid 20 gal. tote before I even bought that first res., and it bowed so much from the water when it was filled I didn't feel comfortable using it. I didn't see that action packer at my home depot, it sounds like that might have worked. I do still need a second res. though. Do you have any links to any of the res. at those farm and fleet or hardware stores?
I will definitly cover the res. Your underground setup is a great idea. You using like a pole barn or garage or something? Time to go do some work on it...
No links for quality farm and fleet

The tote you bought that bowed out is exactly what i refered to as an action packer,its just another brand name,many growers use those for the rez & bowing is an easy condition to correct.

When you set up the tote for rez duty the return hose can be ran through a small hole drilled in the top of the lid,the pump hose also goes through the top of the lid,then you use a drywall screw in all 4 corners to secure the lid to the unit,this will stop all bowing & no water will get out,once the lids screwed on tight the unit is very sturdy.

If you want access to the inner area holding water without taking the lid off its a simple task,take a sharp razor knife & cut a 3 sided slot leaving the 4th side connected,on the front side of the cut area install a knob for a drawer,this gives you an access door fo ph,add water,work on pumps ect.

The water laying in the bottom is not good if your only flooding once or twice a day,if your flooding 24 times a day like my tables i prefer the water to stay in the flutes of the tray,the hourly floods keep water from sagnating as well as keeping alge from forming,with a covered table the water in the flutes helps create the nutrient fog that feeds the fine root hairs 24/7.

Covered table with hourly floods ,yes the water is a benifit.

Standard table with net pots or hydroton filled with seldom flooding,no the standing water is not a benifit.

My rez's are all underground for geothermal temp control,i own rental properties as well as some commercial bldgs that we rent out,my grow is in one of the commercial bldgs we own,the warehouse was impossible to rent out since the closing of a general motors factory nearby so i put it to use for the med grow.

As long as people own their home putting a rez under their basement floor is still a simple pimple,when you sell the home ya just fill in the hole with fill & repour some concrete,simple as pie.
 

roots3003

Member
I will have to see if a different HD has a 40 gallon tote like that and rig up the lid like you explained. Thanks. I think I understand what you are saying about cutting an access hole in the lid..do you happen to have a pic of your setup so I can see. Then again, if it is underground, that might not be so easy to see or take a pic. I would love to bury mine, but i'm worming on the second floor of my house.

So you start your flooding once the lights come on and do it 24 times each day?
4" flooded up the pot is enough right?
When I have my clones in rapid rooters and thay are in the same tray as my others in veg., how can I fllod the tray without completely submerging the rooters?
Here's another question, and i realize this isn't the right forum for this, but sonce you guys are knowledgable and helpful, why not. I am doing a soil grow right now, but if this relates to hydro that is even better. In my soil grow, i'm using Fox Farms grow big, big bloom, and tiger bloom. On the feeding schedule, it indicates to keep feeding throughout the entire grow. Almost everything I read online says to flush for the last 2 weeks or so. What should I do? And by flushing, that just means only water with plain water right? Are those 3 bottles of Fox Farm good one's to stick with when I move to hydro?

When doing Ebb and Flow, you always want your drain line to bigger than your flood line correct? For instance, use 3/4 inlet, 1" drain. Not 3/4 for both. This makes sense to me, but after I finished the 2nd table last night, I went over to the first one that was set up for me and noticed some things. Both the fittings were 3/4. When i ran the pumps, it looked to me as if the water level was starting to rise above the overflow fitting. Also. instead of the flood and drain fittings being righ next to each other in the lowest part like they are on my 2nd tray, one fitting was in the low spot and another was drilled up on a higher spot about a foot away. So I changed the drain to 1", moved in to be in the low spot next to the flod fitting, and plugged up the old hole where it was. I'm writing all this because I was curious if this table was setup wrong, or if I was just overthinking it and being a perfectionist ;P ?? And yes I am going to call the guy a dumbass if it turns out you are supposed to be using a bigger size for the drain haha.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
There are many ways to set a flood table up properly,for instance i use a 3/4 inch hose from the pump to the table,i install the inlet tube one one side of the table in the well area.

The drain/return hose i drill a hole in the oposite end of the table & use a 1/2 inch hose for the return line,the drain assemble is in the well area as well,all tables are not the same so set up is different in many.

The main goal for set up is to have water comming into the table faster than it drains out to acquire desired flood height,some people use larger pumps that push more volume faster than the drian works on gravity feed but i was taught by my mentor that is not the best method.

Larger pumps create more heat to warm up the water,smaller pumps run longer & it takes nearly the entire 15 minute flood time to reach optimun flood but its still a better method in theory,the smaller pump obviously pumps less water & the fact that it takes the entire 15 minute flood cycle to reach optimum flood level means the pump housing is assured to be submerged under water,protecting from overheating & burning out the pump,also the smaller pumps dont get nowhere near as hot.

