High-pressure (aka "true") aeroponics - nutrient schedule?

[foresakenlion]

PetFlora, Nice use of the PVC coupler to prevent a fruiting plant from dropping, pure KISS, bravo. I wouldn't recommend adding flowering nutes to veg, plants are with no disrespect idiots, when you give them nutrients it elicits are response that produces hormones, so you can see by giving them both at once you're just biologically confusing a simple creature, same concept as giving Superthrive during flower, the poor stupid plant doesn't know any better so it just does what we tell it.

Atomizer, his roots are true aeroponic roots, they're just not optimal. I caution everyone against using all these new terms, sans PetFlora with HPA as people are brainwashed into thinking LPA is Aeroponics, and that's the state of being. In the industry when they say aeroponics they refer to any method sans ultrasonic that produces the 30-80 micron mist. So yes indeed they're true aero roots, just sub optimal, and that isn't so bad, just means a little tweaking to get it just right.

If you would like a easy to accomplish perfect example of true aeroponic spinal root hairs that grow down, then out, then down and out again on those new hairs, then all you need do is put together a container, and use an ultrasonic fogger to start a seedling or clone, when the roots develop you will be provided with a perfect example of the spinal columnish growth pattern, then you can transplant into your aero system, using the ultrasonic as a visual comparison guide. From what I have seen the only difference is that Aeroponic roots are thicker, but they retain the same growth pattern as a true dry fogs roots. Of note is that when I personally do this, I let it nearly 24/7 and only have a short break at the end of every hour to allow the water to cool it's ambient heat. Very simple inexpensive, and does everything a $500 Aero/TurboKloner do.

Atomizer, you or someone else with true spinal pom poms, should definitely make an effort to update that wikipedia entry with a visual worthy of the world knowing why aero roots optimally tuned put everything else to rest.

Also sir, thank you for the chamber depth / fog clear times, that gives us all a good but rough idea of the densest we need to achieve regardless of the scale we build to.

Atomizer, is also correct in that an accumulator tank is commonly used in an RO system that uses a booster pump specifically because it lessons wear and tear on the pump, it also acts as an echo chamber for viberations that come down the lines. I have to note they use them in RO systems for the exact same reason as here, to keep a constant instant on demand pressure.

Atomizer, I believe you've stumbled unto something, we know that aerponics in nature is a state of hydro atomized droplets WITH 99% humidity, perhaps the plants desire a constant dry fog on top of the larger aero droplets, using ultrasonic fog to keep the RH in the chamber at 99% humidity constantly or while in the off cycle, could perhaps prove advantagious from the plants perspective, ineffect you'd have a cycle from 99% humidty to 100% and then back down as a continual cycle. If no one has tried this I'd certainly like to be the first one to find out.

Bob Smith, RH is a horrible guide only because the costs involved in installing a sensor NETWORK, not a SINGLE sensor is very cost prohibitive, sensors being only as relavent as placement. I would be because of this issue more interested in acquiring one of those leaf sensors from AgriHouse, then you could have your plants tell your solenoid when they need to be feed, not the other way around.

Anyone ever used a glass terrarium, they're deep, they're water tight, they are built to facilitate fog. Glass is a desicant so it would strip the air of moisture, then the air would do the same until an equilibirum was reached, perhaps it would be easier to reach the desired 99% humidity

Yucca as a natural surfactant to reduce beading on roots?

 

[foresakenlion]

Ok three more points.

Drain to waste is advantageous to the plants because you're disregarding the hormones they've secreted in their effluence, also you're feeding it a fresh ratio of nutrients in balance ideally. I get that and thank you, I think If I get this system built by next cycle I'm going to DTW, I'll just collect it and give it to the backyard or something to replenish outdoor soil. Though I guess you'd call it Drain To Earth then, it should be fine as the main pollution in waste water is phosphates... but our friend Cannabis strip mines those like a machine possessed so it should just be other nutes.

You're half correct about the nutrients thing, in seed and seedling they have their nutes inside stored as starches already, but in veg nitrogen is the most important, it's required for all vegetative growth in high amounts, now when you bloom, phosphorous is dominant, with radioactive potassium being a strong second (why is potassium K? instead of having PH and PO, I think I just answered my own question... lol PH is taken)

If you want to mix your own formula's be they from dry or liquid materials, or if you want to approximate a formula of a commercial product you have the weight of, then you need to be checking out hydrobuddy, http://scienceinhydroponics.com/2011/01/the-first-free-hydroponic-nutrient-calculator-program-o.html.

