HPS Bulb Differences?
- Thread starter RoadhouseToker
- Start date
pharmacoping
Active Member
yadi yadi yadi...all good in veg, but when it comes time to flower there is very little penetration into the canopy. thats why your buds are so small, and your plants have tons of unburned carbs in them, regardless of your flushing techniques. imo
hyroot
Well-Known Member
sorry hater Im 100% organic. I only feed with guano teas. unburned carbs....? you dont want them to be yellow when done. you want them to be green. yellow means they are deficient, Unbalanced nutrition
pure indicas which don't yield much. sativas produce the giant colas but i don't like sativas
Vertical t5 grow
View attachment 2092464View attachment 2092465
hyroot
Well-Known Member
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
Lecture Notes:, Transport and Nutrition in Plants, Bio 102
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf
The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
Elisabeth Holland
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
Sidwell Friends School » News and Events
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
Sirius Systems, Inc.
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
HORT 201 & 202 Home Page
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
University of Missouri Extension Home
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
Lecture Notes:, Transport and Nutrition in Plants, Bio 102
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf
The claim only ‘chemical’ ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
Elisabeth Holland
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
Sidwell Friends School » News and Events
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
Sirius Systems, Inc.
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
HORT 201 & 202 Home Page
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
University of Missouri Extension Home
hyroot
Well-Known Member
Red 630nm UV lighting redsun http://www.hellolights.com/48hot5redsun54w-uvlighting.aspx
View attachment 2092466
660nm red zoo med flora sun http://www.aquariumguys.com/zoo-med-flora-sun-max-plant-growth-t5-ho-fluorescent-lamp-46in-54w.html
View attachment 2092470
Then Wave point is releasing a 660nm bulb very soon called ultra cola or ultra growth
hagen and sylvania sell awesome 660nm bulbs but they have to be ordered from the u.k.
also you want one per 8 bulb. for blue actinics / uv-a and 760nm infrared (dense buds) wave point coral wave
http://www.hellolights.com/24whot5coralwave-wavepoint-1.aspx
hyroot
Well-Known Member
the aquamedic planta is cool. the older version of it had higher peaks of red. the zoo med flora sun has about 20% higher peak than the newer aquamedic planta. The actinic plus is great too.
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/61/11/3107.full
bird mcbride
Well-Known Member
You don't have to disgard your HID to run t5's. With a single 1kw setup I skirt my table with 300w's of t5 daylight tubes.
hyroot
Well-Known Member
i so jacked this thread. sorry bro!
true but i only have so much room and i run less wattage and no heat and no ventilation
and my t5's produce so much better quality. just like plant nutrition, given the right lighting that a plant needs can produce some of the best quality / potency / flavor / aroma.
in one room i have an 8 bulb and a 16 bulb. covering the same area as 2 1k's which would pull at 8.9 amps each, 2136 watts total and my t5's pull 1468 watts total
true but i only have so much room and i run less wattage and no heat and no ventilation
and my t5's produce so much better quality. just like plant nutrition, given the right lighting that a plant needs can produce some of the best quality / potency / flavor / aroma.in one room i have an 8 bulb and a 16 bulb. covering the same area as 2 1k's which would pull at 8.9 amps each, 2136 watts total and my t5's pull 1468 watts total
Alexander Supertramp
Well-Known Member
Strongly disagreeing shows what little you know....Hyroot pretty much nailed it. And did it in a very articulate and understandable manner....
Alexander Supertramp
Well-Known Member
A well written and correct post.....
phillipchristian
New Member
You might actually want to read the entire thread and then make comments. You, your 15 posts, and your eagerness to jump on my initial comment show EXACTLY how little you know. In the future it would be a good idea if you actually read before opening your mouth.
phillipchristian
New Member
Like I said Hyroot, the bud density just isn't there. Look what you had to do just to get that plant int he last pictures? Those are 2 $300 Quantumn T5 setups and the bud density and size are still very small. Show me how to get fat colas with fluoros on my 5-6' plants and I'm all over it. Just don't tell me I have to spend $750 more in lighting per plant.
