New Led Or Not ?

[maxpesh]

No, not trying to be negative....Sorry if you feel that way. Just trying to pick your brain(maybe a little to excited). Haven't grown with led yet(so not ripped off), and i'm mainly a CMH grower indoors. Current regulated power supply is what I "suggested" to use due to the fact that they adjust the "current" appropriately if an led burns out and won't overdrive the leds that are still lit, causing premature dimming. Also IMO white leds are a filler for a unbalanced light spectrum, if you use a large percentage of them your basically copying HID lighting (non tailored) by pushing huge lumen output with low par absorption.
If your serious about using only top bin leds in your panel and for the price you suggested, I'll be interested in buying one (seriously). Till then I will restate what i said previously ^^^ " I'm excited to see what you come up with....and wish you much success".

Peace...

ps: when I mean "top bin" i'm talking about cree/bridgelux/osram/luxem....not epistar/optotech/other crappy asian leds...

Thank you, most of the board is Cree and Bridgelux. To pass you towards my way of thinking outside of the box with LED. Look to evolution. Now look at Nasa findings (Lettuce) ? Now look at blues and reds and look at the way all the led companies have designed around those findings (alga = 2 cell thick layer in a petri dish). Now look to the latest findings from 2010 about stomata action and the processes that REALLY drive it (it's actually on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuwAtfBk6NI&list=FLYph8SykuuCMyqTzr1NTntA&index=1&feature=plpp_video). Now look to why LED companies say HID is only 15% efficient because that is one of the biggest lies ever, photosynthesis is an important process but alas it is only one of many going on. Finally look at the Evidence everywhere on the internet that the current LED's do not grow anywhere near HPS for flowering and that is a fact.

Best wishes for the new year

 

[maxpesh]

I've been following your thread from the start and think you may be on to something Max.
For me and I'm sure many other growers, I could care less how much your diodes cost, where you bought them or what your board looks like. If your 8 band 260 watt LED lights can produce big dense colas comparable to or close to a 600 watt HPS then your product will be at the very top of the grow light food chain and will speak for itself.

Personally, I hope you hit it out of the park my friend, we can all benefit the rewards of more cost efficient lighting, good luck for all of us!

Many many thanks for your positivity. The light will speak for itself in the first grow and then I will be able to move forward, rest assured though, if it does not, I will not put it on the market because I am an honest person and I would not do bad to another person because I wouldn't like it done to me. Fuck the greed !

Peace bro and have a great new year, and that goes for all the peeps on here

 

[maxpesh]

Hi PSUAGRO. Just a copy and paste from a small fraction of my research, it debunks all the led lights so called research and make you think, here it is

While one can manipulate pigment concentration in vitro, living systems present special challenges with respect to optical transparency. Often the photoreceptor is not close to the irradiated surface; the investigator may not even know where it is, and is unlikely to be able to control its concentration. In addition, cells and tissues may be physically thick, and thick samples present the same problems as concentrated samples described above, changing absorptance and action. Compare the absorptance spectra of isolated photosynthetic pigments, disrupted chloroplasts, whole chloroplasts, and whole leaves . Light scattering, and hence pathlength, increases with increasing level of organization, and the absorptance spectrum flattens. One can see the resultant effect of structural organization on action spectra by comparing an action spectrum for photosynthesis in a green alga with that for a leaf . The algal specimen is thin; green photons, which are not absorbed strongly by chlorophyll and carotenoids, pass through the thallus and out the other side without being absorbed. Absorptance, and hence action, is low for green light. In contrast, in the leaf, red and blue light are mostly absorbed in the first layer of photosynthetic cells, but green light can penetrate into the leaf interior, gaining chances to be absorbed as it travels a longer pathlength with multiple reflections at cell wall/air interfaces. Green light penetrates further into the leaf, but little escapes. The photosynthetic action spectrum for a leaf thus shows much more action in the green region of the spectrum than the corresponding action spectrum for an alga.