I was using Lucas of the Lucas Formula's mentor's creation, who is named pH who really created the formula though Lucas is the credited one and will admit such on his own posts on cannabis world, which I highly suggest you read. I've seen used the Lucas Formula to validate the calculations of the hydrobuddy program as there are THOUSANDS of growers that have documented Lucas success and it's extremely accurate.

In fact it's so good you could custom design formulas for different species of plants custom tailored to different growth stages. This makes nutrition for plants so easy that now I'd like to focus more on beneficial micro's like lacto-bacillus or elicitors like chitosan or aspirin which cause the plant RNA to have an allergic immune response also referred to as a systemic acquired resistance, unlocking RNA potential for defensive growth, which when nurtured is instead focused in abundant growth.

 

[PetFlora]

See my response within your comments in blue italics [QUOTE=foresakenlion;6240081]PetFlora, Nice use of the PVC coupler to prevent a fruiting plant from dropping, pure KISS, bravo. Thanks, it might require a thick washer to lock though, as the threads might not be long enough to tighten down against s thin table top, like my Rubbermaid. I wouldn't recommend adding flowering nutes to veg, plants are with no disrespect idiots, when you give them nutrients it elicits are response that produces hormones, so you can see by giving them both at once you're just biologically confusing a simple creature (Let me BRIEFLY clarify: Plants use NPK-Mg-C throughout both cycles. The only difference is ratios of each. DMs ONE GROW is a nicely balanced formula. During flower all that's missing is a bump in PK, which DMs Potash+ provides. Anybody?) same concept as giving Superthrive during flower, the poor stupid plant doesn't know any better so it just does what we tell it.

Atomizer, his roots are true aeroponic roots, they're just not optimal. I caution everyone against using all these new terms, sans PetFlora with HPA as people are brainwashed into thinking LPA is Aeroponics, and that's the state of being. In the industry when they say aeroponics they refer to any method sans ultrasonic that produces the 30-80 micron mist. So yes indeed they're true aero roots, just sub optimal, and that isn't so bad, just means a little tweaking to get it just right.

If you would like a easy to accomplish perfect example of true aeroponic spinal root hairs that grow down, then out, then down and out again on those new hairs, then all you need do is put together a container, and use an ultrasonic fogger to start a seedling or clone, when the roots develop you will be provided with a perfect example of the spinal columnish growth pattern, then you can transplant into your aero system, using the ultrasonic as a visual comparison guide. From what I have seen the only difference is that Aeroponic roots are thicker, but they retain the same growth pattern as a true dry fogs roots. Of note is that when I personally do this, I let it nearly 24/7 and only have a short break at the end of every hour to allow the water to cool it's ambient heat. Very simple inexpensive, and does everything a $500 Aero/TurboKloner do.

Atomizer, you or someone else with true spinal pom poms, should definitely make an effort to update that wikipedia entry with a visual worthy of the world knowing why aero roots optimally tuned put everything else to rest.

Also sir, thank you for the chamber depth / fog clear times, that gives us all a good but rough idea of the densest we need to achieve regardless of the scale we build to.

Atomizer, is also correct in that an accumulator tank is commonly used in an RO system that uses a booster pump specifically because it lessons wear and tear on the pump, it also acts as an echo chamber for viberations that come down the lines. I have to note they use them in RO systems for the exact same reason as here, to keep a constant instant on demand pressure.

Atomizer, I believe you've stumbled unto something, we know that aerponics in nature is a state of hydro atomized droplets WITH 99% humidity, perhaps the plants desire a constant dry fog on top of the larger aero droplets, using ultrasonic fog to keep the RH in the chamber at 99% humidity constantly or while in the off cycle, could perhaps prove advantagious from the plants perspective, ineffect you'd have a cycle from 99% humidty to 100% and then back down as a continual cycle. If no one has tried this I'd certainly like to be the first one to find out. I have given this a lot of thought. I think you would need a commercial fog system capable of blasting the fog to fill the dome, plus a dome large enough to handle the added explosive growth and to protect the light fixture from moisture. I saw a Youtube video demo of a Plasma light where they poured water all over it, showing it is perfectly safe for greenhouse use. BUT $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Bob Smith, RH is a horrible guide only because the costs involved in installing a sensor NETWORK, not a SINGLE sensor is very cost prohibitive, sensors being only as relavent as placement. I would be because of this issue more interested in acquiring one of those leaf sensors from AgriHouse, then you could have your plants tell your solenoid when they need to be feed, not the other way around.

