True HP Aero For 2011

This is a question for everyone with established set ups: How much water is "wasted", now I am asking for a rough and I mean rough :wink: percentage?
 
BflexNJshore said:
This is a question for everyone with established set ups: How much water is "wasted", now I am asking for a rough and I mean rough :wink: percentage?
Click to expand...

In a perfectly dialed in system there would be practically no wastewater. In general I would lose a gallon or 2 a day at most. In the veg period when the roots are adjusting you might lose a bit more, so it possible to consider recirculating just for that short period. There are alot of variables, but I think the answer you are looking for is very little waste. I did not use any more water than when recirculating and making weekly res changes with other hydro methods. Not too mention being able to use much lighter nute levels, so in the end, DTW is a money saver in HP aero, and of course not having to make ppm/ph adjustments is really nice.
 
Trichy Bastard said:
In a perfectly dialed in system there would be practically no wastewater. In general I would lose a gallon or 2 a day at most. In the veg period when the roots are adjusting you might lose a bit more, so it possible to consider recirculating just for that short period. There are alot of variables, but I think the answer you are looking for is very little waste. I did not use any more water than when recirculating and making weekly res changes with other hydro methods. Not too mention being able to use much lighter nute levels, so in the end, DTW is a money saver in HP aero, and of course not having to make ppm/ph adjustments is really nice.
Click to expand...

Three months of research = Free
Food grade aeroponic setup= $1200
Nutrients = $90
Not having to pull your hair out over constant pH changes = priceless
 
So I finally am getting this system dialed in, now a popular problem is appearing. Mister drip with the tefen mister (red cloudtop, ecologic technologies). I know there has been debate/drama and I dont recall what the end results and suggestings. I tested with just one mister (tried a few different ones) right near the solenoid and it still drips. Waiting to hear back from the guy at cloudtops for a response.
 
I was wasting very little last run, pretty much a solid .5/3-4. This time around I'm wasting more trying to get penetration, but it's just not working. I'm gonna go ahead and say I don't think this style of aeroponics is suitable for large plants. The roots keep on swelling no matter much room you give em, to a point where they inevitably block other parts of the root structure from getting fed. My root ball is bigger around than my arms, and while the exterior roots are flourishing, the center of that thing is dry. I think it was DIYer that was fighting about this, and he’s kinda right, lol. I think AA could do better, but I still think the interior of a large root mass suffers as it swells. I realize this might piss some people off, and excite others. This is just what I’m witnessing with my setup. I’m not perfect, but I don’t do stupid shit like neglect to calibrate pens/temps/light/etc… Actually haven’t had a single dryout slip-up this time around, lol. I ran 2 of the bios in the rig with 2 digs for a couple weeks just to see if I could get deeper penetration, but didn’t see a noticable dif. I’m toying with 4 sec on time to see if that helps, but I switched over to 12/12 yesterday because I was concerned about the sustainability of such a giant root mass. I feel like I’m begging for some sort of catastrophy. I still like fuzzy roots, but I think that when I rip this apart again (2 months :) ), that I’m gonna keep that chamber design intact but run a drip down to a shallow large footprint DWC leaving vertical root zone space open still, and when things get well established, misters can be incorporated on a separate res pointing down from the top. Lower the level of your water in your DWC basin to allow some root exposure as you start to bring the mist. Business as usual, but now the fuzzies grow up from the DWC roots into the very empty space above. I can’t wait to try it.

Shit, I got distracted.

What solenoids are you using? Cause I only notice dripping when (I run 2 nozzles per solenoid) when they aren’t on plane. Using one nozzle at the solenoid and still getting drip… Sucky! Is it a single drop, or more that one? The bios do a fair amount of dripping themselves. At least mine do. :)

EDIT: Fuck, am I trying to build a lifted frogger?
 
BflexNJshore said:
So I finally am getting this system dialed in, now a popular problem is appearing. Mister drip with the tefen mister (red cloudtop, ecologic technologies). I know there has been debate/drama and I dont recall what the end results and suggestings. I tested with just one mister (tried a few different ones) right near the solenoid and it still drips. Waiting to hear back from the guy at cloudtops for a response.
Click to expand...

To be sure, when you say "right near the solenoid" do you mean there is a length of tubing connected that is farther away after the solenoid past the nozzle that is close to it possibly leading to other nozzles? What matters is that the total amount of tubing after the solenoid is small (ideally a few inches max) because what will happen is the tubing will expand under pressure and then send more drips to the misthead as it depressurizes after the solenoid closes. If you only have a few inches of tubing going to the solenoid and no more than that, then your solenoid could be not seating all the way closed or you are using something other than 1/4" JG/pex tubing that might strectch more or hold a larger volume. There are some red nozzles with check valves at cloud tops for about a buck more that you have to special request if needed the Cav's thread mentioned.
 