One of the reasons why the 15% efficiency for HPS is a load of bollocks

 

[PSUAGRO.]

Thank you, most of the board is Cree and Bridgelux. To pass you towards my way of thinking outside of the box with LED. Look to evolution. Now look at Nasa findings (Lettuce) ? Now look at blues and reds and look at the way all the led companies have designed around those findings (alga = 2 cell thick layer in a petri dish). Now look to the latest findings from 2010 about stomata action and the processes that REALLY drive it (it's actually on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuwAtfBk6NI&list=FLYph8SykuuCMyqTzr1NTntA&index=1&feature=plpp_video). Now look to why LED companies say HID is only 15% efficient because that is one of the biggest lies ever, photosynthesis is an important process but alas it is only one of many going on. Finally look at the Evidence everywhere on the internet that the current LED's do not grow anywhere near HPS for flowering and that is a fact.

Best wishes for the new year

Yeah I agree with you...I may have foolishly categorized HID with a broad brush stroke. I know that their not as inefficient as many led enthusiast claim(i would have switched to led long ago if I believed that) and that why i still use them. In school(granted its been some time) all of our lab work (ag bs.) we always used hid and T8 for our studies, most still use them. Some of my professors still believe that T8 are more efficient than T5(due to the new electric ballasts used and T5 temp/lumen issues/long-winded explanation); but it goes against everything you would learn on RIU....As you said led are pushing 170lm/w and are going to hit over 200lm/w at the consumer level by feb-mar. But both techs are evolving and the winner is not clear for us growers and enthusiasts. The same companies that are pushing led tech into the future are also heavily invested in the current HID market; so its not in their best interest to bring it to fruition (yet!). But as energy costs keep rising and demand asks for it they will have to deliver a cost effective lighting source to the general (non mj) community. Your reference to Quantum interjection and its role on light absorption is just reiterating the fact that Sunlight effect(role) on photosynthesis has yet to be fully understood......

Best wishes to you also in the NEW YEAR...

 

[maxpesh]

Many thanks, you seem like a good person. Like I said before, the fixture has to perform as I expect or I will simply not release it, I only want people to realise that I am not going to be like all the other companies out there, it has to be perfect as I hate style over content.

 

[beenthere]

Many many thanks for your positivity. The light will speak for itself in the first grow and then I will be able to move forward, rest assured though, if it does not, I will not put it on the market because I am an honest person and I would not do bad to another person because I wouldn't like it done to me. Fuck the greed !

Peace bro and have a great new year, and that goes for all the peeps on here

Same to you bro.

In my opinion, LED's got a bad rap on the industry by making unrealistic and sometimes false claims.

I was given some LED grow lights from a company in the Bay Area back in 2008, I won't name the manufacture but I will tell you they were 90 watt lights.
They gave me 2 panels and suggested I use an 8 ft2 sog footprint along with a few other instructions. The first red flag was; I was asked not to publish the grow without their approval, which BTW I honored.
Long story short, as promised I documented the grow with digital pics and forwarded the pics and comments by email every three days. End result was; the lights produced decent buds but they were lacking in size and density. A week after the completed grow they emailed me saying they would get back to me with a different protocol, I've yet to hear back from them.

FYI, I did another grow (independent) and downsized the footprint to 30"x30" and dropped the light from 20" to 16" and the plants responded accordingly, they didn't match the outcome of an HPS but were much better.
With that said, I'm convinced there is definitely a means to improving LED lighting, perhaps you are that means.

I truly hope you succeed on your first grow, but keep in mind that progress sometimes requires small failures and patience is a virtue.
Good luck and keep um hanging bro.

