do you think astronauts like buzz aldrein and gordon cooper would lie???

[OGEvilgenius]

I disagree. Arguments against many types of deities are sound and should not be rejected out of hand. Any deity that interferes into our physical world and reads our thoughts and answers prayers and is omnipotent and omniscient and omnibenevolent can all be dismissed for various logical reasons. Then we have inductive arguments that although not infallible are strong arguments against more vague grand designer type deities, even more deistic ones. Of course reasonable people never claim anything as absolute but I would have no problem with someone that merely says there is no god, as long as he realizes difference between high degree of certainty and absolute truth.

There are no strong arguments against deities in general. You have no higher degree of certainty than anyone.

 

[OGEvilgenius]

You mean even though we are atheists our belief systems differ? Imagine that.

I suppose if I think it through you are right. I have always felt that skepticism leads us to two possibilities.

Yet Einstein was an extremely skeptical and thoughtful guy... he concluded God exists. But I doubt if he would argue it as reality.

There is either no god, or god hides. A reality with a hiding god could be indistinguishable from one with no god at all, which makes a hiding god useless, yet gives both conclusions the same degree of certainty. But I suppose a hiding god would be considered superfluous by Occam's razor, which means the responsible skeptical outlook is to give more weight to the conclusion of no god.

Or they can reasonably conclude there is a God. And there is nothing you can really argue logically against it because there's no evidence one way or the other. Beliefs are funny things.

Even so, for the sake of accurately reflecting my opinion, I would never say there is no god. I say there is probably no god. I personally feel the need to indicate the lack of absolution. When a skeptic such as in your example says there is no god, isn't he simply leaving the 'probably' part to be implied? Would a skeptic ever say, baring new evidence there is no god and I can't be wrong?

That's reasonable, your first two positions are not though. And yeah, some folks do say there is no God and that they are absolutely correct.

 

[cannabineer]

Einstein didn't conclude God exists ... that suggests the availability of a rationally compelling argument. Rather, he believed it. cn

 

[OGEvilgenius]

Einstein didn't conclude God exists ... that suggests the availability of a rationally compelling argument. Rather, he believed it. cn

Semantics. You get my point.

 

[mindphuk]

Belief we cannot know if God exists or not but willing to accept evidence either way = agnostic. Atheist = belief God doesn't exist (not absence of belief, which I'm not sure really even exists). Theist = belief God does exist.

Incorrect. Theist was correct. Theist is someone that believes a god exists. An a-theist is without theism. He is one that does not believe that a god exists. Says nothing about accepting evidence. A theist already believes he has the evidence, hence why he believes. An atheist does not think the theist has substantiated his claim, which is why he still does not believe. An anti-theist is one that has a belief that a god does not exist. An active belief in the non-existence of something is different than passive disbelief in a claim.

Agnosticism is about knowledge, not belief. So an agnostic thinks a god is unknowable. He is answering a different ontological question, rather than, "do you believe?" he is answering, "can we know god?".

 

[cannabineer]

Semantics. You get my point.

I don't think it's mere semantics. Your formulation had consequences to which I alluded (the capacity to derive God from ultimately mundane information). Were that possible, atheism would become a much less defensible position than I see it being at present.

I'm a bit more interested in option 2 from post 42. I have found it impossible to discern definite or likely activity or effect by a divine agency upon nature. So I tend to believe that either God is a complete fiction or is entirely disengaged. As Heisenberg points out, Occam's Razor allows us to treat an absentee-God condition as identical to one without any God at all.
That does not give me the right to declare that there is no God, or even that i am correct in figuring that my seeing nothing of God means there is nothing to see of God. However it does make me very unlikely to pay serious attention to anyone who'd try to tell me what God wants of us. While I am uncertain about the presence of a detectable, consequential God, I am practically (if not to a philosophically rigorous standard) certain that religions that specify God's nature and intent and rules for human thought and behavior ... are entirely cynical artifacts: memes, and thus vectors of serious psychic harm. Pathogens of the mind. Jmo. cn

 

[cannabineer]

Belief we cannot know if God exists or not but willing to accept evidence either way = agnostic. Atheist = belief God doesn't exist (not absence of belief, which I'm not sure really even exists). Theist = belief God does exist.

