Quantitative Airstone Test. an end to the hype

sqydro

Active Member
Always good to see a comparisons and reports on anything that will save me $$$ and optimize my grow conditions. REP+ my friend
if u wanna save money and optomise go with no airstones at all and no air pump or line, use waterfall effect for DO same if not more DO and less equip = more efficient!

great test OP ++ rep i have a DO meter but need to find a tooll to open it lol then im doing a flooming v air stone v waterfall effect DO test, as u say and have prooved, temps is the most important of all!!
 

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
Lets see if you bought 8 of the 7" vs the 9" the cost would be 15$ each vs 16$ each so say

$120.00

http://www.diffuserexpress.com/catalog/flexair_threaded_disc_diffusers.html

and a pump say $94.00

http://www.sunlightsupply.com/p-11512-ecoplus-commercial-air-pumps.aspx

so that's $214.00, never have to buy another stone, you get 10x the bubbles and the bubble size is .500 vs 6000 for a blue stone.

I guess the choice comes down to $$ vs return

If you were getting 2 oz x 8 buckets = 448gr
If you saw a 10% increase in yield = 44 gr more = paid for 2x over by increase

so even a 5% increase would make it well worth it 5% 22gr x 5 x a year = 110 extra gr a year plus you have the equipment and happy plants.
 