 

[PetFlora]

PSUAGRO: Do you know what GIGO means? The real reason why many (not all) LEDs have produced less than excellent results when growing mj (vegetables and flowers n problem) is because they are fixed spectrally and sold to the mj community as a one light for both veg and flower. Experienced growers know this is bullocks, but millions of growers don't. About 3 years ago, I had not grown in 4-5 years. I never had good results with my 400 MH/HPS, so I was ripe to jump on the UFO 90 bandwagon ($370- ouch). Later I learned I would need to supplement with cool white (~6500K). The good news is it is still in action in my small closet for clones and seedlings- supplemented of course.

Add to the typical imbalanced R/B mix (again for mj)+ the lack of ~500nm bulbs (green) which most LED mfgs have no clue about, therefor those LEDs do not hold up against either HID, or HO T5 florescents (when using aquarium bulbs that account for 500nms).

I have offered suggestions here on what needs to be done to create a one LED fixture to do all, but the additional circuits & parts may be prohibitive to keep within a lower price point. However, the increased value is worth more money. Bottom line, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's not that LEDs DON'T work as well, most are SIMPLY not spectrally balanced, producing light airy buds.

 

[PSUAGRO.]

PSUAGRO: Do you know what GIGO means? The real reason why many (not all) LEDs have produced less than excellent results when growing mj (vegetables and flowers n problem) is because they are fixed spectrally and sold to the mj community as a one light for both veg and flower. Experienced growers know this is bullocks, but millions of growers don't. About 3 years ago, I had not grown in 4-5 years. I never had good results with my 400 MH/HPS, so I was ripe to jump on the UFO 90 bandwagon ($370- ouch). Later I learned I would need to supplement with cool white (~6500K). The good news is it is still in action in my small closet for clones and seedlings- supplemented of course.

Add to the typical imbalanced R/B mix (again for mj)+ the lack of ~500nm bulbs (green) which most LED mfgs have no clue about, therefor those LEDs do not hold up against either HID, or HO T5 florescents (when using aquarium bulbs that account for 500nms).

I have offered suggestions here on what needs to be done to create a one LED fixture to do all, but the additional circuits & parts may be prohibitive to keep within a lower price point. However, the increased value is worth more money. Bottom line, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's not that LEDs DON'T work as well, most are SIMPLY not spectrally balanced, producing light airy buds.

Yes very valid points, and you have done your research....no one is doubting this..
People have been growing with aquarium bulbs for years.....Professor took it to another level though(brilliant)..
May I ask why you didn't get good results with a 400wHPS??? heat????

be safe and happy growing...

 

[merkzilla]

PSUAGRO: Do you know what GIGO means? The real reason why many (not all) LEDs have produced less than excellent results when growing mj (vegetables and flowers n problem) is because they are fixed spectrally and sold to the mj community as a one light for both veg and flower. Experienced growers know this is bullocks, but millions of growers don't. About 3 years ago, I had not grown in 4-5 years. I never had good results with my 400 MH/HPS, so I was ripe to jump on the UFO 90 bandwagon ($370- ouch). Later I learned I would need to supplement with cool white (~6500K). The good news is it is still in action in my small closet for clones and seedlings- supplemented of course.

Add to the typical imbalanced R/B mix (again for mj)+ the lack of ~500nm bulbs (green) which most LED mfgs have no clue about, therefor those LEDs do not hold up against either HID, or HO T5 florescents (when using aquarium bulbs that account for 500nms).

I have offered suggestions here on what needs to be done to create a one LED fixture to do all, but the additional circuits & parts may be prohibitive to keep within a lower price point. However, the increased value is worth more money. Bottom line, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's not that LEDs DON'T work as well, most are SIMPLY not spectrally balanced, producing light airy buds.

Interesting point with the 500nm, any chance you can provide further reading on this? I'd always heard green light was unusable in school (actually had a few test questions on it).

