"A rational individual should abstain from voting."

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
Why Vote?

By STEPHEN J. DUBNER and STEVEN D. LEVITT
Published: November 6, 2005
A Swiss Turnout-Boosting Experiment

Within the economics departments at certain universities, there is a famous but probably apocryphal story about two world-class economists who run into each other at the voting booth.

"What are you doing here?" one asks.

"My wife made me come," the other says.

The first economist gives a confirming nod. "The same."

After a mutually sheepish moment, one of them hatches a plan: "If you promise never to tell anyone you saw me here, I'll never tell anyone I saw you." They shake hands, finish their polling business and scurry off.

Why would an economist be embarrassed to be seen at the voting booth? Because voting exacts a cost - in time, effort, lost productivity - with no discernible payoff except perhaps some vague sense of having done your "civic duty." As the economist Patricia Funk wrote in a recent paper, "A rational individual should abstain from voting."

The odds that your vote will actually affect the outcome of a given election are very, very, very slim. This was documented by the economists Casey Mulligan and Charles Hunter, who analyzed more than 56,000 Congressional and state-legislative elections since 1898. For all the attention paid in the media to close elections, it turns out that they are exceedingly rare. The median margin of victory in the Congressional elections was 22 percent; in the state-legislature elections, it was 25 percent. Even in the closest elections, it is almost never the case that a single vote is pivotal. Of the more than 40,000 elections for state legislator that Mulligan and Hunter analyzed, comprising nearly 1 billion votes, only 7 elections were decided by a single vote, with 2 others tied. Of the more than 16,000 Congressional elections, in which many more people vote, only one election in the past 100 years - a 1910 race in Buffalo - was decided by a single vote.

But there is a more important point: the closer an election is, the more likely that its outcome will be taken out of the voters' hands - most vividly exemplified, of course, by the 2000 presidential race. It is true that the outcome of that election came down to a handful of voters; but their names were Kennedy, O'Connor, Rehnquist, Scalia and Thomas. And it was only the votes they cast while wearing their robes that mattered, not the ones they may have cast in their home precincts.

Still, people do continue to vote, in the millions. Why? Here are three possibilities:

1. Perhaps we are just not very bright and therefore wrongly believe that our votes will affect the outcome.

2. Perhaps we vote in the same spirit in which we buy lottery tickets. After all, your chances of winning a lottery and of affecting an election are pretty similar. From a financial perspective, playing the lottery is a bad investment. But it's fun and relatively cheap: for the price of a ticket, you buy the right to fantasize how you'd spend the winnings - much as you get to fantasize that your vote will have some impact on policy.

3. Perhaps we have been socialized into the voting-as-civic-duty idea, believing that it's a good thing for society if people vote, even if it's not particularly good for the individual. And thus we feel guilty for not voting.

But wait a minute, you say. If everyone thought about voting the way economists do, we might have no elections at all. No voter goes to the polls actually believing that her single vote will affect the outcome, does she? And isn't it cruel to even suggest that her vote is not worth casting?

This is indeed a slippery slope - the seemingly meaningless behavior of an individual, which, in aggregate, becomes quite meaningful. Here's a similar example in reverse. Imagine that you and your 8-year-old daughter are taking a walk through a botanical garden when she suddenly pulls a bright blossom off a tree.

"You shouldn't do that," you find yourself saying.

"Why not?" she asks.

"Well," you reason, "because if everyone picked one, there wouldn't be any flowers left at all."

"Yeah, but everybody isn't picking them," she says with a look. "Only me."

In the old days, there were more pragmatic incentives to vote. Political parties regularly paid voters $5 or $10 to cast the proper ballot; sometimes payment came in the form of a keg of whiskey, a barrel of flour or, in the case of an 1890 New Hampshire Congressional race, a live pig.

Now as then, many people worry about low voter turnout - only slightly more than half of eligible voters participated in the last presidential election - but it might be more worthwhile to stand this problem on its head and instead ask a different question: considering that an individual's vote almost never matters, why do so many people bother to vote at all?


The answer may lie in Switzerland. That's where Patricia Funk discovered a wonderful natural experiment that allowed her to take an acute measure of voter behavior.

The Swiss love to vote - on parliamentary elections, on plebiscites, on whatever may arise. But voter participation had begun to slip over the years (maybe they stopped handing out live pigs there too), so a new option was introduced: the mail-in ballot. Whereas each voter in the U.S. must register, that isn't the case in Switzerland. Every eligible Swiss citizen began to automatically receive a ballot in the mail, which could then be completed and returned by mail.

From a social scientist's perspective, there was beauty in the setup of this postal voting scheme: because it was introduced in different cantons (the 26 statelike districts that make up Switzerland) in different years, it allowed for a sophisticated measurement of its effects over time.

