Forgiveness

[Padawanbater2]

[youtube]wO0eRFe-xQA[/youtube]

Interesting video, fascinating moment. If you don't know who Gary Ridgway is, he was known as the Green River killer, and was convicted of 48 different murders, confessed to 71, and estimates range to 90+ during the 80's and 90's.

What do you think of the idea of forgiveness. Clearly it's a powerful tool, but what is it exactly? Is forgiving the person who brutally murdered your daughter even real? Can that happen? Is it worth anything?

The emotion Ridgway showed towards this man tells me something got through, what was it?

In an otherwise exceptionally emotional moment, idk, I thought this was kind of beautiful in a way... Weird mix of emotions..

 

[tyler.durden]

I can't imagine ever forgiving someone of such an evil act. I know some say psychopaths can't control what they do, but I couldn't care less for that reasoning. It is strange that Ridgway displayed that emotion, they're not supposed to be able to experience those feelings iirc. There was an episode of House where they were discussing how an unpleasant patient 'can't help it, it's not his fault' and Foreman replies, 'If he had malaria that wouldn't be his fault either, does that mean I should let him cough on me?'

 

[Padawanbater2]

I can't imagine ever forgiving someone of such an evil act. I know some say psychopaths can't control what they do, but I couldn't care less for that reasoning. It is strange that Ridgway displayed that emotion, they're not supposed to be able to experience those feelings iirc. There was an episode of House where they were discussing how an unpleasant patient 'can't help it, it's not his fault' and Foreman replies, 'If he had malaria that wouldn't be his fault either, does that mean I should let him cough on me?'

But what does it take to do something like the man in that clip did? Do you personally view that as courage, strength, anything like that? Or was it just something that doesn't really exist that he thinks does that gives him some sort of closure? And an even deeper question is, does it really matter if it is made up if it does give the man closure? Do real things really matter in the real world if we can use things that aren't real to help mend wounds, or otherwise close such emotional cases?

This is something that's long been on my mind, and imo, has a quite a bit to do with organized religion. "So what if it's false, it helps". Is there any weight to that statement?

 

[Krabby]

But what does it take to do something like the man in that clip did?

Faith.....

 

[Padawanbater2]

Faith.....

I'm not so sure, I'd be willing to bet other family members of victims were faithful..

I think it's something more, something not everyone has..

It looks like the man is genuinely forgiving. Perhaps it's because of his own moral code, but regardless, imo, if I were him, having seen Ridgway show such emotion would almost be enough... almost.

That moment in itself has shown me the power of forgiveness is much more personal, much more direct and gratifying than showing any hatred ever could. No reaction from the man would have left me bitter and resentful, him breaking down at the thought of one of the victims family members showing any kind of compassion towards the crime he committed is absolutely astonishing. I can't put into words the right way the emotions that run through me viewing that clip.. It's nowhere near justified, but in a different kind of way it's sort of liberating. Much the same way I'd assume it would be knowing the corpse of your missing kid was found would be (just saw an episode of "I almost got away with it" in which the killer confessed to the victims mother of the crime and she forgave him for his honesty and was no longer subject to always wondering what happened..).

 

[Seedling]

But what does it take to do something like the man in that clip did? Do you personally view that as courage, strength, anything like that? Or was it just something that doesn't really exist that he thinks does that gives him some sort of closure? And an even deeper question is, does it really matter if it is made up if it does give the man closure? Do real things really matter in the real world if we can use things that aren't real to help mend wounds, or otherwise close such emotional cases?

This is something that's long been on my mind, and imo, has a quite a bit to do with organized religion. "So what if it's false, it helps". Is there any weight to that statement?

That is exactly my sentiments towards religion. I personally don't believe there is a god, but if someone does, and then they go around doing good deeds, then basically that belief caused real world positive results! Another example is that I can stand by my kitchen chair and proclaim that I can cause that chair to move by thinking about it. The next point in time is that I actually physically move the chair. My thoughts were the CAUSE of the chair moving.