 

[PetFlora]

I don't have anything saved, but solid horticulture studies support it. Basically it acts like a supercharger for chlorophyll A & B. If you want to go through the first ~ 10 or so pages of Pr0fesseurs LED Without LEDs My First T 5 Grow you will find it

 

[PetFlora]

Yes very valid points, and you have done your research....no one is doubting this..
People have been growing with aquarium bulbs for years.....Professor took it to another level though(brilliant)..
May I ask why you didn't get good results with a 400wHPS??? heat????

be safe and happy growing...

I have no clue, and I replaced the bulbs regularly, too. And damn the transformer was LOUD

 

[maxpesh]

I have no clue, and I replaced the bulbs regularly, too. And damn the transformer was LOUD

If the transformer was really loud then the coil plates were loose, if too loose then that would have been a big problem transforming the voltages and you may have been running the bulb at a greatly reduced current. But normally in a 4ft x 4ft area with 400watts hps you should pull at the very least 250 grams of dried product. I'd very much like to know your growing techniques and maybe myself and the other guys on here could offer a few tips ?

 

[beenthere]

I don't have anything saved, but solid horticulture studies support it. Basically it acts like a supercharger for chlorophyll A & B. If you want to go through the first ~ 10 or so pages of Pr0fesseurs LED Without LEDs My First T 5 Grow you will find it

I was experimenting with supplemental lighting for LED's a couple of years ago and came across this Oxford Journal.
This is obviously not the specific information you were referring to but it does support the fact that green light (550nm) was found to have absorbance percentages between 50% and 90% and that green light penetrated further into the leaf structure than red or blue light.


"Green Light Drives Leaf Photosynthesis More Efficiently than Red Light in Strong White Light: Revisiting the Enigmatic Question of Why Leaves are Green." http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/4/684.full

 

[beenthere]

Interesting point with the 500nm, any chance you can provide further reading on this? I'd always heard green light was unusable in school (actually had a few test questions on it).

http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/4/684.full

You may find this quite interesting, green light (550nm) penetrates further into the leaf structure than red or blue light and the values of absorptance at can range from 50% in lettuce to 90% in broad leaved trees.

 

[PetFlora]

Where were you when I needed you? lol

I gave it away several years ago. Now using 48" HO T5s (432w) + aquarium bulbs. More coverage, control and a lot less heat

 

[merkzilla]

That's awesome, thanks beenthere and petflora.

 

[beenthere]

Where were you when I needed you? lol

I gave it away several years ago. Now using 48" HO T5s (432w) + aquarium bulbs. More coverage, control and a lot less heat

I'm with ya on the heat bro, especially in the summer. I want to start phasing out my HPS's. Still doing a little more research but induction lighting is looking it might fit my needs
Besides the heat, my electric bill is killing me, 33 cents a kwh.

Have a safe and Happy New Year!
Keep um hanging.

That's awesome, thanks beenthere and petflora.

Glad to be a help merkzilla, I think i spent more time referencing than reading lol, but it was very interesting.

Have a safe and Happy New Year!
Keep um hanging.

 

[PetFlora]

I am not sold on Induction as a sole source of light. Only fixtures (HO T5) that let ME swap out bulbs as needed during veg/flower are acceptable to max out yield. Also, I do not believe it will cover the area they say. With T5s the fixture size is the coverage

 

[beenthere]

I am not sold on Induction as a sole source of light. Only fixtures (HO T5) that let ME swap out bulbs as needed during veg/flower are acceptable to max out yield. Also, I do not believe it will cover the area they say. With T5s the fixture size is the coverage

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you Pet, I'm fortunate enough to have a buddy that's using a couple of 400 watt induction lights (without supplemental red) , they are definitely out performing the 600 watt hps's veg to finish.
His first run under these lights produced a quite impressive pre98 sog, the only thing holding me back is the initial investment, but I'm pretty sure I'll pull the trigger real soon.
Can't wait for Max's results on his new LED.

Keep um hanging.

 

[PetFlora]

Found this on another site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbU_NTxorFk

my first thought : If you can control the pulse, so that during veg the blues pulse twice as often, and likewise the red during flower, this could be amazing.