Anyone ever used a glass terrarium, they're deep, they're water tight, they are built to facilitate fog. Glass is a desicant so it would strip the air of moisture, then the air would do the same until an equilibirum was reached, perhaps it would be easier to reach the desired 99% humidity

Yucca as a natural surfactant to reduce beading on roots?[/QUOTE]

 

[foresakenlion]

Why don't you just buy an accumulator Pet? Every system AgriHouse ever manufactured had one, so there is a lot of validity in saying unless you have the accumulator it isn't a true system, is it aeroponics? yes it's because it has the droplet sizes, but it isn't deliverying or emulating the existing wisdom, it's avoiding the need for the accumulator. I think HPA can exist without the accumulator but can it get the cycle times that AgriHouse uses? NO PERIOD. That's the main contention between you and Atomizer, and since I just laid it to waste, knock it off.

 

[PetFlora]

Foresaken: Why? Because I don't feel it is necessary to incorporate an accum to get the magical root hairs and pom pom roots. During my last grow (with the help of A), I had achieved really nice HPA roots- they looked like cotton candy. Alas, a brutal and totally unexpected 7 day heat wave dried out the delicate hairs, and fried the roots. I was able to revive the plants, but the heat stress caused them all to become males, so I pulled it. I started a new journal on another site. Just transferred the plants from bubbler 5 days ago. So far so good, but the roots are young, fish bones, but no evidence of root hairs yet. I started a journal on another site in case you care to follow along.

 

[foresakenlion]

I'll google it, well I had to ask, you can't see a guy 90% dialed in stubbornly refusing the other 10% without wanting him to do better. I could understand if it was just a I don't have the money for the piece... well that's very different. Though you're right other than the line bleeding, and not being able to get the pinpoint times, the only other real issue with not running it, is stress on the pump.

 

[foresakenlion]

Been accused of not having communication skills so I'll do this in lines.

A) I know a lot about nutrients, the main difference being nitrogen vs phosphorous potassium.

The more effort I put into this, wasting time writing posts no one reads... the more I understand why there isn't more community, not just here but in general all over the place. Good luck PF.

 

[PetFlora]

Foresakenlion: My stubbornness regarding adding an accum/pressure gauge/solenoids...is my KISS concept. IMHO, if I gt close to the results without an accum, theoretically, I should have better results than any other grow method. That said, I am seeing excellent results with F & D using lava rock, and an organic soil mix using Air Pots (pretty incredible root structure).

Now, if I was a commercial grower, that last little bit might be worth the additional hardware (but it also adds another layer of finickiness). When my pod is dialed in, I do get root hairs! My last effort I had roots that looked like cotton candy. Keeping it dialed in has been the problem, but I think I have that figured out now.

Pump Failure

The old wives tale of pump failure is due to people not using an Aquatec 8800. Mine has been through 5 grows and counting (cycling o/o ~ every 3 minutes- 24/7) without any issues.

Nutrients

Am I wrong to believe that in both grow and flower that plants use NPK, it is only the ratios change. YES? OK, then if I use DM ONE Grow throughout, BUT, during Flower I add DM Potash+ aren't I creating a flowering nute? If yes, which I believe the answer is, then all I really need to know is how much Potash+ to use in early/middle and late flower. If you can answer that I will be grateful.

I am almost out of DM Gold Flower A & B, and will need to make the switch during this grow.