I thought similarly myself. But Mindphuk and Heisenberg get the credit for making me examine that. I am learning that I am possibly agnostic (I was definite just months ago) because I misunderstood it to mean what you said. I used it for the "undecided" category, which is better served by "weak atheist". The link explains better than i can. cn
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

 

[mindphuk]

There are no strong arguments against deities in general. You have no higher degree of certainty than anyone.

That's why I mentioned arguments against specific deities. I cannot argue against something of which I have no definition. I cannot argue against the ambiguous.

How are you able to tell me my level of certainty? I am quite sure that inductive arguments are valid, the 'no white crows' argument. The fact that in spite of many years and many people intently investigating the question of whether any god exists, every single negative outcome adds some small degree of support to the idea that there is no such thing as a god. However, like Russel's teapot, I cannot prove non-existence but my degree of certainty for the lack of such a thing is quite high. Using your metrics, a god is just as likely as faeries and flying spaghetti monsters.

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

No one thinks pilots, or anyone, is crazy because they saw something unknown. If I see something running through the woods and can't tell what it is, am I crazy? The problem comes when you jump from "unexplained" to "explained by aliens". Just as I would be wrong to say the unexplained thing I saw in the woods is explained by Bigfoot. Anyone who makes this leap of logic must show valid reason for doing so. Pilots are no exception, and although they are trained to be in the air, they are not trained to recognize all the tricks of perception and logic that are inherit to the human experience. Anecdotal information is enough to begin inquiry or investigation, but is not enough to draw conclusions. (there is good reason for this standard that I would be happy to explain and demonstrate)

If I were to go on to say Bigfoot regularly kidnapped me and experiments on me while we have sex, you might think I am delusional. Without any evidence to back it up, you would be right to think that. It is the responsible conclusion unless and until proper evidence contradicts it.

So your premise is muddled and flawed which diminishes the apprehension of the conclusion, which is, "it must be bad".

I realize you were stoned and rambling and I have no problem with that. Just thought Id offer some critical thought.

hahaha man you jump on these topics like Mel Gibson on a black jew! very quick to start labelling and dissecting what people do and what made them come to the conclusion you find so hard to come to.

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

i dont sit here with my books. its general nathan twineing i think thats how its spelled lol. i wonder though so pilots may not not be trained for all ilusions or tricks of light or human perception ect. but they spend alot of time in the sky. and some scientists that dont can say it was your head eyes playingtricks on you . lmao sorry HEISENBERG you seem like a debunker kind of guy and i wonder if you even believe in god. i bet you don't am i right. i can explain my reasons of interrest in this matter. im not sure either of what i saw minds play tricks right even more young ones. i have been curius since i was ten takeing out the trash. seen a star moveing slowly across the sky. i dont know what it was satilite maybe but i was scared and went inside .i just dont know. so

Dude, yes! lol I seen some crazy shit myself, just on 420 actually, craziest shit I seen so far.. I suggest you look up more often, these kind of things cant go un noticed forever, I suggest going somewhere that the city lights cant effect the sky.

 

[DoctorSmoke]

Dude, yes! lol I seen some crazy shit myself, just on 420 actually, craziest shit I seen so far.. I suggest you look up more often, these kind of things cant go un noticed forever, I suggest going somewhere that the city lights cant effect the sky.

i seen a number of stars moving in the sky, but watching a star and it moves towards a plane (red blinking light) then zip back at twice the speed. my friend seen it too and said "thats sick their going after fucking planes".

same night i was watching 2 stars, i thought 1 was vibrating or moving like it was doing a wobble, then both stars shoot towards eachother, 1th star took the place of the 2nd star, the 2nd star kept moving across the sky and didnt stop. they were very close to eachother so i was able to see both at the same time clearly and not something from the corner of my eye. anyone ever see the orange/red orb thats 3 times bigger than that big bright star in the sky then watch it implode while it moves across the sky?

i tell you seeing is believing, go stargazing. some nights nothing happens but u will get lucky and look up and see something moving in about 20 mins. within the last year i seen more UFOs than shooting star. i swear that big damn bright star in the sky is a space ship, i just havent caught it moving yet lol.

 

[DoctorSmoke]

btw i have a crazy idea, but i want to see if anyone also think some stars in the sky are actually UFOs pretending to be stars. it involves a math formula, 2 ppl and some communication and a measuring device like a sexton (that instrument that sailors use to pinpoint their location using the sun).