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
Hydrogen Peroxide and Horticulture
By Bryce Fredrickson
Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) is a clear sharp smelling substance very similar in appearance to water (H2O). Like water it is made up of Hydrogen and Oxygen, however H2O2 has an extra Oxygen atom in an unstable arrangement. It is this extra atom that gives H2O2 its useful properties. H2O2 has been used for many purposes including cleaning, bleaching, sterilizing, rocket fuel, animal feed treatment and in addition many miraculous claims about its health benefits have been made. This article isn't about any of these; instead it will concentrate on horticultural applications. H2O2 is of great use for both hydroponics and dirt/soilless gardening.
1. What Does Hydrogen Peroxide do?
H2O2 is an unstable molecule, when it breaks down a single oxygen atom and a molecule of water is released. This oxygen atom is extremely reactive and will attach itself to either another O- atom forming a stable Oxygen molecule or attack a nearby organic molecule. Both the stable and O- forms will increase the level of dissolved oxygen. This is the method by which H2O2 is beneficial. Pretreating the water supply with H2O2 will drive out the Chlorine many cities use to sterilize it. This will also degrade any pesticides or herbicides that might be present as well as any other organic matter. Well water can be high in methane and organic sulfates, both of which H2O2 will remove. Many disease causing organisms and spores are killed by Oxygen, the free Oxygen H2O2 releases is extremely effective at this. H2O2 will help eliminate existing infections and will help prevent future ones. It is also useful for suppressing algae growth. The free Oxygen atom will destroy dead organic material (i.e, leaves roots) in the system preventing them from rotting and spreading diseases.
2.Over Watering
Roots require Oxygen to breathe and low levels are the main cause of almost all root diseases. Both soil and hydroponic plants often fall prey to the same syndrome although it is rarely recognized as what it really is. Hydroponic crops often fail due to "root rot" and soil crops succumb to "over watering." The real cause of both these problems is a shortage of Oxygen at the root zone. In a soil system the soil consists of particles, a film of water on the particles and air spaces between the particles. When too much water is put into the soil the air spaces fill with liquid. The roots will quickly use up what Oxygen is dissolved in the water, if they haven't drunk enough of the liquid to allow air back in to the soil spaces they will stop working. In this situation roots will start dying within twenty-four hours. As the roots die the plants ability to drink water and nutrients will decrease, this will cause symptoms of nutrient deficiencies (mostly pale, slow, weak growth), and strangely they will start to wilt like they don't have enough water. It is easy to make a fatal mistake at this point and add more water.
In a Hydroponic system the cause is a more direct simple lack of oxygen in the solution, this may be from inadequate circulation and/or aeration. High reservoir temperatures also interfere with Oxygen's ability to dissolve in the water. Temperatures above 70F (20C) will eventually cause problems, 62F-65F (16C-18C) is recommended. The same symptoms will appear as with soil plants but you can also check the roots. Healthy roots should be mostly white with maybe a slight yellowish tan tinge. If they are a brownish colour with dead tips or they easily pull away there is at least the beginnings of a serious problem. An organic dirtlike rotting smell means there is already a very good chance it is too late. As roots die and rot they eat Oxygen out of the water, as Oxygen levels are even further depleted more roots die, a viscius circle may be well under way. Reduced Oxygen levels and high temperatures both encourage anaerobic bacteria and fungi. The plants may still be saved but you will have to work fast.
3. How Hydrogen Peroxide prevents root rot/overwatering.
When plants are watered with H2O2 it will break down and release Oxygen into the area around the roots. This helps stop the Oxygen from being depleted in the water filled air spaces until air can get back into them. High Oxygen levels at the roots will encourage rapid healthy root growth. In a Hydroponic system H2O2 will disperse through out the system and raise Oxygen levels as it breaks down. Strong white healthy roots with lots of fuzzy new growth will be visible. This fuzzy growth has massive surface area allowing for rapid absorption of the huge amounts of water and nutrients needed for rapid top growth. A healthy plant starts with a healthy root system.
4. How to use it.
H2O2 comes in several different strengths 3%, 5%, 8% and 35%, also sold as food grade Hydrogen Peroxide. The most economical is 35% which we recommend be diluted to three percent before using, as at this high concentration it can cause damage to skin and clothing. When working with food grade H2O2 it is very important that you clean up any spills or splashes immediately, it will damage almost anything very quickly. This is extra important with skin and clothing. Skin will be temporarily bleached pure white if not washed cleaned. Gloves are strongly recommended when working with any strong chemical.
Food grade H2O2 can be diluted to three percent by mixing it one part to eleven parts water (preferably distilled). The storage container should be opaque to prevent light from getting in and it must be able to hold some pressure. If three-liter pop bottles are available in your area they are ideal for mixing and storing H2O2. There are twelve quarter liters (250ml) in three liters, if you put in one quarter liter H2O2 and eleven quarter liters (250ml) water in the bottle it will full of three percent H2O2 and the bottle can hold the pressure that the H2O2 will generate. Three percent Hydrogen Peroxide may be added at up to three ml's per liter (2 1\2 tsp. Per gallon), but it is recommended that you start at a lower concentration and increase to full strength over a few weeks. Use every watering even on fresh cuttings. For hydroponics use every reservoir change and replace twenty-five percent (one quarter) every day. Example: In a 100L reservoir you would add three hundred ml's (3%) H2O2 when changing the nutrient. You would then add seventy-five ml's more every day.
5. Where to get it.
35% food grade: called food grade because it has no toxic impurities
Of course your local hydroponics retailer, whom you can locate over the web at www.hydromall.com. Direct order off the web (there may be shipping restrictions on high strength peroxides). H2O2 is used to bleach hair so the local hairdresser may have a source. The local feed supplier may have it in small towns. Prices range from fifteen dollars per quarter liter to eighty dollars a gallon. One gallon will treat up to fifty thousand liters of water.
3%5%, 8%
Can be found at most drugstores or pharmacies, prices start at a less than a dollar for a one hundred-ml bottle that will treat one hundred liters.
6. What to do if you already have root rot.
In Dirt:
Use peroxided water with anti-fungicide (benomyl) and a high Phosphate fertilizer (9-45-15, 10-52-10, 0-60-0) for root growth. Root booster (5-15-5) or any other product with rooting hormone dissolved in it is helpful in regrowing roots and is strongly recommended. If a plant is wilty adding Nutri-Boost may save it. Water heavily until liquid pours out the bottom of the pot. This sound like bad idea, but it flushes out stagnant dead water and replaces it with fresh highly oxygenated water. Don't let plants sit in trays full of water, the soil will absorb this water and stay too wet. Don't water again until the pot feels light and the top inch or two of the soil are dry.
In Hydro:
Change your nutrients. Add H2O2 to the system. This will add oxygen and chemically eat dead roots. If roots are badly rotted and can be pulled away by hand you should pull them off. They are already dead and will only rot, causing further problems. Add a fungicide to kill any fungus that is probably present in the rotted tissue to prevent it from spreading. Root booster will speed recovery. If plants are wilty Nutri-Boost may help save them. Increase aeration of the water, get an airpump and air stones, or more of them, for the reservoir. An air stone under every plant is usually very effective, but will require a larger air pump. Models that will do from forty to four hundred stones are available. Decrease the reservoir temperature, oxygen dissolves better in cold water and disease causing organisms reproduce slower as well. A good temperate range is 62F to 65F; anything above 70F will eventually cause a problem. It is also a good idea to remove any wilty plants from the system and put them on a separate reservoir so they don't infect plants that are still healthy.
Summary
The key to big productive plants is a big healthy root system and Hydrogen Peroxide is a great way to keep your roots healthy. It is a must to ensure the biggest best crops possible and to increase the chances of your plants thriving to harvest. Peroxide users will rarely lose plants or crops to root disease and will harvest larger and more consistent crops.
 