So yes, there is weight to that statement. I once watched a show on TV where a patient was in a hospital and the doctors tried everything to help the patient to no avail. They brought in a voodoo witch doctor to perform a ceremony in the hospital room. The patient was healed! Does it matter why the patient got better if the results were positive?? Even IF the patient's problems were all in their head, if you bring in a witch doctor and the patient is healed, then the witch doctor healed the person!

 

[ginjawarrior]

Forgiveness is much more about the person who's forgiving than the guilty party. The first couple had venom in them that will never go untill they forgive, the murderer took a piece of them when he killed their relative he holds power over them.
The old man in comparison had taken that piece of himself back and was in control of himself he didn't allow the murderer any power over him

Very good video

 

[tyler.durden]

But what does it take to do something like the man in that clip did? Do you personally view that as courage, strength, anything like that? Or was it just something that doesn't really exist that he thinks does that gives him some sort of closure? And an even deeper question is, does it really matter if it is made up if it does give the man closure? Do real things really matter in the real world if we can use things that aren't real to help mend wounds, or otherwise close such emotional cases?

This is something that's long been on my mind, and imo, has a quite a bit to do with organized religion. "So what if it's false, it helps". Is there any weight to that statement?

That is is interesting question, Pad. That old man, Rule, was able to forgive because of the delusion that his god wants him to do this. On the other hand, the bitter people who lost their loved ones in your video were convinced Ridgway is going to hell and they seem to be faithful, as well. In the bible, god is mostly vengeful and does not forgive as he invokes genocide on many peoples and sends anyone to hell that does not believe he is his own son and died for our sins. We all know that delusions can have physical benefit, from the comfort of prayer to the placebo effect in medicine. I'm of the mind that there is a price for that, and somewhere along the way your mind will short circuit with the misinformation that comforts it. My father was a real bastard and took great pleasure in abusing us kids both mentally and physically. We're all notably fucked up because of his actions and we all joke it's amazing that we're not in jail. All my life theists have encouraged me to forgive my father, but I cannot simply forgive or forget these things. Is it really a choice? Me saying that I forgive does not make me feel any differently even though I'm sure that I would be the beneficiary of this action. How does one simply forgive willfully awful acts without deluding oneself? I watched a Nova recently where scientists are working on an Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind type thing whereby a drug is used to wipe clean traumatic memories of war vets. It is working wonders in lab rats at this point, and is waiting for approval for human testing. This may be an answer for me at some point, and if anyone has any suggestions for me in the meantime of how to forgive, I'd love to hear them...

 

[ginjawarrior]

That is is interesting question, Pad. That old man, Rule, was able to forgive because of the delusion that his god wants him to do this. On the other hand, the bitter people who lost their loved ones in your video were convinced Ridgway is going to hell and they seem to be faithful, as well. In the bible, god is mostly vengeful and does not forgive as he invokes genocide on many peoples and sends anyone to hell that does not believe he is his own son and died for our sins. We all know that delusions can have physical benefit, from the comfort of prayer to the placebo effect in medicine. I'm of the mind that there is a price for that, and somewhere along the way your mind will short circuit with the misinformation that comforts it. My father was a real bastard and took great pleasure in abusing us kids both mentally and physically. We're all notably fucked up because of his actions and we all joke it's amazing that we're not in jail. All my life theists have encouraged me to forgive my father, but I cannot simply forgive or forget these things. Is it really a choice? Me saying that I forgive does not make me feel any differently even though I'm sure that I would be the beneficiary of this action. How does one simply forgive willfully awful acts without deluding oneself? I watched a Nova recently where scientists are working on an Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind type thing whereby a drug is used to wipe clean traumatic memories of war vets. It is working wonders in lab rats at this point, and is waiting for approval for human testing. This may be an answer for me at some point, and if anyone has any suggestions for me in the meantime of how to forgive, I'd love to hear them...

lets get religion out of this for a moment yeah the bible preaches forgiveness but it doesnt own it. and you certainly are not deluding yourself by doing it.