In the main grow we use 50 gallon plastic barrels,holes are dug,rock salt is in the bottom of the hole to salt the soil making tree root growth impossible,the barrels are put in the holes leaving 6 inches of barrel above floor level to keep contaimanents out,the holes are backfilled with sand & rock salt to within a foot from the floor & new concrete poured around the barrel sides in a sloping angle to also help keep contaimenets out.

A sump pump is put in the bottom of each barrel for dumping the waste water & connected to pvc plumbing lines,all connections in the lines are done with rubber clamp connectors known as "oateys" vs glue & plastic connectors making drain lines flexible,the lines comming from the sump pump are connected directly to spickets outside the bldg where we pump old nutrient water to the lawn of the bldg,we used to pump directly into the waste/grey water lines of the bldg but we changed it to recycle the water & nutes instead,the bldg we use is a shithole but the lawns kick ass :blsmoke:.

This makes draining the barrels easy as pie,we also added fresh water lines that come within 3 ft of the barrel,then a washing machine hose hangs from the plumbing into the barrell,all barels have lids that clamp on & have a slot cut out so we can remove the lids & get around the plumbing lines,changing all the
drums & refilling takes less than an hour.

This rez system is for the 4 ft x 8 ft tables we flower in.

The pumps we use for the big tables are one size up from what we use on the 2 ft x 4 ft veg tables with the 22 gallon rez,i think the rating is for a 40 gallon rez,the larger pump hose vs smaller drain hose is what regulates voulme in the table.

The FOX FARM nutrients your using are one of the worst nutes on the market right behind ADVANCED NUTRIENTS & the latter being the absolute worst,fox farms nutes are extremely over priced,thier 3 part grow system is lacking in much needed micro nutrients requiring the use of expensive additives,plus fox farm nutes leave the rez a complete mess,they are prone to turning into a scum in systems that are constantly airaited through mass feedings like mine or from air stones,i refuse to use them.

I use general hydroponic 3 part system,aside from dyna gro nutes its the most complete 3 part system on the market,its also much cheaper than other brands,the mixture is nearly ph perfect so you dont use much ph control liquids & the nutes leave the rez free of scum,in late flower i use a bloom enhncer from botanicare called hydroplex,i chose this enhancer over others because it has micronutes as well as the increased p&k values,i reduce the amount of the 3 main gh nutes to make up for the addition of the hydroplex,once you find the max ppm of the strain your growing its best not to go past the max by adding enhancers without making room for them.

Do not follow the fox farms feed chart then flush,when you flush the act of drowning the plant puts the plant in a mild stress,its better to cautiously feed the plants every 2 weeks instead of the constant feeding,no nute burn,no bad soil,no stressed plants from nutr burn & drowning them translates into bigger buds,i grew in soil over 20 years before switching to hydro.

Also flushing & not feeding anymore 2 weeks prior to harvest is an unneeded & assanine pratice,created by nutrient manufacturers who told growers to overfeed the plants to start with,the act of flushing does nothing to improve taste,looks,smell,resin build up ect,its a wives tale with no science behind it & should not be done,unless the grower over fertilized & tainted the soil & thats the only real reason to do something that stresses the plant.

No need to buy expensive hydroponic nutrients for soil,most any off the shelf powder fertilizer will work just as well ,as long as it contains a full range of micro nutes,peters brand,jacks classic,vigaro & even miracle grow will work great,just be sure to read directions then mix the powder at 1/4 of the reccomended dose or less, then feed every 2 weeks & no more.

You can also use the nutrients from your rez when you change rez water,only then fertilize with the used nute water once weekly,this is how my soil plants are fed with great results.
 

roots3003

Member
Man it sounds like you have one hell of a setup. I miss those nice green lawns back in the glove state...sounds like you have even better green than the lawns though ;P Your res. system sounds very impressive. The only part I didn't understand was this:
"Do not follow the fox farms feed chart then flush,when you flush the act of drowning the plant puts the plant in a mild stress,its better to cautiously feed the plants every 2 weeks instead of the constant feeding,no nute burn,no bad soil,no stressed plants from nutr burn & drowning them translates into bigger buds,i grew in soil over 20 years before switching to hydro."
I might just be buzzed, but can you reword that? I appreciate it. I need to know because it's almost that time...
Also, maybe I don't know what flushing is. I though it was just watering the plant with plain water? Is there more to it than that? If not, why would that stress a plant to water it with plain water? I completly undestand what you are saying about the nutes and stuff though. So it kinda sucks ass that i have a few more bottles of Fox Farms to use. I will be sure to use them for the soil grow and get a better brand for the hydro.

