Prove to you There's a God?

[sen.c]

Authoring a post is not the same as taking responsibility for your assertions. My liking or not liking the post is beside the point of it having no intellectual merit.

Like I said I asserted it, and I stand by it and accept responsibility for all you who it made feel the way you described in your previous post. From an intellectual stand point merit is in the eye of the person reading it. I don't expect you to understand it through your scientific method of thinking, sometimes things just have to be and people have to just accept the fact that there will be things that will never be understood. You know, sometimes I believe that if a person tried hard enough he could actually over analyze something to the point of making it nonexsistent in his own mind.

Ad hominem attack, not surprising. Your belief makes a number of scientific claims. The virgin birth is a claim of biology. Walking on water is a claim of physics. Healing the sick is a claim of physiology. Even prayer suggests a substantial declaration about extra sensory mental communication. Religion makes no attempts to stay outside of science, despite constantly pleading that science leave it outside.

Call it what you will but my belief makes no scientific claims other than what the scientific community wants to call a scientific claim to support their argument. I happen to believe that God is above science and there are many things in everyday life that leave science without an answer.

So again, spreading with certainty the belief of original sin which entails prejudice, guilt, torture, and employs manipulation does not warrant to you any more justification than some words from an old book which gives no evidence whatsoever of being written by anything other than mortals oblivious to any rational sense of how reality operates. This is your idea of accountability?

So what is your point, is the mind and heart of mankind not evil? How else do you explain the atrocities capable of coming out of the human thought process? It had to come from somewhere didn't it? Are you saying there is no such thing as evil?

Explain to me how reality works, you can't because everyone's reality is different from person to person and that is what makes us unique as individuals. Like I said sometimes you need to just be happy in the fact that you exsist and you will not know some things.

What makes you wrong is that you have not given the slightest thought to the validation of your claim, yet hold others to it's standards. Your accusation is inserted into every life by implication, no matter how wholesome and fulfilling that life may be, and creates a dilemma that can only be solved by submitting to one of the most asinine and unsupported ideas in existence.

I hold nobody to anything, I can't make you do anything. If someone asks a question I will answer it my way and you answer it your way.

It would be no more asinine than some of the unsupported ideas you live by and hold as true in science. So again I ask you what makes your truth any better than mine? There are things in mine that can be proven and things that can't and the same is true for your science so what say you. By the way this is not a deflection as you so fondly like to throw out there but a legitimate question.

 

[tyler.durden]

It rains on the just and unjust alike. If you are asking what the Bible says the reason is for than you need to read Genesis. Adam was made according to the Bible in Gods own image and God created a helper for Adam which was Eve at the time because they were created in God's image they were perfect and had dominion over everything. The only thing God told them not to do was take from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Eve was tempted by the surpent and when Adam found her taking of the tree she tempted Adam and he took as well. At that moment, sin entered the world and God told them "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." With that being said Adam and Eve's offspring were born in the image on sin and not in the image of God due to what Adam and Eve did in the garden. Before this happened there was no sickness and man was perfect and created in the image of God and had dominion over all things birds of the air, creatures of the sea, all land dwelling animals even the plants. Once sin entered the world through Adam and Eve breaking the one law that God gave them sickness, death and everything else came upon mankind. God said the wages of sin is death, he did not put an age limit or restriction on it.

I've always been curious about this reasoning: god is omniscient, which means that he knows exactly what is going to happen in the big picture, and knows exactly what each one of us (including himself) is going to do. Which would seem to mean that we have the illusion of free will, but no matter which paths we choose or decisions we make, god knows what those will be ahead of time (or that wouldn't be omniscience). So, he put the tree of knowledge there knowing exactly what would happen, and created Adam and Eve knowing that they'd eat from that tree and condemn mankind. Why purposefully set humanity up like that? Seems cruel at worst, and shortsighted at best...

 

[sen.c]

I have wondered the same thing at times, I can't pretend to understand it either. I just chalk it up to the fact that I have a finite mind and he has an infinite mind and understanding just is not something we are able to comprehend due to that.

I don't know it is kinda like when you are a dad and you teach your children they way he should go and they stray. All I can do is raise my children and teach them right from wrong but in the end it is up to them to choose and there is nothing we can do no matter how much we love them and want the beast for them. Sometimes you want more for someone than they want for themselves I guess.