mike91sr

Well-Known Member
and a pump say $94.00

http://www.sunlightsupply.com/p-11512-ecoplus-commercial-air-pumps.aspx

so that's $214.00, never have to buy another stone, you get 10x the bubbles and the bubble size is .500 vs 6000 for a blue stone.

I guess the choice comes down to $$ vs return

If you were getting 2 oz x 8 buckets = 448gr
If you saw a 10% increase in yield = 44 gr more = paid for 2x over by increase

so even a 5% increase would make it well worth it 5% 22gr x 5 x a year = 110 extra gr a year plus you have the equipment and happy plants.
I have an air pump bigger than that (not the 280, mine is 112w). So I don't think the stone change would make a difference in total DO, as legallys test proved. No stone, unless it's too small/restrictive for the pump it's attached to, will make a difference. The expensive diffusers, with the smaller bubble size and 10x as many, still made no difference.

I agree, an upgrade in the pump would be worth it, and only then would a stone upgrade be worth it, and even at that point I'd want a comparison to see if the stone is a limiting factor before I get more expensive ones. I couldn't find max airflow ratings for the cheaper airstones, so I don't know exactly at what point you'd want to get larger stones. I can tell you that with 8 stones hooked up to my 112w, 110l/min pump, there is a noticeable difference in the airflow from each stone if I close one of the open valves. This means my pump is not able to max out airflow through these stones, so no amount of money spent on any type of stone will make a difference larger than what legally's test proved.

So I don't think I'd see the hypothetical returns you're talking about. Although a pump upgrade is in my long-term plans.

Do you have any info on max airflow for stones besides the flexair? They're the only ones that seem to say it.


 

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
Woods and I are growing in RDWC. Well, my new RDWC is almost finished..but anyways; for those growing in DWC it's NOT about DO. DO is easily achieved. What you really need is bubbles moving across the roots. If it were only about DO then even a 4" clogged airstone would achieve maximum DO.

While a waterfall..or whatever would probably reach max DO I wouldn't rely on it for anything except flood/drain.
The more air the better. Can't wait for my discs to get here :)
 

mike91sr

Well-Known Member
Right but wasn't the entire point of your test to disprove the need for expensive diffusers? I get that more air is better, but your results are showing that a bigger pump is what you need for more air, not a better stone.

Also, how do you mean that a 4" clogged stone will max out DO? Less airflow=less DO (temp constant). And what makes the difference between DWC/RDWC as far as bubbles vs DO?
 

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
What I am saying is that the maximum do for a given temp is easy to reach. You could probably do that with a POS clogged air stone. From the testing it was fairly obvious. DO means dissolved oxygen. Just because the solution has reached its maximum dissolve air content doesn't mean that more air isn't good. That is where the dwc comes in. Air bubbles passing over the roots will still increase the oxygen content of the root. ABOVE that of the DO level. Comprende?

Clogged air stones means lost crops and that is why those that are serious about all this shit...yet still find the time to come in here and explain it all, spend there money on the best clog free airstones they can find

Happy growing
 

Illegal Smile

Well-Known Member
DO isn't the only function of airstones. I want those bubbles to feed my DWC grow until roots are in the water. Then any airstone will do. My Boss Hog doubles work better for me than anything else.
 

mike91sr

Well-Known Member
What I am saying is that the maximum do for a given temp is easy to reach. You could probably do that with a POS clogged air stone. From the testing it was fairly obvious. DO means dissolved oxygen. Just because the solution has reached its maximum dissolve air content doesn't mean that more air isn't good. That is where the dwc comes in. Air bubbles passing over the roots will still increase the oxygen content of the root. ABOVE that of the DO level. Comprende?

