When do you get a soul??

Shannon Alexander

Well-Known Member
I believe that speculation (based on statistics) is an alright way to entertain yourself with what may happen in the future so we can attempt to steer us away from the mistakes of the past, but really that is just hindsight, maybe even wisdom perhaps could be garnered from it but most individuals I imagine have pretty accurate hindsight... but speculation on what might be now if something different happened in the past is completely futile...

There are way too many unknown variables...
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
I thought it sounded like the 5%.

The church of Islam
Universal Flag

The Universal Flag is the group's official trademark, which consists of a sun, moon, star, and the number seven. According to its doctrine, it represents the Original Family as the following:

  • Seven—The number held sacred in many ancient and modern traditions. In Supreme Mathematics, the number seven represents God, that is, the Original Man, not the mystery god of many organized religions.

  • Sun—Another symbol of the male, Knowledge, the Truth, and the Light. The points around the sun symbolize the expanding consciousness.

  • Moon—The crescent moon symbolizes the women and wisdom.

  • Star—The five-pointed star symbolizes understanding and children as the beginning of a new sun.
The eight outer rays (points) of the Sun have also been spoken as representative of the core components Nation of Gods and Earths’ teachings:

  1. Supreme Mathematics
  2. Supreme Alphabet
  3. Student Enrollment (1–10)
  4. Lost & Found Muslim Lesson #1 (1–14)
  5. Lost & Found Muslim Lesson #2 (1–40)
  6. English Lesson C-1 (1–36)
  7. Actual Facts
  8. Solar Facts
The last six of these bodies of lessons (1–10 through Solar Facts) are collectively called 120.

...hey man, thanks for posting this :) Catholicism brought 'Mary' into reality to square the circle, so to speak. I like that idea because provides 'worth' to the earth and shows that would should take care of it.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
RE: if were not animals, what are we?

I see the question slightly different.

I see us as being more than animals. You wouldnt call a table a piece of wood. Or even a cow as a piece of meat. Why call Humans animals? I except this may be seen as philosophical semantics but for me the distinction is clear.
Why call humans animals?

Because that's what we are defined as in biology. We're not plantae, fungi, protoctista, prokaryota, or monera.

We are animals in the exact same way that a dog or a cat is an animal. You should understand this is a scientific fact, not my opinion. There are many explanations as to why humans feel they're above the animal kingdom that are much too long to get into now, but research that topic for yourself and you'll understand why.

Also, what would it take for you to consider an animal on this vague level of consciousness? Would it have to start speaking English? Because I think most animals do share some form of communication, equally as complex, just different from ours. Animals that communicate via echo location is arguably more complex! Where is the line from Animal > Human?
 

Kaendar

Well-Known Member
To whoever it was that said animals are separate from humans and don't operate on a level higher than their own environment, what about chimps or bonobo's? What about dolphins or orca's? I can think of a dozen different species of animal that very clearly, and demonstrably, have higher cognitive abilities than simple basic instinct. Even some insect species show signs of higher intelligence. I find it very hard to believe that humans are the only animal species on the planet that understand emotion or introspect.

Having said that, if consciousness is your only standard for a soul, you should include those species that show signs of consciousness, or exactly define what you mean by 'consciousness', which is a somewhat vague term.

Also, if we're not animals, what are we?
Consciousness is a hard thing to explain. Its almost out of the realm of words. Ill think of a way better way to explain.. as far as your last question, we are animals, but we are beings as well. We were given dominion over all creatures and this entire planet.
 

Moebius

Well-Known Member
I can already see a problem with that definition as it would have to include those humans that lack the ability to think of abstract concepts or ponder their own mortality, like severely mentally handicapped people or people who go through traumatic brain injuries. They're still awake, alive, but would you call them 'unconscious'? Doesn't unconscious mean the lights go out? You're unconscious when you get KO'd (literally knocked out), and when you go to sleep.
Again another definition, there are many...

When I say I believe humans are different than animals, I don't presume to say better.... I believe humans have a destiny that's impossible to know. I think we'll populate the stars and do great stuff like that.
 

Kaendar

Well-Known Member
Upon dissection of the human brain, aside from some jelly-type matter, nerve fibers and perhaps neurotransmitters, all of which come into play in our thought and motor functions, there emerges not a shred of evidence of a substance that produces a sense of humor, the appreciation of art, or the ability to differentiate between good and evil. Even if not the precise method, at least a clue as to how these human qualities are produced would, I think, have been in order at this advanced stage of the twenty-first century. But nothing! Zilch! This seems to fly in the face of the principle a "whole is equal to the sum of its parts:" whereas the human brain seems to be the seat of consciousness, its biological components do not seem to possess the potential of producing such a quality.