Mike Young said:
I was wasting very little last run, pretty much a solid .5/3-4. This time around I'm wasting more trying to get penetration, but it's just not working. I'm gonna go ahead and say I don't think this style of aeroponics is suitable for large plants. The roots keep on swelling no matter much room you give em, to a point where they inevitably block other parts of the root structure from getting fed. My root ball is bigger around than my arms, and while the exterior roots are flourishing, the center of that thing is dry. I think it was DIYer that was fighting about this, and he’s kinda right, lol. I think AA could do better, but I still think the interior of a large root mass suffers as it swells. I realize this might piss some people off, and excite others. This is just what I’m witnessing with my setup. I’m not perfect, but I don’t do stupid shit like neglect to calibrate pens/temps/light/etc… Actually haven’t had a single dryout slip-up this time around, lol. I ran 2 of the bios in the rig with 2 digs for a couple weeks just to see if I could get deeper penetration, but didn’t see a noticable dif. I’m toying with 4 sec on time to see if that helps, but I switched over to 12/12 yesterday because I was concerned about the sustainability of such a giant root mass. I feel like I’m begging for some sort of catastrophy. I still like fuzzy roots, but I think that when I rip this apart again (2 months :) ), that I’m gonna keep that chamber design intact but run a drip down to a shallow large footprint DWC leaving vertical root zone space open still, and when things get well established, misters can be incorporated on a separate res pointing down from the top. Lower the level of your water in your DWC basin to allow some root exposure as you start to bring the mist. Business as usual, but now the fuzzies grow up from the DWC roots into the very empty space above. I can’t wait to try it.

Shit, I got distracted.

What solenoids are you using? Cause I only notice dripping when (I run 2 nozzles per solenoid) when they aren’t on plane. Using one nozzle at the solenoid and still getting drip… Sucky! Is it a single drop, or more that one? The bios do a fair amount of dripping themselves. At least mine do. :)

EDIT: Fuck, am I trying to build a lifted frogger?
Click to expand...

Mike, it's good to hear the feedback from your systems- we all learn from it as a group. The only thing to ponder is the pics and results that have been demonstrated from others who've managed to get the penetration and results you speak of. There must still be some variable that can get you there. Perhaps try one more run, all Bios from the start. I'd really be interested to hear if it makes a difference. It will require a little leap of faith on your end, but you've come so far, might as well be able to say you went all the way before deciding to try anything else is my logic. Especially because something so small as a nozzle change is easy to try. BTW- did you notice any difference on the bio side of things vs. the cloud tops, and also did you run them from the start, or after the mushrooming had already began? Remember it was only so many months ago you were frustrated at getting fuzz, and look where you are now. It would seem fair to assume there is one more notch you might be able to kick this up now.
 
Mike Young said:
I was wasting very little last run, pretty much a solid .5/3-4. This time around I'm wasting more trying to get penetration, but it's just not working. I'm gonna go ahead and say I don't think this style of aeroponics is suitable for large plants. The roots keep on swelling no matter much room you give em, to a point where they inevitably block other parts of the root structure from getting fed. My root ball is bigger around than my arms, and while the exterior roots are flourishing, the center of that thing is dry. I think it was DIYer that was fighting about this, and he’s kinda right, lol. I think AA could do better, but I still think the interior of a large root mass suffers as it swells. I realize this might piss some people off, and excite others. This is just what I’m witnessing with my setup. I’m not perfect, but I don’t do stupid shit like neglect to calibrate pens/temps/light/etc… Actually haven’t had a single dryout slip-up this time around, lol. I ran 2 of the bios in the rig with 2 digs for a couple weeks just to see if I could get deeper penetration, but didn’t see a noticable dif. I’m toying with 4 sec on time to see if that helps, but I switched over to 12/12 yesterday because I was concerned about the sustainability of such a giant root mass. I feel like I’m begging for some sort of catastrophy. I still like fuzzy roots, but I think that when I rip this apart again (2 months :) ), that I’m gonna keep that chamber design intact but run a drip down to a shallow large footprint DWC leaving vertical root zone space open still, and when things get well established, misters can be incorporated on a separate res pointing down from the top. Lower the level of your water in your DWC basin to allow some root exposure as you start to bring the mist. Business as usual, but now the fuzzies grow up from the DWC roots into the very empty space above. I can’t wait to try it.

Shit, I got distracted.

What solenoids are you using? Cause I only notice dripping when (I run 2 nozzles per solenoid) when they aren’t on plane. Using one nozzle at the solenoid and still getting drip… Sucky! Is it a single drop, or more that one? The bios do a fair amount of dripping themselves. At least mine do. :)

EDIT: Fuck, am I trying to build a lifted frogger?
Click to expand...