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

btw i have a crazy idea, but i want to see if anyone also think some stars in the sky are actually UFOs pretending to be stars. it involves a math formula, 2 ppl and some communication and a measuring device like a sexton (that instrument that sailors use to pinpoint their location using the sun).

I thought of that idea too, that aliens are making their space ships look like stars, I dont want it to be true though, because thats so damn confusing for us. We dont know if its a extraterrestrial or a Godly matter... Personally, I believe its a Godly matter (but Im sure aliens have something to do with it too, also sure that some try to look like stars)... That big bright star you are talking about is the North Star, everything revolves around it and its lined up with the earth so it appears that it never moves... If you look above the North Star theres other stars that appear to be forming a Fibonacci Spiral (Found throughout nature, google it) also if you look around the sky you will see that theres a lot of straight and curved lines if you connect the dots. My theory is that the stars are starting to form geometric patterns in order to prepare for something new. (Heres why geometric patterns are important, note it says that aliens also fancy these geometric patterns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7GJ-8SY068) so Im guessing that shit is gunna start to get crazy when the patterns become more clear... I've also seen one of the brighter stars move towards two other stars and form a perfect triangle before taking off at light speed beyond the other two stars... Anyways, back to the aliens. I only seen one flying light in the sky that was for sure an alien space craft and that was on 420. It was a line of evenly spaces lights that flew like a flock of geese in an arrow formation, but then it started squirming around rapidly, it looked exactly like a worm spazzing out, flying through space (or perhaps closer to earth) it was nuts!

 

[DoctorSmoke]

I thought of that idea too, that aliens are making their space ships look like stars, I dont want it to be true though, because thats so damn confusing for us. We dont know if its a extraterrestrial or a Godly matter... Personally, I believe its a Godly matter (but Im sure aliens have something to do with it too, also sure that some try to look like stars)... That big bright star you are talking about is the North Star, everything revolves around it and its lined up with the earth so it appears that it never moves... If you look above the North Star theres other stars that appear to be forming a Fibonacci Spiral (Found throughout nature, google it) also if you look around the sky you will see that theres a lot of straight and curved lines if you connect the dots. My theory is that the stars are starting to form geometric patterns in order to prepare for something new. (Heres why geometric patterns are important, note it says that aliens also fancy these geometric patterns http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7GJ-8SY068) so Im guessing that shit is gunna start to get crazy when the patterns become more clear... I've also seen one of the brighter stars move towards two other stars and form a perfect triangle before taking off at light speed beyond the other two stars... Anyways, back to the aliens. I only seen one flying light in the sky that was for sure an alien space craft and that was on 420. It was a line of evenly spaces lights that flew like a flock of geese in an arrow formation, but then it started squirming around rapidly, it looked exactly like a worm spazzing out, flying through space (or perhaps closer to earth) it was nuts!

the only thing i seen like that was a swarm of stars i seen as a kid, they flew around eachother in the night sky. 6-8 of them flew around in straight lines slow down then stop, change direction progress faster slow down stop, they all did this at once in 1 part of the sky, i watched for 10 mins and went back to bed, i havent seen those lights again till 2 years ago.

anyway i told the teacher at school the next because kids were talking about shooting stars, i guess at that time there was meteor showers. not sure if i scared the teacher or thought i was lying. thought i seen shooting stars but now i know they UFOs. anyway it is possible that meteor showers is destroyed space craft.

 

[Chief Walkin Eagle]

the only thing i seen like that was a swarm of stars i seen as a kid, they flew around eachother in the night sky. 6-8 of them flew around in straight lines slow down then stop, change direction progress faster slow down stop, they all did this at once in 1 part of the sky, i watched for 10 mins and went back to bed, i havent seen those lights again till 2 years ago.

anyway i told the teacher at school the next because kids were talking about shooting stars, i guess at that time there was meteor showers. not sure if i scared the teacher or thought i was lying. thought i seen shooting stars but now i know they UFOs. anyway it is possible that meteor showers is destroyed space craft.

I think your too dead set on aliens, of course they do exist and must have a reason for hanging around Earth, but the stars are of a different nature than extraterrestrials... Yes, stars moving would seem impossible because we only know them as flaming balls of gas, but theres a reason why so many ancient cultures found ways to map the stars, truth lies in the stars!.. Im not much of an astronomer myself, I pretty much just know the consolations of the zodiac and some of the special information encoded in them.