Israel's cost to the American people estimated to be a staggering $2 trillion

fenderburn84

Well-Known Member
Here's your answer. Now sit down this might shock you. All of that land in question for the colonies is Israeli land. We can do as we please with it. When you fight a war as the Arab nations did, and you lose land in said war, as the arabs did, that does not become the losers land again because aw shucks we lost. Those whiney assed Palestinians have no idea how well they have it. They have a country that they hate, that they attack, feed their children. How about the dome of the rock? Would the Jewish state allow a mousque on our holiest of sites if we were these monsters? And what does this have to with nazis? You beought ut up just wondering why. Fact is you really don't have a argument as you have no idea what your talking about. Not to be rude, but this is not Germany the USA or even Canada. You can't see what its about by watching propaganda from either side.
 

fenderburn84

Well-Known Member
'This from the German.' Whoa, snappy comeback there! Couple of points: in the postwar period Germany has been a stalwart friend of the Israeli colonial project, supporting it with billions of euros. Feel free to research that. They have a bit of a guilt complex over the war. They should get over it already. I ain't dissing the Holocaust, just observing that they're incapable of objective judgement under the circumstances.

I'm Canadian by the way, not German so you'll have to come up with a different 'insult'. We did turn that boatload of Jewish refugees away in the second world war. You could maybe work that up into something.

Its nice that you can list all these various attacks on the Israeli civilian population. You're strangely silent on the far more numerous Israeli killings of Palestinian CIVILIANS. You probably have no idea. You've probably never thought to check - just swallowed the hasbara whole.

I haven't seen any Palestinian rockets. I have seen some of the millions of cluster bomblets Israel scattered across southern Lebanon at the end of their last invasion of their northern neighbour. More evidence of the trouble the IDF takes to avoid civilian casualties. I also watched a lot of clips of Apache gunships firing phosphorus into populated areas and civilians fleeing in terror. I note that the Palestinians have no army or air force with which to defend themselves.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-commander-we-fired-more-than-a-million-cluster-bombs-in-lebanon-1.197099

As for all this talk of 'Palestinian aggression' : the fourth largest army in the world, armed Israeli settlers actively colonizing newly seized Palestinian territory - and you want to talk about Palestinian aggression?

View attachment 1983853
Perhaps you missed this the first time I posted it. Its sort of a map of Palestinian aggression. Yep: they sure seem pretty aggressive to me!

And finally: much of the criticism of Palestinian tactics studiously avoids dealing with the fact that they're up against a large modern army, hopelessly outgunned and have to come up with different and devious guerilla strategies to challenge the ongoing THEFT OF PALESTINIAN LAND. (see map above). I'm sure they'd like to go toe to toe with the IDF, but until they're allowed an army to defend themselves with, it would be like a Zulu army of spearthrowers against Maxim guns. Pretty fucking ugly.

The violence would stop IN AN INSTANT if Israel abandoned its colonizing activities. I'll say that again. Its important.

The violence, which many in the west project upon the indigenous Arabs, would cease immediately if the Israelis stopped the relentless efforts to force them from their ancestral lands. THAT and THAT alone is the source of the violence. While the logic of this perspective is inescapable, I expect you will struggle with it for some time yet. But it provides the best fit with an evenhanded appraisal of the conflict.

The fact is the Israeli state, with its vastly superior military, has never once paused in its colonization of Palestinian land, though Palestinian calls for a halt to all such activities have been consistent from the start. The ugly reality is that the Israeli state consistently PROVOKES violence - the historical record will bear me out here so spare me more hasbara about Palestinian violation of ceasefires etc - because this provides it with the cover it needs to maintain its expansion. The Palestinians are attacking us! they shout as they roll over their olive groves, blow up a few more homes, build another wall that cuts off a village, takes another orchard, destroys another well.
Copy and paste much? It would be a whole lot more sensible to write your own opinions. Others have good ones, true. But it really kills any credibility you may have had, wich really isn't much.
 

Merowe

Well-Known Member
as i have states, the first thing i think of when i think of israel are hare krishnas, jehova's witnesses, and mormons.



i had no idea that there was simply a wrong side and a right one, end of story. however, if i am on the wrong side, and i may very well be, i don't mind. i am often wrong. life goes on.

the way i see it, israel would have no need to be militant in the least if their neighbors didn't make it their stated goal to wipe them off the face of the earth. that kind of thing would put me at attention as well.
Ah, the ever-gracious UncleBuck! A breath of fresh air.