Clogged air stones means lost crops and that is why those that are serious about all this shit...yet still find the time to come in here and explain it all, spend there money on the best clog free airstones they can find

Happy growing
I'm pretty sure you and I are agreeing, with different wording. My point has been that the stone is not the determining factor, rather the pump's total air output. With the extra water turbulence provided by the cheap blue airstones as opposed to the diffusers(in my dwc bucket, not rdwc), more oxygen will get to the roots, even though it's not dissolved.

I understand if the goal is to avoid clogs, but that doesn't necessarily make the stone better in any other aspect. If max DO is reached with the cheap stones, DO won't change with the diffuser anyway, again assuming temp is constant. And for the total airflow to not matter in RDWC, I assume you aren't putting an individual stone in each container, but just in the res? Otherwise there would be no difference in the systems. So the only benefit I see is that they don't clog. That still doesn't justify a 9" round diffuser to me, as there's no difference at all between that and cheaper, smaller diffusers. Again, unless you're running a pump that can push more air than your stones allow, which would take one hell of a pump.
 

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure we are not on the same page...LOLYes, there are air stones in every singe container. You seem to underplay the importance of the "only" benefit of not clogging. I see that as one of the most important aspects of an airstone. I have had all of them clog, even the expensive micropore diffusers. The other thing to consider (in DWC or RDWC) is the coverage AREA of each stone. When the container gets full of roots, the bubbles tend to be really concentrated above where the stone is. So a little blue stone only produces a tiny swath of bubbles where as a big disc produces a huge column of bubbles. I hope this makes sense. THere seems to be a lot of confusion about air stones and the need for air, etc. From the myth that "bubbles don't infuse oxygen until the break on the surface" which is really pretty stupid if you no anything about physics, to the thought that max DO is THE goal. IN DWC and its variants you want max air and max area in a stone that will resist clogging. Looking at the numbers, the 9" flex air stones really don't have any disadvantages at all. Maybe the price but $16... come on man, that is not much money for a single purchase that will last years. I've got about $800 worth of light bulbs that were only used for 6 months sitting on my shelf.
 

mike91sr

Well-Known Member
You haven't really addressed my points directly. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, and you just confirmed that we are on the same page....besides two things. I misunderstood your airstone configuration in the RDWC, which still doesn't change the application of the theory your test proved. Second, the stone area is what gives smaller stones a better penetration into a dense root system. Again, yes, a larger stone will provide the same amount of air over a greater area, but again, without a big enough pump to power that airstone beyond the capacity of the cheaper stones, there's no difference. The bubbles will be in low concentration with no pressure, so I don't think you'll see the same results with the "better stone" just because it's bigger. Again, unless you change the pump.

Although DO is not the be-all, end-all, it doesn't mean it's not an important factor in the equation. Besides, this entire thread was based on the efficiency of dissolving oxygen with different stones. My entire point has been based on your test and it's application. The stone makes no difference.
  • Even still, I stand by the fact that, on the same pump, it won't be any better. Legally's test proved that 2x6" is worse than 1x6". So on a pump realistically sized for most setups, same problem with your stone.​


Wasn't that the point of your test? All I'm doing is restating the results you found: a bigger pump is needed for an improvement, not a stone change. Without a bigger pump, the stones are NOT the limiting factor in the equation.
 

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
You haven't really addressed my points directly. I agree with pretty much everything you're saying, and you just confirmed that we are on the same page....besides two things. I misunderstood your airstone configuration in the RDWC, which still doesn't change the application of the theory your test proved. Second, the stone area is what gives smaller stones a better penetration into a dense root system. Again, yes, a larger stone will provide the same amount of air over a greater area, but again, without a big enough pump to power that airstone beyond the capacity of the cheaper stones, there's no difference. The bubbles will be in low concentration with no pressure, so I don't think you'll see the same results with the "better stone" just because it's bigger. Again, unless you change the pump.

