ganja 2
Active Member
do not burn
Astir Grow Led Panel Project...
- Thread starter stardustsailor
- Start date
guod
Well-Known Member
ganja 2
Active Member
I've tried all colorstry it with a Red-Led
weedman420gr
Active Member
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
Νo..
I haven't changed my ratio of substrate....
Beneath the first 10 cm or so,there is my old mix ...
(One time used..As some of you know ,I use the same substrate to about seven-eight times..Or even more...)
That time I was missing some liters ,and I bought 20 liters " ready made" peat/perlite mix ...Didn't mix it with some extra perlite...
IO dunno why..Guess I was bored..I have more than of 100 liters of perlite in the attic...
Guys....
Batteries have i.e dynamic difference of 1.5 Volts...
Power ( Watts ) is dynamic difference multiplied by current => Volts x Amperes = Watts
2 batteries AAA or AA ,in series ,have a dynamic difference of 3 Volts approx (if new or freshly recharged )
Not 3 Watts ...
If they drive a device ,that works with 3 Volts Input and the device draws 1 Ampere current of the batteries ,then the device has power of 3 Watts..
(the device ,not the batteries..
The batteries supply energy.. So for one hour of operation ,the above device ,will consume
3 Watts x 1 hour = >3 Wh => .003 kWh....
Now ..We now the voltage (dynamic difference ) of the batteries.....3 volts ( 2 x 1.5 in series ) .....
Watts/volt=Amperes ..... => 3 Wh / 3 volt= 1 Ah ( Amperorioum ) ...This " combined " battery gave 1Ah energy to the device ..
Often batteries(usually rechargeables) state how much ENERGY the can "store " in Ah units...
(or mAh )
So....
Stored energy unit(for batteries )= Ah( i.e vehicle batteries )or mAhfor small batteries )
Spent energy unit = kWh (much bigger unit than Ah ,usually...)
Voltage (dynamic difference )= Volts
Current =A -mperes
Power =Watts ( Volts x Amperes ) { or kJ/sec or umol/sec or HorsePower (745 somethin Watts ),ect }....
Energy = Power x time = W h (for one hour ) or kWh
Now...Enough with the basics of electricity...
Toppin day... (I use a variation of UB's topping..)
12th day at veg...
..
Before and after topping (with the removed parts )
@Ganja2,that's a Led-jungle,you 've there !!!!
Wow !!!
I haven't changed my ratio of substrate....
Beneath the first 10 cm or so,there is my old mix ...
(One time used..As some of you know ,I use the same substrate to about seven-eight times..Or even more...)
That time I was missing some liters ,and I bought 20 liters " ready made" peat/perlite mix ...Didn't mix it with some extra perlite...
IO dunno why..Guess I was bored..I have more than of 100 liters of perlite in the attic...
Guys....
Batteries have i.e dynamic difference of 1.5 Volts...
Power ( Watts ) is dynamic difference multiplied by current => Volts x Amperes = Watts
2 batteries AAA or AA ,in series ,have a dynamic difference of 3 Volts approx (if new or freshly recharged )
Not 3 Watts ...
If they drive a device ,that works with 3 Volts Input and the device draws 1 Ampere current of the batteries ,then the device has power of 3 Watts..
(the device ,not the batteries..
The batteries supply energy.. So for one hour of operation ,the above device ,will consume
3 Watts x 1 hour = >3 Wh => .003 kWh....
Now ..We now the voltage (dynamic difference ) of the batteries.....3 volts ( 2 x 1.5 in series ) .....
Watts/volt=Amperes ..... => 3 Wh / 3 volt= 1 Ah ( Amperorioum ) ...This " combined " battery gave 1Ah energy to the device ..
Often batteries(usually rechargeables) state how much ENERGY the can "store " in Ah units...
(or mAh )
So....
Stored energy unit(for batteries )= Ah( i.e vehicle batteries )or mAhfor small batteries )
Spent energy unit = kWh (much bigger unit than Ah ,usually...)
Voltage (dynamic difference )= Volts
Current =A -mperes
Power =Watts ( Volts x Amperes ) { or kJ/sec or umol/sec or HorsePower (745 somethin Watts ),ect }....
Energy = Power x time = W h (for one hour ) or kWh
Now...Enough with the basics of electricity...
Toppin day... (I use a variation of UB's topping..)
12th day at veg...
..
Before and after topping (with the removed parts )
@Ganja2,that's a Led-jungle,you 've there !!!!
Wow !!!
PetFlora
Well-Known Member
SDS I saw this and thought of you, how it more than validates multi- fixture/angle leds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LHYCJKWjgtE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LHYCJKWjgtE
weedman420gr
Active Member
This is SDS when he was younger...
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
To be honest PetFlora,my brother...
I have thought ,also of it ..(althought it took me,about 37 years,to do so and not just 13....!!! )
SDS 's Alchemy says :
Plants belong to first evolved life forms....
They produce their own food ...
They do not "act " as we humans ,define "action " ...
They produce carbonhydrates ( energy stored in chemical form =sugars / starch ) using sunlight as primary enegy source ...
They harvest photons / EM waves ,turn them into electricity ( electrons ) and with that electricity used ,the plants " break up "the assimilated water into
Oxygen ( evolved Oxygen ) and Hydrogen ...Then, they combine Hydrogen with assimilated CO2 and produce organic molecules of carbonhydrates...
( Small molecules i.e glucose,sucroze,fructose,ect = energy ...Polymerised into long chains = Cellulose, main "building material" of plants =biomass )
So ,in fact ,higher plants are the best photovoltaic systems ..
Imagine a GM organism, for producing electricity : Common climbing Ivy with genes from Electric eel (Electrophorus electricus)..Ta -Daaaannnnn!!!!! )
And yes, going the opposite way...