 

[THZZELJR]

wondering if you can help me out a bit. I am designing a cab outside dimension 4 x 2 x 6.5 Ft I want to fit a vertical sog 600wat 120 sites inside this cab with the dimensions of 4 x 2 x 4 site spacing roughly 3.5 inches with rows spaced 12 inches 4 rows on the side, 5 rows on rear wall and possibly ony a top row and bottom row in the front where the access door is. this will be stealth armoire type design ( carpenter by trade).I am going to build my misting chamber from FRP glued on top of plywood sealed with silicon. I plan on using these misters
http://www.coldfog.com/why-ruby-orifice-nozzles-.php
Im thinking I will put the misters in the top of the chamber and should only need about 10 at most.
I think your design is proven to be effective with the accumulator solenoid and pressure switch. I cant really gather how to scale your design. I will be fitting everything internal. my misting chamber will be 48in x 72in x 4in = 1152 feet cubed?
would a 1 gal accumulator like this handle this with a cycle of 3 second on 3 min off
http://www.clrmarine.com/m4/GC PST-1--groco-accumulator-tank-pst-1.html
and I want the smallest res possible
what pump do you use? should I use a blow off pump like quentin?
I think I want to drain to waste. How much mixed liquid would be displaced a day?
I will more than likely be combining this with a nutramist three head fogger on a timer as well.
Any suggestions and knowledge would be greatly appreciated.
Ordering my Emerald royal purple kush this week this will all be implemented within 2 months time.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

wondering if you can help me out a bit. I am designing a cab outside dimension 4 x 2 x 6.5 Ft I want to fit a vertical sog 600wat 120 sites inside this cab with the dimensions of 4 x 2 x 4 site spacing roughly 3.5 inches with rows spaced 12 inches 4 rows on the side, 5 rows on rear wall and possibly ony a top row and bottom row in the front where the access door is. this will be stealth armoire type design ( carpenter by trade).I am going to build my misting chamber from FRP glued on top of plywood sealed with silicon. I plan on using these misters
http://www.coldfog.com/why-ruby-orifice-nozzles-.php Nice nozzles- however they are likely very expensive, and what matters most is the coverage (spray pattern angle and throw, as well as being very low volume and having the correct micron size). Not saying these nozzles won't work, but there is no data from anyone who has used them before that I am aware of- therefore recommend starting with a proven nozzle to use as a benchmark and consider experimenting later with something to compare it to such as the red cloud tops nozzles, or bio-controls (although the bios seem to have bad quality lately from what I can tell).
Im thinking I will put the misters in the top of the chamber and should only need about 10 at most. Side shooting nozzles may be preferred as they might get better coverage in many situations. The number of nozzles is very important as you need to get the coverage with the minimum numer of nozzles as to not overshoot the target misting volume. The brand and model of nozzle you use will vary how many and placement.
I think your design is proven to be effective with the accumulator solenoid and pressure switch. I cant really gather how to scale your design. I will be fitting everything internal. my misting chamber will be 48in x 72in x 4in = 1152 feet cubed? It's hard to say, as all the parts are intertwined- just how many misters you need. First and foremost, you'll have to get the coverage on all root areas, and the correct micron size is important (dictated by your nozzles and pressure)- but you'll also struggle (we all do) to achieve this without overshooting Atomizers optimal target mist volume per area equation. The one gal accumulator should work, but remember the smaller the tank, the more often the pump has to come on and after much of the tank's volume is filled by pressurized air, it won't be much. My 10 gallon tank only holds around 2-3 gallons of nutes at 140 psi. I also recommend a higher rated tank (150 psi or so) as you have to consider the drawdown versus regulated pressure- meaning if your regulated pressure is 100 psi, then your tank needs to allow for a higher pressure than this so it can drawdown from higher pressures as a reserve. Most of the nozzles that produce the microns best for our application do it between 80-100 psi, and I suspect the closer to 100 psi the better, although the higher the pressure, the higher the volume they spit out, albeit at finer droplet size. Best thing is to try to ballpark everything based on our previous designs and scaling, use known nozzles, and then you'll have to fine tune your particular setup and mist timings in the real world as your individualized setup and variables will all come together to form your individualized environment and performance.
would a 1 gal accumulator like this handle this with a cycle of 3 second on 3 min off
http://www.clrmarine.com/m4/GC PST-1--groco-accumulator-tank-pst-1.html
and I want the smallest res possible
what pump do you use? should I use a blow off pump like quentin?
I think I want to drain to waste. How much mixed liquid would be displaced a day? Small res is okay, but I'd consider some sort of water level alarm so you down run your pump dry and kill it- or faithfully checking it each day, which is sort of a short change, because one of the great things about hpa is once dialed in, you could easily go a whole week without touching it. Your setup will probably only go through 2-3 gallons per day, although it will always vary as during different phases of plant growth, the requirements will be changed as you adjust your mist timing to keep the optimal wetness according o the plant's needs. I definitely recommend DTW as it's probably the single most enjoyable advantage of HPA. I believe the Aquatec 8800 is best for your app as it has a good reliable track record, while also being quiet. I use a Flojet which works great, but it is a bit louder as is also enjoys a slightly higher flow rate, but with your small proposed accumulator that would not be necessary - although I suspect quieter performance would be desireable for you.
I will more than likely be combining this with a nutramist three head fogger on a timer as well. I don't think the nutramist is necessary at all, it's expensive and introduces another unnecessary variable that will likely yield zero benefit above a properly set up HPA.
Any suggestions and knowledge would be greatly appreciated.
Ordering my Emerald royal purple kush this week this will all be implemented within 2 months time.