Although DO is not the be-all, end-all, it doesn't mean it's not an important factor in the equation. Besides, this entire thread was based on the efficiency of dissolving oxygen with different stones. My entire point has been based on your test and it's application. The stone makes no difference.
  • Even still, I stand by the fact that, on the same pump, it won't be any better. Legally's test proved that 2x6" is worse than 1x6". So on a pump realistically sized for most setups, same problem with your stone.​


Wasn't that the point of your test? All I'm doing is restating the results you found: a bigger pump is needed for an improvement, not a stone change. Without a bigger pump, the stones are NOT the limiting factor in the equation.[/QUOTE]



First off a 6" blue stone vs a 6" ceramic with the same pump = ceramic hands down. The reason is the ceramic has a higher density = more bubbles and smaller bubbles = better plants.

Your pushing the same amout of air, the blue stone has less resistance due to larger porosity =bigger bubbles = not the best.
 

woodsmaneh!

Well-Known Member
Take a look at at the air bubbles produced by an aquarium aerator. Watch how quickly the bubbles rise to the surface. They provide little
aeration, but are aesthetically pleasing to watch. Bubbles must remain contacting the water, if they are to do the job properly. A good rule of thumb
is: The smaller the bubble, the longer it will remain suspended in water to dissolve.
 

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
WHats the best bet? A big PUMP and a BIG stone.

Woodsmen, I have been researching the regenerative blower I linked to above. I found one post where a guy was using it in a hydro setup but he had 1.5" plumbed all the way into his buckets. Then he was using the big square airtones with the 1/2" inlet.

The blowers move ALLOT of air, but at a much lower pressure. I think the pressure on them is around 1.5 PSI Like this model : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Thomson-HRB250w-electric-REGENERATIVE-ROTARY-RING-BLOWER-COMPRESSOR-reg-365-/120838112156?pt=BI_Pumps&hash=item1c2283439c#ht_500wt_946 For the same wattage you are getting 5X the amount of flow but you ahve to have some bigger plumbing or you are going to loose a bunch of pressure. I used some calculators to deal with pressure loss and it seems that If I T that blower outlet into a 2" PVC running down the side of my rows and then T off into 3/4 pipe into each bucket with a flex seal disc that I would loose approximately .4 psi. So we are only dealing with 1lb per square inch...not a whole lot at all. I need to call the flexs air folks as they don't give operating pressures.
 

mike91sr

Well-Known Member
Also of note was the "super mega micro diffuser" the gold standard of airstone..I mean, its got micro fucking bubblles man! ..scored middle of the pack. Going to pass on more of those.

The 6" blue stone and the 2" round stone moved much more water than all the other stones, it was visibly more. I mean the water was just boiling. The lowest water movement came from the bubble hose and the micro diffuser.
But if you can get the same results by saving shit tons of money on the actual air stones..it may be worth it to buy a proper airpump.

CONCLUSION

What am I going to do for airstones? Well its pretty obvious to me is the cheap old standby..the 6" blue airstones. They are a buck a piece so when your done with a cycle, you can simply pitch them and buy new ones. For me that means $16 every 3 months as opposed to $320 for 16 of the micro diffusers.


I'm actually going to sell the diffuser on e-bay. It is simply not worth the money I paid for it.

I hope you found the test informative and helpful. I was actually pretty surprised at how even the scores were. Seems like everyone always hemms and haws over which air stone to use when in actuality, it doesn't matter a how lot.
This is why I assumed we were on the same page. I wasn't aware your outlook on the subject had changed since then. And of course a bigger pump + bigger stones is the best solution. But that was never the argument as the subject was originally about air stones exclusively.

First off a 6" blue stone vs a 6" ceramic with the same pump = ceramic hands down.
Legally's test proved the exact opposite of that.
The reason is the ceramic has a higher density = more bubbles and smaller bubbles = better plants.

Yes the bubbles are smaller but the same amount of air is being let through a larger surface area so they're actually less dense, even if they're smaller. Legally's point was that the greater surface area is better. Mine is that a smaller area and greater total airflow means greater penetration into a dense root mass. I'd really like to see a side-by-side before believing all of those things, which aren't all correct anyway, actually result in better plants.
Your pushing the same amout of air
Exactly!!
the blue stone has less resistance due to larger porosity =bigger bubbles = not the best.
Why not? DO is already maxed out. If you ask me, less resistance due to larger porosity=bigger bubbles with higher pressure=great rootmass penetration=better.