 

[trichomedome]

Yes plain and simple, as said 1000,s of totaly inocent children die each day, a slow painfull death through starvation,diseases,etc,etc. Need i go on. And you sit there talking shite about reading genisis to understand why this happens. Fate and mans "inhumanity" to man is why it happens. Tcd Got 4 real gods in my attic

 

[sen.c]

You want to know why children in Africa for example die of starvation, man. No other reason than that, man. There is so much aide sent to Africa's starving villages it is ridiculous but what happens? The depravity of man and his own lust for power through control of people through food. Get a grip dude and learn something before you just listen to all these bleeding heasrt liberals on tv you never hear the stories about the guerillas ambushing the aide trucks and stealing all the food for themselves on the news but it happens everyday. Why do little girls die every day of aids in Africa because there belief in the local witch doctor telling them that if they have sex with children it will cure their disease so now not only do innocent little children that are starving get raped then they are given aids on top of it and why? Man.

This has nothing to do with God, it is all man.

 

[tyler.durden]

I have wondered the same thing at times, I can't pretend to understand it either. I just chalk it up to the fact that I have a finite mind and he has an infinite mind and understanding just is not something we are able to comprehend due to that.

I don't know it is kinda like when you are a dad and you teach your children they way he should go and they stray. All I can do is raise my children and teach them right from wrong but in the end it is up to them to choose and there is nothing we can do no matter how much we love them and want the beast for them. Sometimes you want more for someone than they want for themselves I guess.

I understand the parent/child metaphor, I have a young son, too. But it would be like knowing that our children are curious and can't fully comprehend the consequences or their actions, even when we tell them not to do something, and we put within their reach a loaded gun, an open bottle of bleach, and a bear trap. Then we say, 'don't play with those things, you'll die/get hurt!' We know what would happen, our kids would shoot themselves while caught in the bear trap after drinking the bleach It's even worse with the garden of eden story because god KNEW what would happen, so he simply could never have put the tree there in the first place. That is what all us parents do, we don't present dangerous temptation to our children because we love them and don't want them to be hurt. How is it that we know better than god? It's either that, or god meant to damn us from the very beginning because our free will would have nothing to do with it...

 

[sen.c]

Good question, I know alot of people that ponder that as well.

I guess it was part of his plan, I don't know. He said he created us for his own glory but if he created something that had no choice but to love him would it be love or just the fact that something was created that had no choice but to do so.
I know as a person love is the fact that that person chooses of their own free will to give that love to you.

How's that Vanilla Kush by the way? Curious to know, might give it a shot.

 

[olylifter420]

man that is the stupidest thing i have read so far! you got to be really ignorant right?

those kids die thanks to their government taking care of them... what do you expect? that everyone will always be happy and there will never be bad on this planet? there are over 6 billion assholes on this planet and you are complaining about some kids... we need to start taking care of the planet if we plan to stay here longer, not how many kids are dying thanks to their government.

Yes plain and simple, as said 1000,s of totaly inocent children die each day, a slow painfull death through starvation,diseases,etc,etc. Need i go on. And you sit there talking shite about reading genisis to understand why this happens. Fate and mans "inhumanity" to man is why it happens. Tcd Got 4 real gods in my attic

 

[Justin00]

Listening to an Atheist argue is like watching a retard argue with themselves about why ice cream is better then blow-pops. Until he realizes that his opinion is all that matters to him and it matters inversely little to anyone else he will sit there and argue about it with himself all day. The real question we should be asking is: Why is he even arguing about it if he doesn't believe/fear/ect it......... but then again its hard to understand retards..... and atheists. Just ask yourself why do you care if others believe something different, is simply letting people know your belief not enough? Do you think it needs constant justification for you to feel secure and comfortable with it?

And i want to apologize to any atheists who are not self righteous twats for any offence i may have caused. My hostility is only toward the arrogant teenagers who consider there opinions to be facts not open to debate or reason, and feel it is there civic duty to force there opinions upon the community in order to save them form a life of happiness and security that religion often offers to its followers (regardless of the modern religion they do in fact provide that for many). The next part I say subjectively because I understand there are many people of many faiths reading this, religion also may, even if you consider it an outside chance, offer some form of supernatural rewards in this life or after.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Until he realizes that his opinion is all that matters to him and it matters inversely little to anyone else he will sit there and argue about it with himself all day.

