Heard an Interesting POV...

[canndo]

About how they were cutting them down during the depression? I have a house 30 minutes from Big Trees National Forest and the local logging company is probably the largest conservation group around and has been for some time.

That posting of local forestry practices was for the Humbolt logging company.

The trees are in a NATIONAL FOREST, and not subject to corporate greed (hopefully) - so what is your point?

 

[canndo]

Huh?????

You're not too swift are ya?

Not too swift? you are the one with the Huh??? post, not I. Saying that eveyone around you is a part of a "corporation" is the same as saying that everyone around you is a part of government (in the USA anyway). Now what part of that logic escapes you?

 

[canndo]

Where do you draw the line?

Here's a true story -

This middle aged hippie who use to tour with a bunch of the big bands teams up with some of the different band techs and opens a speaker repair shop. The guys are all the best of their craft and business booms with all of the biggest bands wanting their speaker and amps tweaked. The work is so nice that pretty soon bands are demanding complete set-ups. Business increases to the point that the middle aged hippie hires two more of his buddies, demand increases more so he hires two of his buddies kids to run errands, and then one of their friends who's into IT to make a website, and one of his friends to do graphics, and pretty soon there's a receptionist who's the girlfriend of a cone worker, and the daughter of the hippie is doing the accounting.

Now demand is really increasing and the middle aged hippie want's to start helping the environment so he creates a line of hemp cone speakers to help the environment. BOOM! Business skyrockets and he's hiring friends of friends left and right to go to trade shows and preach about the importance of sustainability and hemp blah blah blah, magazines want articles so he's hiring writers and photographers. Pretty soon a huge headphone manufacturer calls and wants miniature hemp cones for headphones so he has to hire another accountant and a lawyer and a certified sound tech for the testing and graphs....

So when should my middle aged hippie friend have stopped? Now he has a corporation...

Stop when you get to the part where the hippie guy dumps excess lead from his soldering operation into the nearby lake because it is cheaper than disposing of it correctly. Stop when he finds that hiring 6 year olds to work 12 hours a day makes financial sense to him and his partners, then we might have a discussion about regulation.

 

[NoDrama]

but the 20 years in jail will happen regardless of the mental anguish. Now ask Kenneth Lay (well, if you could) how he felt about perpetrating his company's antics on the country at large. I think you are getting off the point. What you seem to be saying is that we need only rely upon people's inner moral limitations and we need not have laws to the same effect. I say you are wrong and that consequences I.E. regulations play an important part in an orderly society.

Who is saying anything about getting rid of regulations? No one, what we are saying is that the FEDERAL government needs to take a chill pill and lift some of these job killing, cash bleeding regulations that kill small business and engorge big business on the blood of the average person. Why do we need to fund a FEDERAL agency to oversee education when it is obvious kids in Montana probably need to be taught differently than children from the inner city slums of Detroit. No child left behind? All that did was dumb all the other kids down to the lowest common denominator, or the teachers just passed the dumb kid so they could just unload him on the next teacher, in the end doing the kid a huge disservice by not motivating him enough to get through the coursework so he didn't have to repeat the year over. That's just an example of the federal government regulations fucking shit up, I have an nearly infinite pool of examples to draw from. FEMA fuck-ups alone would fill this forum with a billion pages of text.

States can make their own rules, no need to rely on the Fed to fuck it all up.

 

[Gastanker]

Stop when you get to the part where the hippie guy dumps excess lead from his soldering operation into the nearby lake because it is cheaper than disposing of it correctly. Stop when he finds that hiring 6 year olds to work 12 hours a day makes financial sense to him and his partners, then we might have a discussion about regulation.

So you are only against corporations that do offensive things... Are you against tiny companies that hire 6 year olds and dump lead solder?

Shouldn't you say you are against dumping lead solder and hiring 6 year olds and not that you have a problem with corporations?

 

[NLXSK1]

And the great thing about states making their own rules is that if the citizens, even in the minority think the state creates a stupid rule or law they can move to another state.

It promotes competition in government, something that is rare in any country.

 

[NLXSK1]

Stop when you get to the part where the hippie guy dumps excess lead from his soldering operation into the nearby lake because it is cheaper than disposing of it correctly. Stop when he finds that hiring 6 year olds to work 12 hours a day makes financial sense to him and his partners, then we might have a discussion about regulation.

Where are the 6 year old's parents?

Stop, you left reality waaaaay back there <---

 

[NoDrama]

And the great thing about states making their own rules is that if the citizens, even in the minority think the state creates a stupid rule or law they can move to another state.

It promotes competition in government, something that is rare in any country.

Competition makes everything better, when you have a dominant and ultra powerful Federal government that stifles competition you get something like the latest test scores of US children vs Chinese Communist children. When you have no competition you have stagnation and eventual failure and collapse.

Ohio allows pollution of its rivers? The state of Kentucky can sue the state of Ohio, NOW is the time for the FEDERAL government to step in and arbitrate the whole thing. Other wise the Fed can fuck off and sit in the corner minding its own business.

 

[canndo]

Who is saying anything about getting rid of regulations? No one, what we are saying is that the FEDERAL government needs to take a chill pill and lift some of these job killing, cash bleeding regulations that kill small business and engorge big business on the blood of the average person. Why do we need to fund a FEDERAL agency to oversee education when it is obvious kids in Montana probably need to be taught differently than children from the inner city slums of Detroit. No child left behind? All that did was dumb all the other kids down to the lowest common denominator, or the teachers just passed the dumb kid so they could just unload him on the next teacher, in the end doing the kid a huge disservice by not motivating him enough to get through the coursework so he didn't have to repeat the year over. That's just an example of the federal government regulations fucking shit up, I have an nearly infinite pool of examples to draw from. FEMA fuck-ups alone would fill this forum with a billion pages of text.