I'm not trying to be a douche and just aimlessly argue here, but the thought process of just buying more expensive items despite proof that they're no different than the cheap version has become a huge problem within the hydroponics industry. And because both of you are clearly intelligent growers who don't just fall for the hype and bs marketing tactics thrown at you, and both have skills and knowledge that greatly outshine mine, I'm kind of shocked that you're both arguing against the results of an experiment designed to answer all of these disagreements.

 

Weedasaurus

Well-Known Member
interesting results. thanks for doing the research. So I guess this is one of the areas where your money isn't well spent. I wonder if you combine the airstones with a venturi pinwheel pump if you'll get even more air.
 

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
This thread is a great example of why I spend little time on this site anymore.
You try to help out but then inevitably you spend your time trying to convince some douche nozzle the realities of the situation. Woodsman is an extremely experienced grower who knows his shit front and back and yet douche #4,567 --Mike91sir feels the need to line by line debate him on the information that in my experience is accurate and correct.
Allow me to summarize the results of the test for those that can't seem to get a grasp on things..
For those growing in any method besides DWC or RDWC it became pretty clear that pretty much any airstone will do the job. If your just aerating your rez get a small airpump and a single stone.. done.

But for those utilizing DWC, things get more complicated..which should be no surprise. So here are a couple guidelines and things to remember
1. The principle method that air is entrained in solution is by bubbles passing through the solution
2. Given the same volume of air; smaller bubbles have way way way more surface area than bigger bubbles.
3. DWC buckets quickly get filled with roots.. there is no "turbulance" or "mixing"going on within the root zone. A little, but really not much.
4. THEREFORE, smaller bubbles are better.
5. Clogged stones will spell disaster in DWC..quickly. I was running living DWC so my stones were more prone to clog but I found that the blue stones clogged first, then the cylinders, and the micro pore was close behind.
6. When clogged, the micro pore gave off the least amount of air.
7. You need WIDE coverage of bubbles in DWC due to the sheer amount of roots. The broader your container the more important this becomes.
8. Resistance to clogging is one of the most important aspects of a DWC airstone, as is surface area.
9. I would say that your flow rates per container in DWC should be around 20 LPM.
10. There is no such thing as too much air, ALWAYS err on the side of more air. More air typically results in better performance.
11. The best air stone/ diffuser on the market? Even though I haven't used it yet, the flex air discs seem to be the IDEAL airstone. high flow rates, smaller bubbles, larger surface area and virtually impossible to clog due to their design. All that for $15.. shit man, sign me up!!
12. Best air pump on the market? Probably the alita but jesus are the expensive. I'm looking into using a blower but this requires very specific plumbing.

The big take away? don't be a cheap fuck, buy quality gear and check that off the list of things that can go wrong.
 

mike91sr

Well-Known Member
You can hate on me all you want and call me a douche for debating in a discussion board, but it doesn't change the fact that you have not even defended your change in outlook compared to the first post you made in this thread. I've been trying to get both of you to address my points head-on because I have a genuine interest in finding out why you think my theory is so asinine, but neither of you will, so we just keep repeating the same banter and now you're throwing a fit.

So I made it very clear how I'm presenting my argument point by point. Not my fault that offends you since you can't address those points directly. I even gave both of you respect but now you come and attack me personally for what reason? Because I don't just want to believe you, and question your opinions?? I'm just trying to wrap my head around why you are contradicting yourself. Every point you made in your last post is essentially true, but neither of you have yet to actually address and disprove my theory in itself. As I try to explain the logic behind my argument and against yours, point by point, I still cannot get an answer from either of you.

I think the big take away is that if you cannot explain why you are going to contradict the results of your own study, the thread should be locked immediately after the write-up is posted. I'll leave your thread now since there's no longer anything useful coming of it.

Happy growing, smoke a j and chill the hell out bro
 

legallyflying

Well-Known Member
All u need to know is posted in the list above. Why am I not going to waste my time to prove that some of your assumptions are incorrect? Why would I? The thread evolved from the original test, I'm not contradicting anything. The original point was any airstone will achieve max DO. I went with the cheap airstones and they clogged up pretty damn quickly and the didn't have enough size to distribute air evenly....sure they were maxing out DO when I tested the buckets but that wasn't good enough. Again, this is for the DWC folks.

This kind of reminds me of the thread where a guy was insisting that it was the turbulence on the surface that entrained the oxygen, that the bubbles passing through the water didn't do anything. Nothing I could say would convince him otherwise.
 
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