i dont know if you father is still about or not but i will say that to forgive him doesnt mean you have to be freinds with him, you dont have to see him or love him. you do not even have to tell him you forgive him. all you need to do is decide that he no longer has power over you and your emotions and that he's not worth your anger.

now of course this is easier said than done and your probably sat there now asking how. A good way to start is to see him for what he really is, a person that gets their kicks of of abusing children isnt what we should call a human being, people like that are pathetic excuses. more desverving of pity than anything

if you ever get to that stage then your very nearly there as you'l realise that such a pathetic pityful person like that just isnt worth the anger and you'l beable to let it go and replace it with a calm acceptance that you cannot change your past but you can own your future

its a weight on your shoulders that you have no idea the size of till its gone, and life in general will improve with its passing.

if you do see you father after that he will have nothing over you and he wil know it from the second you look into his eyes

 

[guy incognito]

Santa knows that he was naughty, but forgave him anyway.

 

[tyler.durden]

lets get religion out of this for a moment yeah the bible preaches forgiveness but it doesnt own it. and you certainly are not deluding yourself by doing it.

i dont know if you father is still about or not but i will say that to forgive him doesnt mean you have to be freinds with him, you dont have to see him or love him. you do not even have to tell him you forgive him. all you need to do is decide that he no longer has power over you and your emotions and that he's not worth your anger.

now of course this is easier said than done and your probably sat there now asking how. A good way to start is to see him for what he really is, a person that gets their kicks of of abusing children isnt what we should call a human being, people like that are pathetic excuses. more desverving of pity than anything

if you ever get to that stage then your very nearly there as you'l realise that such a pathetic pityful person like that just isnt worth the anger and you'l beable to let it go and replace it with a calm acceptance that you cannot change your past but you can own your future

its a weight on your shoulders that you have no idea the size of till its gone, and life in general will improve with its passing.

if you do see you father after that he will have nothing over you and he wil know it from the second you look into his eyes

Thank you, GW, for your caring post. My father passed away in 1989. Intellectually, I know that he was pathetic and was passing on the abuse that he himself endured as a child. I don't find that to be a credible excuse as I would never abuse my son whether the urge is there or not. I was divorced from my ex-wife while my son was almost a year old, and I had to learn to be a single father quickly. In situations where I was confused on what to do, I would think what my father would do in this instance and do the exact opposite. This turned out to be very effective, and it seems I learned to be a good father in spite of mine, as opposed to because of him. It would be great for me if I could forgive him and I would like release from these memories, I just don't know how. For me, it doesn't seem to be something I can decide to do anymore than I could decide to believe in a god. I haven't seen any specific techniques on how to do this, has anyone heard of them?

 

[ginjawarrior]

Thank you, GW, for your caring post. My father passed away in 1989. Intellectually, I know that he was pathetic and was passing on the abuse that he himself endured as a child. I don't find that to be a credible excuse as I would never abuse my son whether the urge is there or not. I was divorced from my ex-wife while my son was almost a year old, and I had to learn to be a single father quickly. In situations where I was confused on what to do, I would think what my father would do in this instance and do the exact opposite. This turned out to be very effective, and it seems I learned to be a good father in spite of mine, as opposed to because of him. It would be great for me if I could forgive him and I would like release from these memories, I just don't know how. For me, it doesn't seem to be something I can decide to do anymore than I could decide to believe in a god. I haven't seen any specific techniques on how to do this, has anyone heard of them?

you've held onto this for a long time and i dont think there is a one stop quick fix for this but that doesn't mean you cant get control back

dont ever try and excuse what happened. understand the reasons behind it by all means but there is no excuse.

you do seem to be some way there, you have broken the cycle and you wish none of the same for your son thats a big step. you mentioned that you have used what happened to you as guidance for your son have you ever tried thanking your father outloud for setting his goalposts at the opposite end of the field to your current goals? for setting out the mistakes that you never wish to make yourself?

are you able to forgive other people in life? from the minor things to the major?