Is it possible that "consciousness" actualy is a separate entity and has no physical roots? And can it's effect on humans be taken as proof that such an entity exists? "Black holes," despite the fact that they cannot be directly detected, are universally accepted as science.


A black hole in astronomy is a celestial object of such extremely intense gravity that it attracts everything near it and prevents even light from escaping. Because light and other forms of energy and matter are permanently trapped inside a black hole, it can never be observed directly. It can only be detected by the effect of its gravitational field on nearby objects. Yet, as undetectable as they are, black holes are considered as real and as scientific as planets and stars.


In the same way, consciousness can be "proven" to have its own existence by the effect it has on humans, giving them qualities such as reasoning abilities, appreciation of art, humor, etc. Unlike a black hole, however, since we cannot prove the existence of any physical substance or process that can produce such features, consciousness takes on a unique existence -- an effect without a physical origin. Call it what you will, but this precisely coincides with the age-old concept of a "soul."


I realize that a soul in itself may not be a scientific concept. But when you can prove its features and qualities as surely as you can prove a black hole's effect on its environment, you have effectively proven its existence. Unlike a black hole, it's origin does not appear to be physical, but, very much like a black hole, it definitely reveals itself within its environment.


Unscientific, at this point, would be to deny that an entity exists that gives human beings their unique intellectual features. There is no question that it exists. The only question is, what do you call it? If "soul" is to religious sounding for you, call it what you will, but there is definitely something at work here that is not of a physical nature.


If you don't believe a "soul" has been proven here, you may want to start questioning things like black holes. Nobody will prove them to you any better.
 

Kaendar

Well-Known Member
Again another definition, there are many...

When I say I believe humans are different than animals, I don't presume to say better.... I believe humans have a destiny that's impossible to know. I think we'll populate the stars and do great stuff like that.
Yes, humans arent better than animals, but we are more than them. Our life goes beyond the physical realm here on this earth. A part of us was here before and will be when it ends. Animals on the other hand, die and decompose and continue on in the cycle of life.
 

Moebius

Well-Known Member
...hey man, thanks for posting this :) Catholicism brought 'Mary' into reality to square the circle, so to speak. I like that idea because provides 'worth' to the earth and shows that would should take care of it.
You do know the 5%'ers are supremely racists. They believe white people were made by an evil black scientist called 'Yacoob'.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I believe that speculation (based on statistics) is an alright way to entertain yourself with what may happen in the future so we can attempt to steer us away from the mistakes of the past, but really that is just hindsight, maybe even wisdom perhaps could be garnered from it but most individuals I imagine have pretty accurate hindsight... but speculation on what might be now if something different happened in the past is completely futile...

There are way too many unknown variables...
Right, but couldn't you go "well, if today in _________ with a lot less people claiming to be religious, it's a lot more peaceful than in _________ with a high level of religiosity, I don't see why if in the past, the same thing would have likely happened..."? It's pretty clear to me that the catalyst for history's more unfortunate events were because of, or in the name of an organized religion. We see exactly the same thing today, we just don't have statistics (because they would have executed you for taking records) of much of ancient time.

On this note, I'm in agreement that had we lost religion a lot sooner in human history, human history would have been a lot less violent and a lot better for more people. It's right up there with $, imo, to be the greatest threat to human survival.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
We can observe the consequences of black holes: there are astrophysical phenomena that could hardly be called anything else. The analogy doesn't really work.

Also, requiring that consciousness be carried by a discrete substance is an unfair limit. Science treats of oh so much more. Pattern is not a substance. cn
 

Moebius

Well-Known Member
Why call humans animals?

Because that's what we are defined as in biology. We're not plantae, fungi, protoctista, prokaryota, or monera.

We are animals in the exact same way that a dog or a cat is an animal. You should understand this is a scientific fact, not my opinion. There are many explanations as to why humans feel they're above the animal kingdom that are much too long to get into now, but research that topic for yourself and you'll understand why.

Also, what would it take for you to consider an animal on this vague level of consciousness? Would it have to start speaking English? Because I think most animals do share some form of communication, equally as complex, just different from ours. Animals that communicate via echo location is arguably more complex! Where is the line from Animal > Human?
Words evolve and words can have dual meaning. An animal can be used to describe a person without civilised behaviour etc etc etc. Or a creature.
I refer back to my statement, we don't call a table a piece of wood of a Raphael statue a lump of stone. Logic and our eyes tell us that its more than the sum of its spare parts.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Words evolve and words can have dual meaning. An animal can be used to describe a person without civilised behaviour etc etc etc. Or a creature.
I refer back to my statement, we don't call a table a piece of wood of a Raphael statue a lump of stone. Logic and our eyes tell us that its more than the sum of its spare parts.
I believe a more accurate analogy would be "table > wood" "human > water/muscle/bone, etc." as wood is what a table is made of. Or maybe "table > plant" "human > animal". Phylogenetics deals with classifying organisms into which respective kingdoms of life.
 