States can make their own rules, no need to rely on the Fed to fuck it all up.

I won't argue with you on education, we likely agree. I will say that no state can regulate interstate and even multi country corporations. Furthermore, when it comes to EPA sorts of regulations, the air and water tends to cross state lines and the Commerce clause does in this case apply handily.

 

[NoDrama]

Where are the 6 year old's parents?

Stop, you left reality waaaaay back there <---

Thats how some people justify things, by finding the most egregious and singular example and then making illogical appeals because of that incident. But as it has already been conceded, the governments regulations do not always regulate what they intend and in some cases have zero effect on legislation of morality. Government regulations do not always regulate, sometimes they make the whole situation much worse.

 

[canndo]

So you are only against corporations that do offensive things... Are you against tiny companies that hire 6 year olds and dump lead solder?

Shouldn't you say you are against dumping lead solder and hiring 6 year olds and not that you have a problem with corporations?

It is far more likely that a coporation that dumps 7 tons of lead solder a year will be offensive toward the commons than the occasional hobbiest in his basement.

 

[canndo]

And the great thing about states making their own rules is that if the citizens, even in the minority think the state creates a stupid rule or law they can move to another state.

It promotes competition in government, something that is rare in any country.

Except when the river the solder is dumped runs through three or four states.

 

[canndo]

Where are the 6 year old's parents?

Stop, you left reality waaaaay back there <---

Who cares where they are? They are crack heads or tweekers.

 

[NoDrama]

I won't argue with you on education, we likely agree. I will say that no state can regulate interstate and even multi country corporations. Furthermore, when it comes to EPA sorts of regulations, the air and water tends to cross state lines and the Commerce clause does in this case apply handily.

Sure they can. JP Morgan does business in your state with some of your citizens? And then it steals from some of those same citizens? The States attorney of that state has the authority to do something, but they can't do it currently because the Fed has jurisdiction, but the Federal government just sits on its hands while the big corporations screw all of us. All the foxes are guarding the henhouses and all the justice system is composed of foxes, all the detectives are foxes and all the regulators are foxes. The only chickens are the ones being served at the fox dinners.

 

[Gastanker]

It is far more likely that a coporation that dumps 7 tons of lead solder a year will be offensive toward the commons than the occasional hobbiest in his basement.

Seriously? The hobbyist has no incentive not to dump whereas the corporation can actually profit from recycling 7 tons of lead solder. Who is more likely to dump, the person that has no likely hood of being caught and no incentive not to dump, or the corporation that can profit from recycling the material, get a tax write off for recycling the material, and can market themselves as being green versus being heavily heavily fined for illegally dumping?

Do you really think this is a common occurrence? Watched a bit too much Erin Brockovich?

 

[canndo]

Thats how some people justify things, by finding the most egregious and singular example and then making illogical appeals because of that incident. But as it has already been conceded, the governments regulations do not always regulate what they intend and in some cases have zero effect on legislation of morality. Government regulations do not always regulate, sometimes they make the whole situation much worse.

You are correct, regulations don't always work as intended, but compare a quake in haiti to one in San Francisco. the difference in damage was due to regulations (local I'll grant you). Tell the dead in BhoPal that their disaster was "singular".

 

[canndo]

Seriously? The hobbyist has no incentive not to dump whereas the corporation can actually profit from recycling 7 tons of lead solder. Who is more likely to dump, the person that has no likely hood of being caught and no incentive not to dump, or the corporation that can profit from recycling the material, get a tax write off for recycling the material, and can market themselves as being green versus being heavily heavily fined for illegally dumping?

Do you really think this is a common occurrence? Watched a bit too much Erin Brockovich?

You presume the company will profit from recycling, I presume it has figured that it saves or makes money from dumping. Check out hexavalent chromium, check out love canal, these are real occurances that happened in a free market.

 

[NoDrama]

Except when the river the solder is dumped runs through three or four states.

most solder for electronics and electrical stuff is too expensive to throw away because it contains silver. Most of it is also dense and would not float down a river but instead would sink to the bottom. The kind of solder used in the electronics industry isn't considered a pollutant since it is silver and tin, and both those metals, their oxides and salts having ever caused any kind of harm is nearly unknown. people ingest silver for its antimicrobial qualities and then wear the shit as jewelry all their lives. Find some other bandwagon to jump on other than solder. Perhaps the hippy gets into the Nuclear power field and starts dumping his nuclear waste in the neighbors backyard???? Now your argument might hold some water, because we all know how much people who hold the land and natural resources so dear to themselves really just want o be plluters and hire 18 month old babies to work in the salt mines 20 hours a day without bathroom breaks and no food or water. Happens all too often.

 

[canndo]

Sure they can. JP Morgan does business in your state with some of your citizens? And then it steals from some of those same citizens? The States attorney of that state has the authority to do something, but they can't do it currently because the Fed has jurisdiction, but the Federal government just sits on its hands while the big corporations screw all of us. All the foxes are guarding the henhouses and all the justice system is composed of foxes, all the detectives are foxes and all the regulators are foxes. The only chickens are the ones being served at the fox dinners.

No no, we have a company dumping lead (or now chromium) into a river, two states down, a state that does not have this particular company in its border is encountering poison in its river. What you got NoDrama?

 

[Gastanker]

Canndo, how many big bad US corporations do you think are out there? And how much do you think these corporations gross/profit?

No no, we have a company dumping lead (or now chromium) into a river, two states down, a state that does not have this particular company in its border is encountering poison in its river. What you got NoDrama?

The EPA has confirmed this and is doing nothing about it?