HPA is a little rough to initially dial in, but once it is, it's really less maintenance than soil! I would also recommend not starting your first crop with anything you don't mind losing just in case. Good luck and hope this helps you a little. The most important thing before you buy anything, is to wholly understand the entire concept of the best way to do this. If you fall short 10% of the ideal situation in HPA, you likely will lose 100% of it's benefits over traditional hydro, so it's a go all the way, or go home type thing. Make sure you read all you can from Atomizer and tree farmers posts, in my opinion they are the only people out there who really have this dialed in the best. Lucky we also have people here like Aerojunkie who has been at this for a while, and then r0m and myself are "getting there"...

 

[THZZELJR]

thanks trichy I have been putting in a lot of hours in research. I have a few lpa grow under my belt. I am going to get started again its been a few years. But for the time being Im going bubble so I can save enough money for a few of these systems. got some emerald triangle beans ordered cherry og and purple kush got a freebie of purple haze that I would like to be a good strain but im not holding my breath. Then Ill order cocoa kush and arjans haze next. but Ill definately be going vertical aero in this year.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Nice man, just do your homework... Ask lots of questions and hopefully I'll have more experience myself by then to tell you about too... The vertical idea will be interesting to see if there's an adequate way to get the mist to cover all the roots evenly, but let's see what you come up with... There's no guarantee that you'll have better results with aero, despite all the extra work. I think it's more for people who enjoy the challenge, and also being "different". So depending on your goals, you might even just decide to be happy with what you've alreafy got going, but if you do wanna go aero- it will still be here waiting for ya ...

 

[cubelite]

Hi there
been reading the thread - good stuff.
Actually spoke with Steve from Cloudtops a few months ago, I was thinking of this same set up. Glad to see I'm not the only one crazy like that.
Here is the thing I have been wondering:
Is it worth it?
For now I am running a hybrid Aero/NFT set up, (AKA "Stinkbud" System), and the results are rather spectacular. Setting up a true high pressure set up as discussed will require significant more money and effort.
Those speaking from experience, would you say the yield is proportionally better, equal to the amount of effort put in? Or is there a different less obvious benefit?
I certainly don't lack the desire or dedication, but I can't help but wonder- are we fixing a problem that isn't, making a simple thing more complicated?
What's your take?

Hey guys, I've skimmed through several threads but still haven't found anyone discussing the yield and quality of the plants in HPA vs LPA. I can go with a low pressure system using a fountain pump and some drip irrigation misters for about 70 bucks for pump, nozzles, and tubing. The pump for an HPS is about $150-200, but then you have to add solenoids, power supply, timers, etc. I'm not by any means put off by the difficulty, and in fact more intrigued by it, but more curious if its worth the time and money on top of what I intend on using. This system only needs to work for about 12 months before I move, dismantle it, and will be unlikely to grow again in the near future.

Currently I've built a 4'x8' grow room/closet. It is well insulated, I'm now working on the ventilation system and need to figure out the watering system. The LPA concept will be a mix between a tote DWC and aeronautics. The fountain pump will be in a 15 Gal tote and feed 2 totes with about 3 plants using 4 misters per tote.

Anyone have any advice?