We hear an awful lot about this pernicious 'stated goal' but I think you'll find if you look into it that it has no basis in fact. I'd be interested if you could back that up. Unless you're referring to some earlier exchanges, say back in the time of Arafat.

Meanwhile, a glance at the map - remember that map? The one noone will talk about? - confirms that, in fact, if anyone is intent on wiping someone off the face of the map, it is Israel. You may recall the Israeli state's close relations with apartheid South Africa. You might reflect on what it was they had in common. It seems the relationship did not survive the overthrow of the white overlords.

Perhaps though you refer to the misquote often attributed to Ahmedinajad of Iran - which is not a neighbour of Israel. It seems the translation from the original - what, Pharsee? - was tweaked and the meaning perverted to suit western propaganda needs.

But as I keep saying, the principle reason for Israel's militancy is to keep its neighbours at bay while it finishes scooping up the last bits of Palestine. Then the Palestinians can all get nice jobs on Israeli construction sites!
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Ah, the ever-gracious UncleBuck! A breath of fresh air.
i highly resent being called gracious :)

Perhaps though you refer to the misquote often attributed to Ahmedinajad of Iran - which is not a neighbour of Israel.
i was aware that palestine elected hamas, whose stated goal it is to wipe israel off the face of the earth. i had to check with my wife on that one, i could once again be wrong.

but yeah, if my neighbor made it their stated goal to burn my house down with my wife and i inside, you can bet i'd be at attention.
 

NLXSK1

Well-Known Member
The day Hamas says they want peace with Israel is the day I think about taking anything you write seriously again...
 

Merowe

Well-Known Member
i highly resent being called gracious :)



i was aware that palestine elected hamas, whose stated goal it is to wipe israel off the face of the earth. i had to check with my wife on that one, i could once again be wrong.

but yeah, if my neighbor made it their stated goal to burn my house down with my wife and i inside, you can bet i'd be at attention.
From wikipedia:

"|In July 2009, Khaled Meshal, Hamas's Damascus-based political bureau chief, said the organization was willing to cooperate with "a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict which included a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders," provided that Palestinian refugees hold the right to return to Israel and that East Jerusalem be the new nation's capital."

Make of that what you will.

It is disingenous - to put it politely - to criticize Gazans for electing a hardline, extremist Islamicist party to power when you consider that Israel had effectively neutralized the traditional Palestinian leadership, the PLO. Some here may recall the wikileaked revelation of just how far the PLO were prepared to go in terms of concessions to Israel in pursuit of a peaceful settlement and how damaging that was to their support. Israel at this time, in the form of Netanyahu, blew them off. They had lots of nice weapons. They didn't need to deal. Nor did they, eventually openly making war on Arafat - remember his final, pathetic days trapped by Israeli tanks within his own compound, where he died, somewhat mysteriously?

One thing the Israeli leadership did as part of the strategy to undermine the PLO - besides outright assassination efforts - was to FUND HAMAS.

Think about that.

The idea was to produce a local antagonist to the PLO and thereby help to divide the population, keep them fighting among themselves to undermine its leadership and make them more compliant with the colonial enterprise.

To Israel's surprise, Hamas actually came to power. Oopsie. Blowback, anyone? Palestinians, not being any more stupid than you or I, noticed that their mighty leadership had morphed into toothless, corrupt Quislings and voted in Hamas. Sure, they took their religion a little seriously, but they promised to deal more firmly with the Israelis and clean up the corruption. The Israeli state, in destroying the PLO and funding Hamas, had only has itself to blame for further radicalizing the Palestinians and ushering in Hamas. Had it dealt fairly with the PLO, Hamas would never have come into being. (So now we must demonize Hamas! Let the cycle begin again! Israel doesn't care - they're winning!)

As for claims about driving Israel into the sea, can we give that old canard a fucking break already? It gets tired really fast. I'm looking for a metaphor here: picture an elephant, stepping on a mouse, putting enough weight on it to make it writhe uncomfortably. It ignores the mouse's repeated cries for relief - but suddenly pays attention when the mouse loses its temper and starts swearing at the elephant and uttering all sorts of threats. The elephant INCREASES the pressure on the mouse, for having the nerve to threaten it! There is no way in hell the mouse is ever going to kill the elephant. It just wants the fucking animal off its back. You gotta take the rhetoric with a grain of salt. Israel has state of the art weaponry. All the Palestinians have is brave words. Oh, and teenage boys and lots of rocks. Those are pretty fuckin' scary too. Phew. Scramble those Apaches!