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
i agree with you 100% about all the fact your putting out but your a little opinionated, with out hid you have a height restriction i mean look at you own pics you have to have side lighting that close to 2 plants in a 10x10x8 with all t5 and you want your plants to be as tall as you well your talking 4k-5kw of HID or the same # of fluoro (wattage wise) you coul probably flower the whole room but how much space is consumed by the lights and how much height are you going to lose? 2-3 ft. on all sides. another thing is on the third pic i wanna see yard stick and the lower buds so i can determine what the effective distance is from lights. but all in all t5 is for small compact grows and vegging IMO
and look at your bud, nice as they are, they aren't ripe enough for me which kinda shows that fluoro take longer to get ripe bud(when to harvest is personal thing i am not saying the bud is not ripe just not where i would want it to be) and the yellowing/purpleing/whitening of a plant is normal i fed all organic for a long time that effect is really strain dependent. but i will say they stay greener than with chemical nutes. but that really play into the process of nutrien uptake. as far as density goes those look like some nice dense nugs so i dont really see a problem there with flouro, my first time flowering was with t12 fluoros and i got some pretty big dense nugs for a first timer
hyroot
Well-Known Member
.for one the pics of plants were at 4 weeks and 6 weeks. Not even done yet. If you have grown you could tell that. The finished buds are very ripe. The trichomes are mostly amber. More cbd. No density......??? Are you kidding they are rock hard buds. The buds come out more denser under the t5 morevthan the 1k because I have a bulb that puts out 35% infrared. Like I said I do pure indicas. I dont fuck wuth sativas. If you ever grown a pure indica. You would know even under 4 1k's the buds only get so big. Thy stop growing taller once they reach a certain height. Sativas veg fast amd produce giamt colas but take 3 or 4 weeks longer to finish. In that time ill have anither batch ready ( perpetual ).
My quantums I paid $200 for 8 bulb and $380 for 16 bulb fixture. Plus bulbs. So around $950 total. I cover a 5x6.5.
Get that in that plant in the last pic....... What......? That does not make any sense. To.get in the pic. All I had to do was aim the camera and push the button.
My quantums I paid $200 for 8 bulb and $380 for 16 bulb fixture. Plus bulbs. So around $950 total. I cover a 5x6.5.
Get that in that plant in the last pic....... What......? That does not make any sense. To.get in the pic. All I had to do was aim the camera and push the button.
phillipchristian
New Member
Take it how you want to but I was the FIRST one in this thread to say that you brought a logical and intelligent argument. I listened to you, asked questions, and even defended you. So you wana jump down my throat because you MISREAD my post. Pull it together buddy. Now I don't have any patience for you. I said "Look what you had to do to get the PLANT in that last picture" meaning you had to hang $950 worth of lights and bulbs vertically around 1-2 plants just to get some popcorn and buds that aren't that big. I produce buds twice that size under a 1000w light and my yield is 4 times that. So if you wanna hang $1000 around 1 plant to get some nice little nugs then go for it. Won't work for the majority of us and definitely not for anyone who grows commercially. Saying that I would know "if I had ever grown" was just a petty attempt by you to make a snide remark at me because YOU THOUGHT I was talking shit when in reality I wasn't. Fact of the matter is you lost all credibility in my book when you decided to become a dick. Your buds are small. If they were week 6 then they aren't getting much bigger. The buds in your harvest pics were small as well. I like fat, dense colas and so do the people that buy my shit. Best of luck to you in converting the world to fluoros. You're beating your ahead against the wall though. Although your such an ass you probably don't care.
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
listen man i was giving you a good critique but i you wan to take it bad you can. those buds on the table are the unripe ones the ones on the plants well you should definatley wait to harvest, and if you read is said there was no density problem your buds look dense. and you info on IR needs some backing AS I TURN MY HPS ON 1 HOUR EARLIER THAN MY OTHER LIGHTS BECAUSE IT TELLS THE PLANT IT TIME TO WAKE UP AND GO TO SLEEP(hormones) IR DOES NOT MAKE YOUR BUD DENSE PROPER NUTES AND LIGHT INTENSITY DOES.(which can be acheived with t5)
also how many people do you know that only grow indica? most of the people i know are growing hybrids and high yeilders that can get up to 8 ft tall.
oh and the pic thing. isaid i wanted to see your bottom buds and the height measured with a yard stick; from media to light
also how many people do you know that only grow indica? most of the people i know are growing hybrids and high yeilders that can get up to 8 ft tall.
oh and the pic thing. isaid i wanted to see your bottom buds and the height measured with a yard stick; from media to light
hyroot
Well-Known Member
I so love educating the ignorant.
I.wasnt talking shit either. You talked shit in almost every post. You were definitely talking shit in the last post. You hate and nay say in every post. That was a reply to 2 different posts. Just because I can makea statement that proves what you said is wrong does not all mean im talking shit. Maybe a little sarcasm. you have not defended me. You have jumped on people for defending me. .you kept sayimg you can only do this orbthat witb those lights.I have 24 3 footers under all that. The pics were 8 of them under the 8 bulb. I push them back as I move in the next batch.. When I was lemon skunk.. Pure sativa. I as pulling a qper per plant. But with the kushes and soma rock bud. I average 1.5 oz to 2 oz per plant..
Strain is the main factor in yield. Ive grown the sme strains under a 1k too and got the same yield. I DO PURE INDICAS. No hybrids no sativas.
By the way each of bubba kush buds weigh in around 4 g each.
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
IR does not play as big a role past the first hour or so since it is not a photosynthetically wave length mr know it all. the properterm for IR would be near IR which is the 600-700 range....
polyarcturus
Well-Known Member
your not educating me or would have went and bought some t5s already lol. but anyways man as my dad would say.." if you get your head out of your ass you might be able to see where your going"