I am using the STC solenoids, I think the same ones TB uses. Its so wierd that after all my research, my parts list is so similar to TB's. I only realized this when went back to the early part of the thread yesterday. There is definate leakage, its more of a dribble but I'd say a solid one drop. I tried the DIG nozzle and used the white bodied one with the purple tip and it was pissing water after the solenoid closed.

Trichy Bastard said:
To be sure, when you say "right near the solenoid" do you mean there is a length of tubing connected that is farther away after the solenoid past the nozzle that is close to it possibly leading to other nozzles? What matters is that the total amount of tubing after the solenoid is small (ideally a few inches max) because what will happen is the tubing will expand under pressure and then send more drips to the misthead as it depressurizes after the solenoid closes. If you only have a few inches of tubing going to the solenoid and no more than that, then your solenoid could be not seating all the way closed or you are using something other than 1/4" JG/pex tubing that might strectch more or hold a larger volume. There are some red nozzles with check valves at cloud tops for about a buck more that you have to special request if needed the Cav's thread mentioned.
Click to expand...
Right near the solenoid= Pressure regulator(90psi)>3 ft of 1/4 JG>solenoid>6 inches 1/4 JG> red cloudTOP (just one) with the CV and the screen>dribble>me temporarily unhappy but determined to solve this problem

I even pulled out the screen to check the CV and the ball is there. Maybe I got a bad batch (I ordered 15...lol)?
 
BflexNJshore said:
I am using the STC solenoids, I think the same ones TB uses. Its so wierd that after all my research, my parts list is so similar to TB's. I only realized this when went back to the early part of the thread yesterday. There is definate leakage, its more of a dribble but I'd say a solid one drop. I tried the DIG nozzle and used the white bodied one with the purple tip and it was pissing water after the solenoid closed.


Right near the solenoid= Pressure regulator(90psi)>3 ft of 1/4 JG>solenoid>6 inches 1/4 JG> red cloudTOP (just one) with the CV and the screen>dribble>me temporarily unhappy but determined to solve this problem

I even pulled out the screen to check the CV and the ball is there. Maybe I got a bad batch (I ordered 15...lol)?
Click to expand...

Very strange, with the description you give, you should not get dripping even without the CV... One drop? Perhaps a single drop is just dripping off the impingement pin which is unavoidable, but the fact you say the dig nizzles piss, then it makes me wonder. Do you have any other solenoids you could test to make sure it's not faulty? One thing to check is there is an inlet side, and an outlet side designated with an arrow to show flow direction on the bottom of the solenoid, make sure it is hooked up right with the arrow pointing towards the nozzle. Other than that- perhaps a few second video of the setup and dripping could be posted?
 
Trichy Bastard said:
Mike, it's good to hear the feedback from your systems- we all learn from it as a group. The only thing to ponder is the pics and results that have been demonstrated from others who've managed to get the penetration and results you speak of. There must still be some variable that can get you there. Perhaps try one more run, all Bios from the start. I'd really be interested to hear if it makes a difference. It will require a little leap of faith on your end, but you've come so far, might as well be able to say you went all the way before deciding to try anything else is my logic. Especially because something so small as a nozzle change is easy to try. BTW- did you notice any difference on the bio side of things vs. the cloud tops, and also did you run them from the start, or after the mushrooming had already began? Remember it was only so many months ago you were frustrated at getting fuzz, and look where you are now. It would seem fair to assume there is one more notch you might be able to kick this up now.
Click to expand...

I'm not experiencing poor results. In fact quite the opposite. I'm gonna get close to my 1lb goal, but probably not yet. I would like to point out that my root ball would fit neither in your aerolife box nor TF's sinks. So to say that I'm doing what's already been done is a bit of an insult. I also believe that in most cases these rigs turn into nft hybrids as soon as the roots come in contact with the chamber, or silk screen for that matter. My roots are in contact with air, that's it. I'm just trying to ponder a way to fix a problem that has not yet been addressed, as it seems to be a new one.
 
if you look at the pic of some HP roots in this link you can see that the roots that come off the netpot do not spread out much but drop to the bottom of the container then spread out and then begin to crawl the walls. the roots to the left in the pic are the only roots that come off the netpot the rest off the roots you see have not come down from the top but have gone up from the floor to cover the walls. these root pics grew trees in 22 gallon containers. if the roots are not coaxed to drop to the bottom from the start then they will just spreadout and create a ball that just keeps getting bigger and bigger and eventually chokes the interior roots mist supply off. theres no way to really correct a big massive spreadout rootball from the netpot once it has started as its a self perpetuating thing where once it starts it continues. its not about the bios penetrating any beter than the cloudtops or digs the trick is to lower the misters down low in the chamber from the start so the roots will follow the mist supply down and then once the roots hit the floor then the misters can be brought up again but not way to the top. the problem is that a dig or cloudtop nozzle wil have a hard time getting any mist up to the netpot when it is dropped down to the bottom of the container because the mist mostly falls from the nozzle downward where as an impingment nozzle throws the mist outwardly into the open space better. these are my experiences and some may benifit and others might disagree but one can only describe ones own experiences as thats all we really have in the end.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=3314284#post3314284
 