Yet, here you are, right on time to make a response because you don't care about an atheists opinion.

The real question we should be asking is: Why is he even arguing about it if he doesn't believe/fear/ect it

What is it about this that's so difficult to understand? You realize 85% of HUMANITY is under the influence of organized religion, right? It doesn't have to be true to impact the planet or our society in a negative way, people simply have to think it's true.

If 6 billion people believed in Santa Clause and it had a similar negative impact, I would be posting the inconsistencies and paradox's involved in its validity too.

... but then again its hard to understand... atheists.

I'm confused. What's so hard to understand about atheism?

Just ask yourself why do you care if others believe something different

Because what someone else might believe might be dangerous to other people. Simply believing it, and worse yet, believing it's a supernatural entity with supernatural abilities that are untestable, don't give it a pass to fact.

Maybe a better way to answer your question is to phrase it a different way and ask you back...

-just ask yourself, why do you care if others believe in Islam?

-just ask yourself, why do you care if others believe in geocentricism?

-just ask yourself, why do you care if others believe in new age, alternative medicines?

-just ask yourself, why do you care if others believe in eugenics?

-just ask yourself, why do you are if others believe in Nazism?

... hopefully you get the point. Some beliefs are in fact very dangerous, most atheists believe a lot of organized religions that most people affiliate themselves with are dangerous. They harm society, the environment, and institute unnecessary divisions among populations. They instill false forms of morality by conditioning populations.

is simply letting people know your belief not enough?

It's not "my belief", it's "reality". It's time for you to accept reality for what it actually is, not for what makes you feel comfortable. This behavior slows progress. Your comfort level isn't my priority, progress is. Solving things like cancer, AIDS, space exploration/colonization, developing viable clean energy sources for the growing population, making sure we can all eat, making sure there is enough clean water, making sure people can read... this is the stuff that is important. Your ancient fairy tale is standing in the way of it.

Do you think it needs constant justification for you to feel secure and comfortable with it?

Oh man, the irony..

Do you know how many times I see something religious on a daily basis?

Who does it sound like needs justification?

Atheists are outspoken against it today because there's no threat of death in America, we have freedom of speech, I personally don't really care if what I have to say offends somebody religious, I always encourage them to counter anything I say, but guess how many times that happens? Very few. What I get in person is what you see in these threads, religious people who can't back anything up with scientific fact, people who don't understand words or know how to use them correctly, people who quote mine and take things out of context... It doesn't take long for an intelligent person to realize these tactics amount to desperation.

 

[Justin00]

I understand the parent/child metaphor, I have a young son, too. But it would be like knowing that our children are curious and can't fully comprehend the consequences or their actions, even when we tell them not to do something, and we put within their reach a loaded gun, an open bottle of bleach, and a bear trap. Then we say, 'don't play with those things, you'll die/get hurt!' We know what would happen, our kids would shoot themselves while caught in the bear trap after drinking the bleach It's even worse with the garden of eden story because god KNEW what would happen, so he simply could never have put the tree there in the first place. That is what all us parents do, we don't present dangerous temptation to our children because we love them and don't want them to be hurt. How is it that we know better than god? It's either that, or god meant to damn us from the very beginning because our free will would have nothing to do with it...

there is a few big parts of what you just typed that you have fully analyzed yet, i'll give you a few hints. in your post you are assuming that you are correct in all your judgments, more so than an all powerful crafter of the universe? you assume that since it dosn't make since to you then it must in fact have faults, either he is wrong or cruel in your example, but by what standards.....yours?

Is free choice of no importance to you? Would anything mean anything if you were not given the ability to make choices? If you came home and found your child with the gun unloaded and place in a case and the bleach taken to the laundry room and left on the shelf and the bear trap disarmed and packaged safely in your closet and your child making there self some lunch..... how would you feel then? =) Is it wrong in your opinion for "God" to give us that chance? I'm just saying that we often look at things from our limited perspective and never even try to see the bigger picture, granted how could we possible expect to understand the full picture as small and insignificant as we are in the universe?

 

[Justin00]

Yet, here you are, right on time to make a response because you don't care about an atheists opinion.