Never again would any Swiss voter have to tromp to the polls during a rainstorm; the cost of casting a ballot had been lowered significantly. An economic model would therefore predict voter turnout to increase substantially. Is that what happened?

Not at all. In fact, voter turnout often decreased, especially in smaller cantons and in the smaller communities within cantons. This finding may have serious implications for advocates of Internet voting - which, it has long been argued, would make voting easier and therefore increase turnout. But the Swiss model indicates that the exact opposite might hold true.

But why is this the case? Why on earth would fewer people vote when the cost of doing so is lowered?

It goes back to the incentives behind voting. If a given citizen doesn't stand a chance of having her vote affect the outcome, why does she bother? In Switzerland, as in the U.S., "there exists a fairly strong social norm that a good citizen should go to the polls," Funk writes. "As long as poll-voting was the only option, there was an incentive (or pressure) to go to the polls only to be seen handing in the vote. The motivation could be hope for social esteem, benefits from being perceived as a cooperator or just the avoidance of informal sanctions. Since in small communities, people know each other better and gossip about who fulfills civic duties and who doesn't, the benefits of norm adherence were particularly high in this type of community."

In other words, we do vote out of self-interest - a conclusion that will satisfy economists - but not necessarily the same self-interest as indicated by our actual ballot choice. For all the talk of how people "vote their pocketbooks," the Swiss study suggests that we may be driven to vote less by a financial incentive than a social one. It may be that the most valuable payoff of voting is simply being seen at the polling place by your friends or co-workers.

Unless, of course, you happen to be an economist.


Stephen J. Dubner and Steven D. Levitt are the authors of "Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything." More information on the academic research behind this column is at
www.freakonomics.com.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/ma...pagewanted=all
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
Electoral college is a major player.

Us citizens, our votes dont count. They just give us a sense of accomplishment

The lack of education is what is killing us. Many do not know what the EC is and the role or process it has in presidential elections
 

racerboy71

bud bootlegger
Electoral college is a major player.

Us citizens, our votes dont count. They just give us a sense of accomplishment
i just said the same thing in a thread the other day about voter reg tampering.. who cares.. there have been three cases of a president losing the popular vote, yet winning by the electoral vote, gwb being the last of the lot...

kind of hard to think that voting means shit when a person can still be elected president after losing the popular vote..
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
I know. It sucks ass especially cause we know its a sham.

Some on here do believe our vote counts plenty, i had mentioned tis as well on another thread and some dude basically said i was dumb for thinking our vote dont count.

I aint wasting my time with that monopoly anymore



i just said the same thing in a thread the other day about voter reg tampering.. who cares.. there have been three cases of a president losing the popular vote, yet winning by the electoral vote, gwb being the last of the lot...

kind of hard to think that voting means shit when a person can still be elected president after losing the popular vote..
 

chrishydro

Well-Known Member
Electoral college is a major player.

Us citizens, our votes dont count. They just give us a sense of accomplishment

The lack of education is what is killing us. Many do not know what the EC is and the role or process it has in presidential elections
This quote is exactly correct you do not need the majority of votes in the US to win the election. That is what makes it such a tough race this year. My opinion is a good percentage of dems will not vote for Romney this year instead they wont vote at all. Romney will win the popular vote for sure on this basis but still will be tough election night to squeez in the the EC votes. Going to be intresting.
 

racerboy71

bud bootlegger
I know. It sucks ass especially cause we know its a sham.

Some on here do believe our vote counts plenty, i had mentioned tis as well on another thread and some dude basically said i was dumb for thinking our vote dont count.

I aint wasting my time with that monopoly anymore
yup, complete sham.. the article i was reading said someone could become president after winning only i think it was 8 out of 50 states.. that means in 42 other states they lost, but still had enough electoral votes to win.. wtf, that shit really put me off..
i do vote, but only so i can bitch about the person who wins imo..
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
Lol, i dont and still curse at them!

Im just hoping my state party changes to dems so they can decriminalize mj.

And hopefully a pot friendly douchebag gets the ovsl office



yup, complete sham.. the article i was reading said someone could become president after winning only i think it was 8 out of 50 states.. that means in 42 other states they lost, but still had enough electoral votes to win.. wtf, that shit really put me off..
i do vote, but only so i can bitch about the person who wins imo..
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
If voting doesn't count, then why are Republicans trying so desperately to prevent people from doing so? If voting doesn't make a difference, then why are folks spending hundreds of millions of dollars to convince you to vote a certain way? I don't know the exact number but I heard that there will be a billion dollars spent on this election. I see numbers as hig as $50 dollars per voter being spent, why is your vote worth 50 bucks if it really doesn't "count"?
 

racerboy71

bud bootlegger
What is the electoral college?
First of all, it's not really a college.
During presidential election years, each state party chooses a group of electors (usually party loyalists) who've pledged their votes to that party's presidential candidate. This may come as a surprise, but on the first Tuesday in November, when we all head off to the polls, we don't vote for directly for the presidential candidate. We vote for the slate of electors who go on to vote at the electoral college. So, for example, because Governor Bush's slate won the plurality of the vote in Texas, his group of electors will represent that state. And in December, the winning slates gather for state meetings, where the votes for president are officially cast.


Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,55439,00.html#ixzz23pphH6IB

sorry for the cnp job, but it's a pretty good read on the ec imho... taken from here..http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,55439,00.html
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
Im pretty sure it was this guy who told me on that other thread i was dumb



The ec determines who the pres is going to be. Sorry to burst your bubble, but our vote dont count. Im telling you, they try to make us feel like we our the main concern, which most believe and few know it is untrue.



If voting doesn't count, then why are Republicans trying so desperately to prevent people from doing so? If voting doesn't make a difference, then why are folks spending hundreds of millions of dollars to convince you to vote a certain way? I don't know the exact number but I heard that there will be a billion dollars spent on this election. I see numbers as hig as $50 dollars per voter being spent, why is your vote worth 50 bucks if it really doesn't "count"?
 

racerboy71

bud bootlegger
If voting doesn't count, then why are Republicans trying so desperately to prevent people from doing so? If voting doesn't make a difference, then why are folks spending hundreds of millions of dollars to convince you to vote a certain way? I don't know the exact number but I heard that there will be a billion dollars spent on this election. I see numbers as hig as $50 dollars per voter being spent, why is your vote worth 50 bucks if it really doesn't "count"?
i wonder the same thing canndo.. please explain how anyones vote can count when we're not really voting for a president?? i will say voting for non presidential races is a bit different and that one persons vote counts, but as far as presidential races, our votes don't count...
if all we all doing is voting to represent our state as either rep. or dem, and the electoral college is supposed to go by w/e state they represent, but there is nothing stopping them from voting for a party that isn't in the majority for their respected state...

please explain how my thinking is wrong..
 

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
Yea, i would say local and county level, our vote does some what count.

National president level, not so much.




i wonder the same thing canndo.. please explain how anyones vote can count when we're not really voting for a president?? i will say voting for non presidential races is a bit different and that one persons vote counts, but as far as presidential races, our votes don't count...
if all we all doing is voting to represent our state as either rep. or dem, and the electoral college is supposed to go by w/e state they represent, but there is nothing stopping them from voting for a party that isn't in the majority for their respected state...

please explain how my thinking is wrong..
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
yup, complete sham.. the article i was reading said someone could become president after winning only i think it was 8 out of 50 states.. that means in 42 other states they lost, but still had enough electoral votes to win.. wtf, that shit really put me off..
i do vote, but only so i can bitch about the person who wins imo..
the quickest way to 270 is to win 11 states: CA, TX, FL, GA, IL, MI, PA, NY, NJ, NC, and OH.

but that combination would be all but impossible to achieve.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Im pretty sure it was this guy who told me on that other thread i was dumb



The ec determines who the pres is going to be. Sorry to burst your bubble, but our vote dont count. Im telling you, they try to make us feel like we our the main concern, which most believe and few know it is untrue.
the electors just vote for whoever the people do.

your vote does count.
 

racerboy71

bud bootlegger
the quickest way to 270 is to win 11 states: CA, TX, FL, GA, IL, MI, PA, NY, NJ, NC, and OH.

but that combination would be all but impossible to achieve.
i'm still kind of lost here ub... just trying to understand..

let's say the worst case scenario happened, and someone managed to take all 11 of those states that are the most populated and therefore get the most electoral college votes... i know texas is nore then likely always going to vote repub, but this is just a worst case scenario like i said..

a presidential candidate wins those 11 states, and therefore takes the majority of the electorial college's vote, how can you say the people in the lesser populated states votes count as much as those who happen to live in one of the 11 more populated states?? or even counted at all?
 

racerboy71

bud bootlegger
name a case when that happened and it changed the outcome of the election ?
i'm not saying it's ever happened, but to act like it couldn't is kind of silly imo...

again, all we do is vote for what our electoral college is supposed to do, not what they actually are going to do...
 

londonfog

Well-Known Member
i'm not saying it's ever happened, but to act like it couldn't is kind of silly imo...

again, all we do is vote for what our electoral college is supposed to do, not what they actually are going to do...
Well when it happen let me know.. I will be ready to fight with you...until then bongsmilie and vote
 
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