So you start your flooding once the lights come on and do it 24 times each day?
4" flooded up the pot is enough right?
When I have my clones in rapid rooters and thay are in the same tray as my others in veg., how can I flood the tray without completely submerging the rooters?
To use the panda film over the tray, do you just put your pots in, drape a piece over them that is slightly larger than the table, and cut holes where you traced the pot sizes, then attach it? Or is there a better way to do it?
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
I forgot to answer two of your questions,i strive to give thorough answers so heres the additional info.

Flood times,since i use no real amounts of medium i flood once every hour,lights on one 15 minute flood per hour,lights off one 15 minute flood per hour,w total of 24 floods per 24 hour period,i keep this schedule all the way up to heavy bud stage which is week 3 of bud stage in my grows.

In heavy bud i increase flood times to two 15 minute floods every hour at half hour intervals durring lights on,this gives me 24 floods durring lights on period in 12/12 lighting schedule,durring lights off of this phase i leave the feedings to the one 15 minute per hour schedule.

In heavy bud i flood 36 times in a 24 hour period,the increased flood times enhanced my yeilds about 10% over feeding once an hour in heavy bud.

The clones in your veg tray wont be hurt from soaked sponges,the sponges wont drown the clone but the nutes in the table might burn the clone or slow growth,its something you need to watch then decide.

You can keep rooted clones in a brownie pan or square cake pan,put an inch of hydroton in the bottom & bury the sponge,put about 1/8 inch of low ppm water in the pan & check daily,you can do this for several weeks if you have too.
 

roots3003

Member
Any advice on how to setup the res. with water and nutes for the first time? Keep in mind I know nothing, ZERO about hydro. All I really know is that here in the desert the water is pretty bad. We get our drinking water from water machines, and I have been using that to water my soil grow. Do I need to do that for this ebb and flow setup or can I just use tap water?
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
If your water isnt fit for drinking & bathing then its surely not fit for hydroponics,your going to need ro or bottled water.

How you set up the rez is up to you just keep the water from going over the table & start from there doing dry runs before plants see the table.

Nutes are dependant on plant size.
 

roots3003

Member
Our water here in the desert tests well enough for us to drink and bath in. But i'm still leary about using it. We've always got our drinking water from the RO machines at the store. I don't want an RO installed under my sink, the one's i've seen are cheap as hell and usually leak and they waste waaay too much water. Not to mention, we have hard water and i'm sure that would clog filters, etc. more often and cost more $$. Right now i'm hauling jugs to the store to get RO water..pain in the ass. What's the best way to test the water out of the tap and how do I know if it will work ok, or as well as RO?
 

DobermanGuy

Well-Known Member
buy a tds (total dissolved solids) meter. They're cheap. My tap is crap at 450ppm so i use a small RO filter set to crush it down to 20 ppm.

*RESURRECTED*
 

mitch9er

Member
No links for quality farm and fleet

The tote you bought that bowed out is exactly what i refered to as an action packer,its just another brand name,many growers use those for the rez & bowing is an easy condition to correct.

When you set up the tote for rez duty the return hose can be ran through a small hole drilled in the top of the lid,the pump hose also goes through the top of the lid,then you use a drywall screw in all 4 corners to secure the lid to the unit,this will stop all bowing & no water will get out,once the lids screwed on tight the unit is very sturdy.

If you want access to the inner area holding water without taking the lid off its a simple task,take a sharp razor knife & cut a 3 sided slot leaving the 4th side connected,on the front side of the cut area install a knob for a drawer,this gives you an access door fo ph,add water,work on pumps ect.

The water laying in the bottom is not good if your only flooding once or twice a day,if your flooding 24 times a day like my tables i prefer the water to stay in the flutes of the tray,the hourly floods keep water from sagnating as well as keeping alge from forming,with a covered table the water in the flutes helps create the nutrient fog that feeds the fine root hairs 24/7.

Covered table with hourly floods ,yes the water is a benifit.

Standard table with net pots or hydroton filled with seldom flooding,no the standing water is not a benifit.

My rez's are all underground for geothermal temp control,i own rental properties as well as some commercial bldgs that we rent out,my grow is in one of the commercial bldgs we own,the warehouse was impossible to rent out since the closing of a general motors factory nearby so i put it to use for the med grow.

As long as people own their home putting a rez under their basement floor is still a simple pimple,when you sell the home ya just fill in the hole with fill & repour some concrete,simple as pie.
hi Panhead, great methods! Do you use low rise 3 3/4" depth trays or the regular 7 inch depth? Does the difference in the volume of gas at root zone between the 2 tray choices matter?
 
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