What is it about this that's so difficult to understand? You realize 85% of HUMANITY is under the influence of organized religion, right? It doesn't have to be true to impact the planet or our society in a negative way, people simply have to think it's true.

If 6 billion people believed in Santa Clause and it had a similar negative impact, I would be posting the inconsistencies and paradox's involved in its validity too.



I'm confused. What's so hard to understand about atheism?



Because what someone else might believe might be dangerous to other people. Simply believing it, and worse yet, believing it's a supernatural entity with supernatural abilities that are untestable, don't give it a pass to fact.

Maybe a better way to answer your question is to phrase it a different way and ask you back...

-just ask yourself, why do you care if others believe in Islam?

-just ask yourself, why do you care if others believe in geocentricism?

-just ask yourself, why do you care if others believe in new age, alternative medicines?

-just ask yourself, why do you care if others believe in eugenics?

-just ask yourself, why do you are if others believe in Nazism?

... hopefully you get the point. Some beliefs are in fact very dangerous, most atheists believe a lot of organized religions that most people affiliate themselves with are dangerous. They harm society, the environment, and institute unnecessary divisions among populations. They instill false forms of morality by conditioning populations.



It's not "my belief", it's "reality". It's time for you to accept reality for what it actually is, not for what makes you feel comfortable. This behavior slows progress. Your comfort level isn't my priority, progress is. Solving things like cancer, AIDS, space exploration/colonization, developing viable clean energy sources for the growing population, making sure we can all eat, making sure there is enough clean water, making sure people can read... this is the stuff that is important. Your ancient fairy tale is standing in the way of it.



Oh man, the irony..

Do you know how many times I see something religious on a daily basis?

Who does it sound like needs justification?

Atheists are outspoken against it today because there's no threat of death in America, we have freedom of speech, I personally don't really care if what I have to say offends somebody religious, I always encourage them to counter anything I say, but guess how many times that happens? Very few. What I get in person is what you see in these threads, religious people who can't back anything up with scientific fact, people who don't understand words or know how to use them correctly, people who quote mine and take things out of context... It doesn't take long for an intelligent person to realize these tactics amount to desperation.

i read most of your post but haven't finished it yet, but i want to clarify something first.... you don't think we should have freedom of religion? I am getting a very strong feeling from your post that you are offended by other people being allowed to have any opinion differing from your own dew to fear that it might in some way be forced upon you, yet you want to force your feelings on someone else.....brb work is over ill be back when i get home.

 

[Padawanbater2]

I'd really like to personally commend Hep for being the ONLY religious persons on all of RIU for being man enough to admit he believes what he believes based on faith.

That is so much more respectable than someone trying to constantly prove the unprovable, untestable (as designed by their own faith) claims. It highlights their own ignorance and inexperience.

 

[tyler.durden]

Good question, I know alot of people that ponder that as well.

I guess it was part of his plan, I don't know. He said he created us for his own glory but if he created something that had no choice but to love him would it be love or just the fact that something was created that had no choice but to do so.
I know as a person love is the fact that that person chooses of their own free will to give that love to you.

How's that Vanilla Kush by the way? Curious to know, might give it a shot.

Well, if god created us for his own glory, it would make sense to give us no choice but to love him, then he'd be glorified by all. Upon creating each one of us, he knows whether each one will love him or not, indeed he knows if we'll be an African child born with AIDS and die at 3 and never has the opportunity to learn about him, or whether we'll be a white man in America that will be a multi-millionaire that will live until 100. His omnipotence is why he knows, so why make creatures that he knows won't, or doesn't get the chance to, love him? His omnipotence makes our free will merely our illusion, since our actions are preordained. So, we really have no choice to love him or not...

Vanilla Kush is my favorite everyday smoking weed (22% THC, low CBN %)! I'm almost out from last harvest (shit went like hot cakes), but I've got 8 VK ladies with 3 weeks to go. Also got one HUGE Strawberry Diesel in her own bucket that's almost done with the biggest, densest colas I've ever seen. Hope to pull a little more than 4 ounces of her alone. Cant wait

 

[Padawanbater2]

i read most of your post but haven't finished it yet, but i want to clarify something first.... you don't think we should have freedom of religion? I am getting a very strong feeling from your post that you are offended by other people being allowed to have any opinion differing from your own dew to fear that it might in some way be forced upon you, yet you want to force your feelings on someone else.....brb work is over ill be back when i get home.