We also need to look at the Israeli leadership: the war criminal Ariel Sharon of Sabra and Shatila fame. Shamir the hardliner or was it Rabin? Now Netan-fucking-yahoo: these boys are ALL war criminals, with the deaths of thousands of Palestinians on their records. Is it THAT surprising these provoked a similar hardening in the positions of the vassal state Palestine?
 

Merowe

Well-Known Member
You really have no idea what you are talking about huh? I gave you your answer was it not the one you wanted?
It's an endorsement of the principle of 'might is right'. While its a seductively easy argument to make - when you happen to have the biggest stick - it is not a serious position.
 

fenderburn84

Well-Known Member
If you belive for a second that Sharon was a monster sir, you really do not understand near east policy at all. Every single time peace was called for the Palestinians broke it. That's a fact. Just like the fact of actual ownership of the land wich you completely ignored. Not a fact that's gonna help whatever it is your trying to say huh?
 

fenderburn84

Well-Known Member
He was killed by that coward amir. May he suffer. So what's the point? Do we have crazies too, well yes, is that a justification for something? Or are you looking into the conspiracy angle of it all?
 

fenderburn84

Well-Known Member
One time. And by a maniac at that. Israel has a fair share of insane fools just like every other country. I fail to see the point.
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
One time. And by a maniac at that. Israel has a fair share of insane fools just like every other country. I fail to see the point.
You're just not gonna see it, youve been too brainwashed.

Ok answer me this one question; why should the US prop up Israel? No more bullshit Fenderburn, the US weren't the Nazis, they don't have reperations to pay nor guilt on their conscience...so why should the US continue to fund a country who gives basically nothing in return except multiple breaches of International law and the Geneva convention?

You also realise every time an Americans weapon is fired by the Israelis that the Americans are blamed too?
 

fenderburn84

Well-Known Member
First off no one said the us is or should pay reperations. So that's a great way to start. From a reality based thought process Israel and the US are allies. You may not like it, but you could always talk to your representative and change it. The reason the US has continued to in your words prop up Israel is this. They (israel) take so much heat for being an ally of the US just as much as the us takes if not more. This ultra pro-palestine movement is a relativily new phenomena. These are the policies of the United States like it or hate it, it is what it is. I am actually a fan of the US leaving Israel alone, this disease of political correctness is a huge part of the problems the United States faces.
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
First off no one said the us is or should pay reperations. So that's a great way to start. From a reality based thought process Israel and the US are allies. You may not like it, but you could always talk to your representative and change it. The reason the US has continued to in your words prop up Israel is this. They (israel) take so much heat for being an ally of the US just as much as the us takes if not more. This ultra pro-palestine movement is a relativily new phenomena. These are the policies of the United States like it or hate it, it is what it is. I am actually a fan of the US leaving Israel alone, this disease of political correctness is a huge part of the problems the United States faces.
So why are you arguing with us then? Did you read the thread title yeah?
 

fenderburn84

Well-Known Member
And in Israel those in the real world can find a great example of strength. Like stated earlier there is no Palestinian land. The land they live on is a very kind gift. To put it in context would you agree with being attacked winning some land and then giving that land back even though the same people are still in charge? I would love to see peace but in all honesty its Palestine's turn to extend the olive branch. You know the old saying fool me once...
 

fenderburn84

Well-Known Member
I'm arguing the reality. In the not crazy world it is quite clear the US has a very important reason to be involved in Israel. Militant Islam is one of the largest threats to the American society as a whole. Don't get mad because i wont buy into your nonsense.
 

smok3y1

Active Member
I'm arguing the reality. In the not crazy world it is quite clear the US has a very important reason to be involved in Israel. Militant Islam is one of the largest threats to the American society as a whole. Don't get mad because i wont buy into your nonsense.
Militant Islam is only a threat to American society because of Israel's occupation of Palestinian, American's occupation and propping up monarchs and brutal dictators. If the West stopped meddling in other countries affairs there would be no threat.
 

fenderburn84

Well-Known Member
Are you kidding me? You blame the entirety of radical Islam on Israeli relations? That's a very narrow thought process. Do you really think, let's say we the us cut all ties tomorrow, you think radicals are just gonna put down the guns and spread love? You really do not understand Islam at all huh? The goal of radical island is to make the world convert or die, all this Israel talk is just a rather poor veil.
 
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