 

[GreatwhiteNorth]

IMHO forgiveness is one of the most powerful things a human can experience, both from the giving end and the receiving end.
Almost 30 years ago I was wrestling with demons over my wife leaving me (for another man), my mother while being compassionate to me actually said that she hoped and prayed that my ex's life would turn from its current path (drugs, alcohol, prostitution etc...) and that she further wished her a happy life.

She floored me. At that precise second I saw the futility of my present attitude and what forgiveness was all about. There is no reason whatsoever for me to carry a grudge, an iota of hate or any other negative thoughts for persons whom have wronged me.
That moment stands out in my life and I have been a much happier person since that day because I (in my heart) forgave my ex, and like a popcorn fart in the wind my pity party was over. I even harbor nice thoughts/feelings for her even though I'd never trust her again.

 

[tyler.durden]

you've held onto this for a long time and i dont think there is a one stop quick fix for this but that doesn't mean you cant get control back

dont ever try and excuse what happened. understand the reasons behind it by all means but there is no excuse.

you do seem to be some way there, you have broken the cycle and you wish none of the same for your son thats a big step. you mentioned that you have used what happened to you as guidance for your son have you ever tried thanking your father outloud for setting his goalposts at the opposite end of the field to your current goals? for setting out the mistakes that you never wish to make yourself?

are you able to forgive other people in life? from the minor things to the major?

It seems ludicrous to me to thank my father for the abuse, I could say it out loud but it wouldn't be sincere. Kind of like a rape victim thanking their attacker for allowing them to know what healthy sex life is. My ability to forgive people is dependent on how severe the transgression and how often: if it's something minor and infrequent I'm easy to forgive, but break my trust in a major way more than twice, it's probably over. I have a high standard for friendship, which is probably why I only have four or five. I have as many buddies whom I don't expect much from, just for hanging or working out together. But, I've had no problem kicking people out of my life who don't show me the required respect, and once they're out they're out forever. My best friend is the only person to have broken my trust in a major way that made it back in to my life, and that process took almost a year. So, I guess I do have a problem with forgiving major transgressions...

 

[ginjawarrior]

It seems ludicrous to me to thank my father for the abuse, I could say it out loud but it wouldn't be sincere. Kind of like a rape victim thanking their attacker for allowing them to know what healthy sex life is. My ability to forgive people is dependent on how severe the transgression and how often: if it's something minor and infrequent I'm easy to forgive, but break my trust in a major way more than twice, it's probably over. I have a high standard for friendship, which is probably why I only have four or five. I have as many buddies whom I don't expect much from, just for hanging or working out together. But, I've had no problem kicking people out of my life who don't show me the required respect, and once they're out they're out forever. My best friend is the only person to have broken my trust in a major way that made it back in to my life, and that process took almost a year. So, I guess I do have a problem with forgiving major transgressions...

your not thanking your father for the abuse your thanking him for the (very) indirect guidance in how to be a good father to your son like it or not he was a big part in making you that good father. again forgiveness isnt about trusting someone who wrong you its about letting go of the anger you can never trust a person again while still forgiving them

i'm quite similar i have a very small group that are my close freinds and i have cut people off from that group but however badly they wronged me i dont hold a grudge rather than a feeling of indifference to what happens to them (that doesnt mean they're coming back tho)

you said before about doing the opposite to your father now im guessing he wasnt a forgiving guy?

 

[tyler.durden]

your not thanking your father for the abuse your thanking him for the (very) indirect guidance in how to be a good father to your son like it or not he was a big part in making you that good father. again forgiveness isnt about trusting someone who wrong you its about letting go of the anger you can never trust a person again while still forgiving them

I guess he was instrumental in making me who I am, and that includes being a good father, but I'm inclined to think that was because of my efforts. Statistically, I should be abusing my son because of what I experienced, so would it be fair to blame him if that were the case?

i'm quite similar i have a very small group that are my close freinds and i have cut people off from that group but however badly they wronged me i dont hold a grudge rather than a feeling of indifference to what happens to them (that doesnt mean they're coming back tho)

I actually wish nothing but good things for the people I've banished from my life, they were good people, just not for me. Maybe I can't do this with my father because he was not a good person?

you said before about doing the opposite to your father now im guessing he wasnt a forgiving guy?