That makes total sense, and I am not doubting your trees. I've read about your crazy yields. I obviously didn't train my roots down like mentioned. I still think I'm going to have to try out some sort of hybrid system. I think I can make my idea work, and in my head I foresee excellent results. I'm still having fun, so at least I got that goin for me. Thanks for the input!

TF: Would you agree that when roots come into contact with walls/floor/screen etc, that there is some added nft benefits going on there? And that could be considered a hybrid?
 
Mike Young said:
I'm not experiencing poor results. In fact quite the opposite. I'm gonna get close to my 1lb goal, but probably not yet. I would like to point out that my root ball would fit neither in your aerolife box nor TF's sinks. So to say that I'm doing what's already been done is a bit of an insult. I also believe that in most cases these rigs turn into nft hybrids as soon as the roots come in contact with the chamber, or silk screen for that matter. My roots are in contact with air, that's it. I'm just trying to ponder a way to fix a problem that has not yet been addressed, as it seems to be a new one.
Click to expand...

I never said, or meant to imply "poor results" I was only trying to give some input on what might be the issue you are reporting as being something you see as a problem. Anyway, TF is the man on the subject, and he's already said his piece. I appreciate this whole conversation and feel I've picked up a little knowledge from it. I don't care about holding onto any beliefs I have, but only want to know the truth and keep an open mind. I really hope any of the ways you do things will perhaps offer even new insights. If we all do things exactly the same way, then we will never learn anything new, so it's good in some ways we all put our own spin on things. The problem in the past is people seem to veer too far off the path and then give up. I think your roots puffing out are similar to Cavadge's, who also used similar nozzles, that's my only point. I want you to have good results just as much as I want for myself. :)
 
Mike Young said:
That makes total sense, and I am not doubting your trees. I've read about your crazy yields. I obviously didn't train my roots down like mentioned. I still think I'm going to have to try out some sort of hybrid system. I think I can make my idea work, and in my head I foresee excellent results. I'm still having fun, so at least I got that goin for me. Thanks for the input!

TF: Would you agree that when roots come into contact with walls/floor/screen etc, that there is some added nft benefits going on there? And that could be considered a hybrid?
Click to expand...
yea to a small degree Mike with walls and floors but i doubt very little with silk screen. in all truth the roots that lay on a sloped floor would probably get the greatest NFT benefit but the walls very little as the roots seem to stack up there and not allow much to reach the wall to run down. in any case it has to be a very slight NFT effect because the flow is just to little to act like a full NFT effect. and the roots just dont develop the same structure as a full NFT system would. Im starting to move away from Silk Screen and going strictly with sloped bottoms as it seems these systems always have better and healthier roots systems it appears to me. cant say yield was much different just had more robust root systems. Nothing wrong with hybred systems and im always looking for some new twist also ive got an idea for a Hybred using the bioballs but i havent been able to test it yet but am excited to try, but right now im assembling a new AA system to see if i can finally master it.
 
tree farmer said:
yea to a small degree Mike with walls and floors but i doubt very little with silk screen. in all truth the roots that lay on a sloped floor would probably get the greatest NFT benefit but the walls very little as the roots seem to stack up there and not allow much to reach the wall to run down. in any case it has to be a very slight NFT effect because the flow is just to little to act like a full NFT effect. and the roots just dont develop the same structure as a full NFT system would. Im starting to move away from Silk Screen and going strictly with sloped bottoms as it seems these systems always have better and healthier roots systems it appears to me. cant say yield was much different just had more robust root systems. Nothing wrong with hybred systems and im always looking for some new twist also ive got an idea for a Hybred using the bioballs but i havent been able to test it yet but am excited to try, but right now im assembling a new AA system to see if i can finally master it.
Click to expand...

I would've imagined that AA rig of yours was pretty spot on. Always room for improvement I guess. Sure would be nice if you ever decided to another thread documenting a build. ;)

My temporary fix to the problem was pretty simple. 1.5 gallon bucket w/air stone under my root-gina.

WP_001171.jpg
 
This is how I 'solved' it. It's grating from overhead florescent light panels

I have no problems trimming the roots so they never reach the bottom

Mist heads have been repositioned since taking this pic.


Pic of pod with grate and mist heads.jpg
 
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