Did God Create Robots or Was Freewill International?

karri0n

Well-Known Member
In more traditional, polytheistic belief systems, The "Knower" or "seer" and the "wrter" are two different frces or beings. The weavers of fate rite the fate of the gods as well as men. Fate is generally thought of as having some ultimates, but aso being mutable. Essentially, there are certain fixed points, but free will still exists, as the means by which those points are reached is dictated byt the events and actions of the person in question. There are also stories of those who even managed to change their fate alltogether.

In more modern understandings, the "fixed points" of fate will be reached, but they will do so by following the path of least resistance. If someone's fate is to die at the age of 24, and they are prone to drinking and driving, it's more likely their fate will lead to death in a car crash due to drunk driving than, say, being struck by lightning.

Essentially, you only run into this free will problem when your religion assumes an omnipotent and omnisciesent deity.
 

Hepheastus420

Well-Known Member
Exactly. You have the illusion of having the choice of watching TV but if it's predetermined, you can't choose the other option. To you, it just seems like you're making a choice, but in reality it was the only thing you COULD have chose.
Hmm ok, good point :).
I'm gonna watch ancient aliens now.

God is using an invisible force to grab my hand and push the buttons on my remote, lol. Jk I'm being a smartass now. I still do get your point I was just joking.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
In more traditional, polytheistic belief systems, The "Knower" or "seer" and the "wrter" are two different frces or beings. The weavers of fate rite the fate of the gods as well as men. Fate is generally thought of as having some ultimates, but aso being mutable. Essentially, there are certain fixed points, but free will still exists, as the means by which those points are reached is dictated byt the events and actions of the person in question. There are also stories of those who even managed to change their fate alltogether.

In more modern understandings, the "fixed points" of fate will be reached, but they will do so by following the path of least resistance. If someone's fate is to die at the age of 24, and they are prone to drinking and driving, it's more likely their fate will lead to death in a car crash due to drunk driving than, say, being struck by lightning.

Essentially, you only run into this free will problem when your religion assumes an omnipotent and omnisciesent deity.
Free will runs into lots of problems without needing a deity.

You are just a product of your past experiences, which were a product of events that happened before them, and so on and so on. You have no other choice but to be a member of this forum based on the deterministic continuum you (and all of us) belong to. Maybe you joined this forum to get advice, and you needed advice because you started to grow, and you started to grow because you smoke weed, and you smoke weed because of the friends you have, and you have those specific friends because that's where you were born and environmental factors led you to become friends with them. You're friends with them because your parents moved/live there, and you exist because your parents had sex.

La Place's "demon" says that if you could, at the time of the big bang, know all laws in physics, and you knew where all the matter in the universe is, and exactly how it would react - you could know exactly what would happen at every instant in existence. You would know how/when stars and planets would form, when the first bits of primordial soup gave "birth" to life on earth. You could tell what people were thinking because you would know exactly how every atom would react with every other atom in their bodies, and how external factors would react with those atoms.

Think about every decision/action you make, then think about whether or not you would make the same decision/action under the exact same circumstances. You would, because you wouldn't have any other choice.



Let's say you go to the store and buy a coke;

Why did you buy the coke? Because of ads? The Flavour? Limited Selection of flavours? The reason doesn't matter specifically, just that it was the causal reaction that created the desire for coke.



Now, think about this;

If time somehow rewound itself to before you bought the coke, and you nor anyone else had prior knowledge to going backwards in time, would you chose the coke again - or would you decide something else? I dare say you would chose the coke because all of the factors and variables leading to your decision would be identical. Was it a "choice" to pick coke, or was it external and internal stimuli that you have no control over that lead you to pick coke?

That's "free will"; there is only one possible outcome to any decision you make, the one you made!
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
I was under the impression that chaos theory put the Laplace determinism concept to bed. cn
Yeah, I heard that the Demon argument was obsolete. This is something I go back and forth on: it seems that our actions certainly are determined by many, many factors in any given situation, so do we really make a 'choice'? I'm currently thinking that while our choices are certainly determined, chaos theory makes them non-predictable. Neer, any advice on the latest good reads on this subject?
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I heard that the Demon argument was obsolete. This is something I go back and forth on: it seems that our actions certainly are determined by many, many factors in any given situation, so do we really make a 'choice'? I'm currently thinking that while our choices are certainly determined, chaos theory makes them non-predictable. Neer, any advice on the latest good reads on this subject?
Two almost identical systems need to be slightly different for them to start divergence, do they not? The demon wouldn't make "rounding mistakes", all his calculations would be perfect. I wonder if chaos theory would still nullify the idea of a La Placian demon...
 

silasraven

Well-Known Member
some people dont have free will, look at all the colleges look at all the trends, take a look at how these college students go threw life studying and busting their ass and all they are doing it for is to make sure their parents dont shun them or get disappointed when some would be well off enough pulling 3.0 at a community college and still make a good living, no they study twice as hard to go to a big college to have it shown off by the parents and the kid themselves doesnt make even the slightest big deal about it. therefore some dont have free will. now to the other, who do bust there ass for themselves and bust their ass so they can live in mansions. yes free will/ or you could say thats just conformity put it all how you want.
 