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Hey Cubelite- HPA is really cool and for tinkerers. I have been having alot of fun with it myself. But on your time schedule, I would just go with something simpler- the added benefits may be a few weeks or even a month sooner harvest, but on a single run and considering it will take longer to put together and learn how to use it- I would just go with what's simpler. You can always give it a shot in the future when you're ready... Also- just to clarify, you can't use it "on top" of any other style- one of the main points is the root structure that develops due to very short mist cycles, if you used any sort of LPA alongside it- it would never give any benefit. I don't know if that's exactly what you meant, but incase it was i thought I'd address it. Good luck and you'll definitely be better off with something simpler in my opinion. HPA probably takes almost a year to fully understand, build properly, and then fine tune. Once you've achieved that however, there is nothing more simple to maintain or cost effective in my opinion. You could run 8 plants or so off a solar 20 watt panel, and perhaps 10 gallons of water per week, using very little nutes and only checking the res once per week when you refill it- there is a prize for all the work eventually.

 

[DIYer]

so im curious to know if anyone ever tried those 4023 nozzles? there was talk of them in this thread a few months ago,.. anyone give um a go? ..and if so, im wondering at what PSI you used um at.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

so im curious to know if anyone ever tried those 4023 nozzles? there was talk of them in this thread a few months ago,.. anyone give um a go? ..and if so, im wondering at what PSI you used um at.

Not sure which those are- the red cloudtops?

 

[Atomizer]

so im curious to know if anyone ever tried those 4023 nozzles? there was talk of them in this thread a few months ago,.. anyone give um a go? ..and if so, im wondering at what PSI you used um at.

If everyone had waited for someone else to do the R&D no one would have a system running.
Risk some cash, spend some time testing it and then post the results so others can benefit from your efforts

 

[DIYer]

Not sure which those are- the red cloudtops?

you know exactly what 4023's i'm talking about, if not, you need to cut back on the weed because you're forgetting what you just read and replied to. How you ever going to feed the world being so scatterbrained, lol..

If everyone had waited for someone else to do the R&D no one would have a system running.
Risk some cash, spend some time testing it and then post the results so others can benefit from your efforts

Nooooo, wouldn't make any sense at all to ask those who were so high on the 4023's a few months ago, if they found anything out. We can't all be like TB and blow $1000 for what amounts to 2 cool nozzles. Not to mention its the weekend, can't much order them today, might as well ask till Monday.

 

[polymath]

way too many winky faces in this thread

 

[foresakenlion]

I will now interject to solve this little nonsense. All of you have good intentions however some of you are trying to reinvent a wheel, others are trying to take the wheels concepts and innovate on them actively with knowledge of the wheel. The ones trying to reinvent this Aeroponic wheel are being fools, before we go further let us define Aeroponics scientifically. Aeroponics is droplet sizes 5-50 microns as determined by NASA the NIS & Biocontrols a company owned by Richard Stoner the commercial father of Aeroponic technology, the guy on the news and in magazines and newspapers with his name attached to the invention in the commercial market.

Scientists in a lab developed the method, Stoner then packaged it into a TURNKEY solution for the sciences and their academy, that is why NASA and the NIS helped him, he was developing a product for their community, for their usage.

On the Biocontrols website they have the details of both the original Genesis machine, and the generic description of the components required, they also have a list of features on their now version five machine which if someone wanted to replicate for personal use would be perfectly legal at least in my country, however trying to relabel it and sell it and profit may be an issue at some point. Who really knows what happened to Atomix? Perhaps they got a cease and desist from AgriHouse?

Regardless here is an image of the features, most of you already incorporate 90% sans effluent management and filtration.

View attachment 2382549

The big ticket items are the hydro controller, and the environmental controller, I've seen some solid state models for maintaining coral/fish tanks that have nearly every feature you need in hydroponics from controlling powerful lights to maintaining heaters/cooling systems, look into those, if someone has figured out the effluent solution post it here.

The people innovating btw, use these designs as your rock.

Past that do know NASA NIS BIOCONTROLS have proven ANY restriction of the stem causes stunting, they have a unique plant holder that's merely a hole that by its dimensions as the plant gets heavier tilts to support its self in the air, with no media ever, from seed to full grown in air.

If someone can find the exact timing on either of the two sites mentioned. Reinventing the feeding timing wheel is again foolhardy.

They have a CD-ROM called the Aeroponic Encyclopedia with How To on building your system and exclusive interviews with NASA and their methods and techniques, it's $99.99.

I was not aware of it before having never really explored their site completely but considering that has the most information on this subject in one concise format, it's well worth it.