You know, I really don't know if he was a forgiving guy. Iirc, hed always be the one fucking things up so it would be up to others to forgive him. I also put blame on my mother for staying with him even after counselors advised us not to do so. Even though we were great friends, my blaming her drove a wedge between us for months. One day she just broke down and cried and apologized for not being stronger, and that contrition was the catalyst I needed to finally forgive her. That healed us, and we're still great friends, although she is fading in a fog of advanced Alzheimer's I'm honored to take care of her. Maybe if my father had shown any regret for his actions I'd have an easier time with this process...

 

[ginjawarrior]

I guess he was instrumental in making me who I am, and that includes being a good father, but I'm inclined to think that was because of my efforts. Statistically, I should be abusing my son because of what I experienced, so would it be fair to blame him if that were the case?

you are the one that took the shit he gave you and changed it into something good you can own that while still acknowledging the source. as to blame him if things had gone bad well thats making excuses and you never excuse the inexcusable

I actually wish nothing but good things for the people I've banished from my life, they were good people, just not for me. Maybe I can't do this with my father because he was not a good person?

the wishing good things for the people that have wronged you is the essence of forgiveness. but people do not need to be good to get forgiveness just unworthy of the time spent angry of them

You know, I really don't know if he was a forgiving guy. Iirc, hed always be the one fucking things up so it would be up to others to forgive him. I also put blame on my mother for staying with him even after counselors advised us not to do so. Even though we were great friends, my blaming her drove a wedge between us for months. One day she just broke down and cried and apologized for not being stronger, and that contrition was the catalyst I needed to finally forgive her. That healed us, and we're still great friends, although she is fading in a fog of advanced Alzheimer's I'm honored to take care of her. Maybe if my father had shown any regret for his actions I'd have an easier time with this process...

closure is always a big thing in this but as he is no longer about to give it to you maybe you need to search it out yourself.

whilst it was a long time ago and this might not be for everyone have you ever thought about attending a support group/ forum for this just to gain that little bit of extra perspective/ take a step back and look at it differently it maybe just enough for you to get the closure

 

[tyler.durden]

you are the one that took the shit he gave you and changed it into something good you can own that while still acknowledging the source. as to blame him if things had gone bad well thats making excuses and you never excuse the inexcusable


the wishing good things for the people that have wronged you is the essence of forgiveness. but people do not need to be good to get forgiveness just unworthy of the time spent angry of them



closure is always a big thing in this but as he is no longer about to give it to you maybe you need to search it out yourself.

whilst it was a long time ago and this might not be for everyone have you ever thought about attending a support group/ forum for this just to gain that little bit of extra perspective/ take a step back and look at it differently it maybe just enough for you to get the closure

This is a great idea, thanks GW! I'm going to research abuse support forums I'd be able to attend online to see if I can get other's perspectives and suggestions. I'm not normally a guy who goes for talk therapy, but this isn't something I've been able to do alone, and it felt pretty good talking to you

 

[420IAMthatIAM]

[youtube]wO0eRFe-xQA[/youtube]

Interesting video, fascinating moment. If you don't know who Gary Ridgway is, he was known as the Green River killer, and was convicted of 48 different murders, confessed to 71, and estimates range to 90+ during the 80's and 90's.

What do you think of the idea of forgiveness. Clearly it's a powerful tool, but what is it exactly? Is forgiving the person who brutally murdered your daughter even real? Can that happen? Is it worth anything?

The emotion Ridgway showed towards this man tells me something got through, what was it? just a thought here..it is possible that in this time on this earth that he never saw any true faith from mankind towards a god himself included,when he saw that mans faith, a button was pushed telling him that there is a GOD. and now he may be in trouble at his own death.now he fears death.

In an otherwise exceptionally emotional moment, idk, I thought this was kind of beautiful in a way... Weird mix of emotions..

 

[Padawanbater2]

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2002-12-08-happy-main_x.htm

Forgiveness is the trait most strongly linked to happiness, interesting study.