I absolutely believe people should have freedom of religion. Existence is not figured out yet, your guess is as good as mine, I invite you (and anyone else willing) to help figure it out together. The tool I offer is science. As established, it's the best method we have for getting to the truth. A better method has not been presented, if you disagree with that, provide one.

I simply want all religious influences kept in private. I shouldn't know your religion unless I ask. Churches shouldn't get special tax stipulations, homosexuality shouldn't be openly oppressed, ignorance of science shouldn't be glorified, etc.

 

[sso]

...while you are still assuming there is a all powerful crafter of the universe

and believing the Words of People that he exists.

lol, and selectively so.

you have never seen any proof, other than the words of people, written or spoken.

nothing that would hold up to any examinations.

Neither side, atheist or religious, can do much else, than go blablabla till they are blue in the face and yet be not a single step closer to proving their case.

 

[sen.c]

Well, if god created us for his own glory, it would make sense to give us no choice but to love him, then he'd be glorified by all. Upon creating each one of us, he knows whether each one will love him or not, indeed he knows if we'll be an African child born with AIDS and die at 3 and never has the opportunity to learn about him, or whether we'll be a white man in America that will be a multi-millionaire that will live until 100. His omnipotence is why he knows, so why make creatures that he knows won't, or doesn't get the chance to, love him? His omnipotence makes our free will merely our illusion, since our actions are preordained. So, we really have no choice to love him or not...

Vanilla Kush is my favorite everyday smoking weed (22% THC, low CBN %)! I'm almost out from last harvest (shit went like hot cakes), but I've got 8 VK ladies with 3 weeks to go. Also got one HUGE Strawberry Diesel in her own bucket that's almost done with the biggest, densest colas I've ever seen. Hope to pull a little more than 4 ounces of her alone. Cant wait

I hear you, if you ever get a chance spark one and read Romans it really is a pretty good book of the Bible. The VK sounds like one I will have try for sure, is it a pretty good producer when topped then scrogged?

 

[sen.c]

I'd really like to personally commend Hep for being the ONLY religious persons on all of RIU for being man enough to admit he believes what he believes based on faith.

I never stated that though.

As established, it's the best method we have for getting to the truth. A better method has not been presented, if you disagree with that, provide one.

Well science has it's valid points no doubt, but there will still be things it will never figure out. When a man diagnosed with terminal cancer so bad that he is given a couple weeks to live
and out of the blue his body that was infested with cancer is all of a sudden gone without ant sign all doctors can do is say i don't know. I would have to call that a miracle.

 

[Heisenberg]

Well, if god created us for his own glory, it would make sense to give us no choice but to love him, then he'd be glorified by all. Upon creating each one of us, he knows whether each one will love him or not, indeed he knows if we'll be an African child born with AIDS and die at 3 and never has the opportunity to learn about him, or whether we'll be a white man in America that will be a multi-millionaire that will live until 100. His omnipotence is why he knows, so why make creatures that he knows won't, or doesn't get the chance to, love him? His omnipotence makes our free will merely our illusion, since our actions are preordained. So, we really have no choice to love him or not...

The answer you will get (and have gotten) is simple, we are not meant to know the mind of god. This is the same thing as saying, be satisfied with ignorance and move on.

It would seem being omniscient and omnipotent at the same time is impossible. If god decides to intervene and save a drowning child, he has always known he would make this choice, being omniscient. How then, could he change his mind and decide not to intervene? If he is all powerful, then he must be able to change his mind, but if he changes his mind then he was wrong about always knowing he would help. Does god then change the past and make so that he always knew he wouldn't help? If so then, being omniscient, he must have always known he would change his mind in the past. So it seems god can change his mind in the past, but not change his mind in the future, since he always knows the future state of his mind. So he can be either omnipotent or omniscient, but not both.

 

[Padawanbater2]

Weel science has it's valid points no doubt, but there will still be things it will never figure out. When a man diagnosed with terminal cancer so bad that he is given a couple weeks to live
and out of the blue his body that was infested with cancer is all of a sudden gone without ant sign all doctors can do is say i don't know. I would have to call that a miracle.

Why do you attribute it to God though? (more specifically, your god)