Dislexicmidget2021

Well-Known Member
well lets go outside of the concept of intentional design,we as humans think and devise by intention and planning in our meditative sense of mind,thus we create and build in this way,so on a cosmic scale or a magnitude of creation such as the universe,whatever or whomever created it,didnt plan it,didnt design it to happen its that simple, would you believe that it just is?,to believe there is a direction of happening or an order of things coming to be in the way they are is mostly our own projection of conceptual order.It is not free will,it is just being alive and having awareness of choice.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
Two almost identical systems need to be slightly different for them to start divergence, do they not? The demon wouldn't make "rounding mistakes", all his calculations would be perfect. I wonder if chaos theory would still nullify the idea of a La Placian demon...
I don't even think you'd have to bring in chaos theory to obsolete the demon argument, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle would probably do. The demon's prerequisites are knowing the exact position and momentum of each atom in order for it's predictive function to operate, but the uncertainty principle demonstrates that it is not possible to know both position and momentum. If this is the case, our actions are determined but not predictable...
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I think that chaos theory (as i understand it) can still be invoked. If we look at the traditional example, the butterfly's wingbeat deciding if a hurricane will or will not form, we see a trend. In trying to run a hypothetical "reverse deterministic" calculation, the further back in a timeline we go, the smaller and saller deciding inputs become. A few days back, and an atom out of place will lead to a divergent final result. Attempts to reach further back than that will run into the inherent graininess of time and space. "Rounding errors" become unavoidable, since any mechanistic calculation of a deterministic timeline requires an infinitely smooth "classical" substrate for reality. cn
 

The Cryptkeeper

Well-Known Member
I think that chaos theory (as i understand it) can still be invoked. If we look at the traditional example, the butterfly's wingbeat deciding if a hurricane will or will not form, we see a trend. In trying to run a hypothetical "reverse deterministic" calculation, the further back in a timeline we go, the smaller and saller deciding inputs become. A few days back, and an atom out of place will lead to a divergent final result. Attempts to reach further back than that will run into the inherent graininess of time and space. "Rounding errors" become unavoidable, since any mechanistic calculation of a deterministic timeline requires an infinitely smooth "classical" substrate for reality. cn
LOL Are you talking about the butterfly effect?
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Yes I am, not LOL. The butterfly effect illustrates a central principle of chaotic systems evolving in time: sensitive outcome dependence on initial conditions. cn
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
I think that chaos theory (as i understand it) can still be invoked. If we look at the traditional example, the butterfly's wingbeat deciding if a hurricane will or will not form, we see a trend. In trying to run a hypothetical "reverse deterministic" calculation, the further back in a timeline we go, the smaller and saller deciding inputs become. A few days back, and an atom out of place will lead to a divergent final result.
I agree, but I fail to see how the butterfly effect would would pose a problem for Laplace's Demon. The demon would know every position of every piece of matter in existence, as well as all the laws of physics.

The thought experiment infers an intelligence that wouldn't make rounding errors, and to an all knowing super-intelligence the timeline probably would seem infinitely smooth. The demon can literally calculate how every interaction of everything in existence would interact, simultaneously, and instantly.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I'm saying the demon would have to know particle positions and other relevant values to a precision made moot by the graininess of time and space itself. There is no point to specifying these things to the necessary hundreds, thousands etc. of figures after the decimal point. My argument could well be flawed; I'm sort of blue-skying it here. cn cn
 

karri0n

Well-Known Member
I agree, but I fail to see how the butterfly effect would would pose a problem for Laplace's Demon. The demon would know every position of every piece of matter in existence, as well as all the laws of physics.

The thought experiment infers an intelligence that wouldn't make rounding errors, and to an all knowing super-intelligence the timeline probably would seem infinitely smooth. The demon can literally calculate how every interaction of everything in existence would interact, simultaneously, and instantly.
It wouldn't be possible, unless you invoked omniscience, thus allowing the demon to become an "observer" of the entire universe at every moment.. When not being observed, matter and energy break down into probability functions, and quantum fluctuations that seem wildly out of the scope of probability happen in this state on a constant basis. Apply this to the entire universe, and the frequency of these fluctuations becomes immeasuraby large, the result becoming a near infinite amount of times per second.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
It wouldn't be possible, unless you invoked omniscience, thus allowing the demon to become an "observer" of the entire universe at every moment.. When not being observed, matter and energy break down into probability functions, and quantum fluctuations that seem wildly out of the scope of probability happen in this state on a constant basis. Apply this to the entire universe, and the frequency of these fluctuations becomes immeasuraby large, the result becoming a near infinite amount of times per second.
Yes, quantum theory, although incredibly accurate, only gives the probability that 'events' will happen. But in order for La Place's demon to work, you have to assume that he would know all of the laws of the universe, and I think it's fairly certain to say that humans don't know all of the laws of the universe at this point. I think (conjecture) that quantum theory will be explained further. With that being said, (and this only being a thought experiment) I think it's at least worth conceiving that the idea of a unifying theory might be possible.

So, I guess the question would be; If a unifying theory is possible, could La Place's demon work?
 
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