Cloning - How Many Times????

Z

zatoichi2

Well-Known Member
I originally learned from books, back in the 1980's. Then, they said it was bad to clone too many times, screwing up the genetics, making the plant weaker, hermaphrodites, etc..

What is the modern advice on how many times to clone???

Thanks!!!
 
In theory you can clone from the mother plant as many times as the mother plant produces clonable parts. Indefinately basically. I think genetic science and understanding has come a loooong way from the 80's. While in theory a clone of a clone of a clone may eventually weaken, it wouldn't be a quick process. Hence why its important to have the mother the shining example and source.

How many times to clone? Knock yourself out, there are some people out there who have cloned generation after generation after generation after generation without any particular problem.
 
It is logical to think that "generation after generation - blah -blah - blah", would cause some genetic breakdown. But that's just human skeptisism overlooking the facts. The fact is that "clones" are really just cuttings of the same plant, regardless of how many "generations" - its still the same plant. Therefore they have exactly the same genetics. There is no pollenization, not even self pollenization, so there is no phenotype variation or DNA mutation of any kind; because - - - - (let's all say it together!) - - - - "It's the same plant".

I think the name "clone" (instead of "cutting") has something to do with the way people are skeptical about genetic longevity. The word "Clone" conjures up images of labratories and "DNA Experiments", where horrible mutations happen - just like in the movies!
 
tenthirty said:
It may be the same plant, but they all grow as individuals unfortunately.
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That's true, they are subject to thier respective environments. But the point is they have the same gentics - the exact same DNA! For example, a slice of skin off your toe has the same DNA as a slice of skin off your ear. Your brother (or sister) will have, very nearly, the same DNA; but not quite!
 
There is the constant debate if genetric drift occurs. I never kept mothers longer than a year for the possibility of genetic drift occuring. I have heard others having the same mother for years and not experiencing genetic drift. Imo I still have the notion of the idea of making a copy of a template on a xerox machine. Copy the same template over and over again you definately see a decline of the quality of the copy. But like I said imo dont have scientific fact to approve or disapprove gentic drift from cloning off a mother plant.
 
That's why I said "It is logical to think that way". Like you said, a Xerox copy, of a copy, etc., etc. will deffinately degrade, no doubt! But a cutting of a plant is a continuation of the same plant, not a "copy". There is no "copying" of DNA, so there is no degradation - there is just a continuation of growing the same plant (in a different spot)!

I understand that there is a difference of opinion on this subject, but I wasn't aware that there was a real "Debate". It seems like a one sided argument; on the one side you have the people like me and the guy who has been growing the same "Plant" for 23 years - and on the other side you have people that say "It just don't seem right!". I'm really not trying to stir up an argument; it's just that I've never heard any explaination, or reason (that made any sense) why the DNA would degrade based on generations of cloning.
 
T.H.Cammo said:
That's why I said "It is logical to think that way". Like you said, a Xerox copy, of a copy, etc., etc. will deffinately degrade, no doubt! But a cutting of a plant is a continuation of the same plant, not a "copy". There is no "copying" of DNA, so there is no degradation - there is just a continuation of growing the same plant (in a different spot)!

I understand that there is a difference of opinion on this subject, but I wasn't aware that there was a real "Debate". It seems like a one sided argument; on the one side you have the people like me and the guy who has been growing the same "Plant" for 23 years - and on the other side you have people that say "It just don't seem right!". I'm really not trying to stir up an argument; it's just that I've never heard any explaination, or reason (that made any sense) why the DNA would degrade based on generations of cloning.
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Thanks for the info!!!! Also everyone else's comments!!!! Could crappy conditions effect the DNA of subsequent clones?

Like I said, I am working with schwag, to learn. I do not plan on continuing the genetics, except for learning purposes, and I have made many mistakes. Just wondering if dehydration, high PH, and other screw up's with real seeds and plants, could effect future generations.
 
My research on this subject shows that a disease free plant can mother for 25 years with no loss of potency in flowered clones.
Keeping a mother healthy (including occasional root pruning),or keep making clone replacement moms is FTW eitherway.
If I ever grew a fem seed?For me it would be clone only due too fem process.
If you have a favorite mom?Make seeds with a desired male with one of your mom clones.If you unfortunatley lose a mom you will have her seeds.
Looks to me you can clone forever as long you do not have a cell damaging virus or disease.

Only negative effect with bad enviroment /ph/etc is a mom that does not produce healthy clone sites and clones taken root poorly or die off imho.This situation is asking for a degenerative disease.
 
zatoichi2 said:
- - - - Could crappy conditions effect the DNA of subsequent clones? - - - - Just wondering if dehydration, high PH, and other screw up's with real seeds and plants, could effect future generations.
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The conditions you have mentioned all amount to nothing more than "bad growing conditions". They would, of course, affect the growth of any plant growing under those conditions, but have no effect on the DNA.

Please understand, I'm not saying that nothing could ever change the DNA that gets passed along to future generations of clones. I'm just saying that the "Cloning Process" itself has nothing to do with degrading DNA.


It is my understanding that the only natural occurance that can alter a plant's DNA would be some sort of debilitating plant disease - or perhaps high levels of radiation. It would be interesting to hear from a bona fide Botonist on this subject.
 
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