Moebius

Well-Known Member
I believe a more accurate analogy would be "table > wood" "human > water/muscle/bone, etc." as wood is what a table is made of. Or maybe "table > plant" "human > animal". Phylogenetics deals with classifying organisms into which respective kingdoms of life.



I think therefore I am
 

Shannon Alexander

Well-Known Member
Right, but couldn't you go "well, if today in _________ with a lot less people claiming to be religious, it's a lot more peaceful than in _________ with a high level of religiosity, I don't see why if in the past, the same thing would have likely happened..."? It's pretty clear to me that the catalyst for history's more unfortunate events were because of, or in the name of an organized religion. We see exactly the same thing today, we just don't have statistics (because they would have executed you for taking records) of much of ancient time.

On this note, I'm in agreement that had we lost religion a lot sooner in human history, human history would have been a lot less violent and a lot better for more people. It's right up there with $, imo, to be the greatest threat to human survival.
Most things that are done in the name of religion and not truly because of religion, people once upon a time couldn't really read and they relied on the teachers of religion to give them the truth of the religion, which even to this day does not happen in most churches I have been to and I'm assuming it is the same in some synagogues and mosques etc... preachers twist words to suit their own ideals and influence people that are gullible... Corrupt people have risen to power the world over all through history regardless of religion or not, and people have gone to war all over the world for no religious reasons what so ever...
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Upon dissection of the human brain, aside from some jelly-type matter, nerve fibers and perhaps neurotransmitters, all of which come into play in our thought and motor functions, there emerges not a shred of evidence of a substance that produces a sense of humor, the appreciation of art, or the ability to differentiate between good and evil. Even if not the precise method, at least a clue as to how these human qualities are produced would, I think, have been in order at this advanced stage of the twenty-first century. But nothing! Zilch! This seems to fly in the face of the principle a "whole is equal to the sum of its parts:" whereas the human brain seems to be the seat of consciousness, its biological components do not seem to possess the potential of producing such a quality.
We do have a pretty good idea of how the brain works, chemical combinations and electrical impulses. We know what parts do what, and what will happen if you introduce a variety of different chemicals into the brain (I've personally tested this, many times).

Is it possible that "consciousness" actualy is a separate entity and has no physical roots? And can it's effect on humans be taken as proof that such an entity exists? "Black holes," despite the fact that they cannot be directly detected, are universally accepted as science.

I don't see how consciousness could be anything but something physical inside the brain. "Consciousness" still hasn't been clearly defined, so it's an ambiguous question to begin with.

Black holes can be directly observed and measured.

A black hole in astronomy is a celestial object of such extremely intense gravity that it attracts everything near it and prevents even light from escaping. Because light and other forms of energy and matter are permanently trapped inside a black hole, it can never be observed directly. It can only be detected by the effect of its gravitational field on nearby objects. Yet, as undetectable as they are, black holes are considered as real and as scientific as planets and stars.
Detecting an object in space by observing it's gravitational effects is direct observation. Visual observation is not the only way to directly detect something.

In the same way, consciousness can be "proven" to have its own existence by the effect it has on humans, giving them qualities such as reasoning abilities, appreciation of art, humor, etc. Unlike a black hole, however, since we cannot prove the existence of any physical substance or process that can produce such features, consciousness takes on a unique existence -- an effect without a physical origin. Call it what you will, but this precisely coincides with the age-old concept of a "soul."
I'll refer you back to my earlier point, what about severely handicapped humans who don't meet your standards for 'consciousness' (still undefined) or highly intelligent animals that do? Do those humans not have souls? Did God pass out animal souls, too?

I realize that a soul in itself may not be a scientific concept. But when you can prove its features and qualities as surely as you can prove a black hole's effect on its environment, you have effectively proven its existence. Unlike a black hole, it's origin does not appear to be physical, but, very much like a black hole, it definitely reveals itself within its environment.
The black hole analogy has false premises, as does your soul theory.

Unscientific, at this point, would be to deny that an entity exists that gives human beings their unique intellectual features. There is no question that it exists. The only question is, what do you call it? If "soul" is to religious sounding for you, call it what you will, but there is definitely something at work here that is not of a physical nature.
I disagree and you've failed to present any convincing evidence to support your theory.

If you don't believe a "soul" has been proven here, you may want to start questioning things like black holes. Nobody will prove them to you any better.
Tell me, why does your standard for proof consist of only visual confirmation? Using that same logic, oxygen, electrons, pressure, literally a million different things don't exist either. We can directly observe the effects of a black hole, we are as scientifically certain as is currently possible that they exist. As for souls, you are debating their existence with a dude on a cannabis forum, what does that tell you?
 
Top