Designing a led light source,for the best of photovoltaic systems on Earth ,is quite tricky in general ..
With driver/led efficiency,cooling ,plug efficiency ,heat losses of power,ect to be the "technical " part of the design...
The " biological " part is a whole different world...
For some reason ,we humans,think of plants ,same organisms like us...
That they eat like us ,need some sleep like us ,ect...
They are totally different from us...
In many-many ways....
Anyway....
I only know some basic stuff,ok ?
Like ....
That as long there is light ,plants " work "....
If there is not light ,plants "spend stored energy " for "search " of light...
They do not work...Neither they do ..."sleep"...
Or...
That ,they adjust their canopies ,pretty easily ,according to light ...
And the gather light by effective leaf canopy surface...
Not by how much is the power of light source...Not only by that parameter,at least..
Simple stuff...
Once plants "tricked " to react to a "lack " of light or "special pressure " ,
then canopy effective surface can be increased ,leaf angle towards direction of light can be enhanced ,
leaf stem length can be controlled to suit the needs of grow space,leaf blades can change form ,ect....
By building a rich and effective foliage at vegetative stage ,a plant will have more chances for a great reproductive stage..(Thus final yields...)
Plants ,do have something in common with us humans....
They get " lazy "..
Once there isn't the "pressure" or "stimulus" there anymore ...
They do not REACT..(So..Plants,might not act ..But,they react... )..
Or even worse...
When much of something "good " (say....66..nutrients I meant...Say,nutrients....) is given to them....
They get " twisted "...
People say ,they get good results ,with those and that...
Comparing to what ? To same Wattage HID ?
To CFLs ? To white leds ?
Plants....
These green ,
( more of a brown really,if we could see their true color ...)
photovoltaic ,biomass ( and many more ...) generators ...
They want to gather light all the time ..
.As much as possible...
And they use all the light they can get ...
They can grow with only blue and red light ...
They can grow with either blue or red solely....
The question (very easy one....once logic is used ) is ,in which light ,plants do thrive ?
And how exactly ?
Human light power or photon efficiency or photon numbers ,doesn't mean a thing to plants...
They " sense " the "world " ,in very different ways than we do....
But yes...
General speaking ,as "rich" & "full " light everywhere over them ,
coming from everywhere around ,is what they like most....
Now ,..If it is powerful also...?
Even better....
It's a common secret to Alchemy...
I have thought ,also of it ..(althought it took me,about 37 years,to do so and not just 13....!!! )
SDS 's Alchemy says :
Plants belong to first evolved life forms....
They produce their own food ...
They do not "act " as we humans ,define "action " ...
They produce carbonhydrates ( energy stored in chemical form =sugars / starch ) using sunlight as primary enegy source ...
They harvest photons / EM waves ,turn them into electricity ( electrons ) and with that electricity used ,the plants " break up "the assimilated water into
Oxygen ( evolved Oxygen ) and Hydrogen ...Then, they combine Hydrogen with assimilated CO2 and produce organic molecules of carbonhydrates...
( Small molecules i.e glucose,sucroze,fructose,ect = energy ...Polymerised into long chains = Cellulose, main "building material" of plants =biomass )
So ,in fact ,higher plants are the best photovoltaic systems ..
Imagine a GM organism, for producing electricity : Common climbing Ivy with genes from Electric eel (Electrophorus electricus)..Ta -Daaaannnnn!!!!! )
And yes, going the opposite way...
Designing a led light source,for the best of photovoltaic systems on Earth ,is quite tricky in general ..
With driver/led efficiency,cooling ,plug efficiency ,heat losses of power,ect to be the "technical " part of the design...
The " biological " part is a whole different world...
For some reason ,we humans,think of plants ,same organisms like us...
That they eat like us ,need some sleep like us ,ect...
They are totally different from us...
In many-many ways....
Anyway....
I only know some basic stuff,ok ?
Like ....
That as long there is light ,plants " work "....
If there is not light ,plants "spend stored energy " for "search " of light...
They do not work...Neither they do ..."sleep"...
Or...
That ,they adjust their canopies ,pretty easily ,according to light ...
And the gather light by effective leaf canopy surface...
Not by how much is the power of light source...Not only by that parameter,at least..
Simple stuff...
Once plants "tricked " to react to a "lack " of light or "special pressure " ,
then canopy effective surface can be increased ,leaf angle towards direction of light can be enhanced ,
leaf stem length can be controlled to suit the needs of grow space,leaf blades can change form ,ect....
By building a rich and effective foliage at vegetative stage ,a plant will have more chances for a great reproductive stage..(Thus final yields...)
Plants ,do have something in common with us humans....
They get " lazy "..
Once there isn't the "pressure" or "stimulus" there anymore ...
They do not REACT..(So..Plants,might not act ..But,they react... )..
Or even worse...
When much of something "good " (say....66..nutrients I meant...Say,nutrients....) is given to them....
They get " twisted "...
People say ,they get good results ,with those and that...
Comparing to what ? To same Wattage HID ?
To CFLs ? To white leds ?
Plants....
These green ,
( more of a brown really,if we could see their true color ...)
photovoltaic ,biomass ( and many more ...) generators ...
They want to gather light all the time ..
.As much as possible...
And they use all the light they can get ...
They can grow with only blue and red light ...
They can grow with either blue or red solely....
The question (very easy one....once logic is used ) is ,in which light ,plants do thrive ?
And how exactly ?
Human light power or photon efficiency or photon numbers ,doesn't mean a thing to plants...
They " sense " the "world " ,in very different ways than we do....
But yes...
General speaking ,as "rich" & "full " light everywhere over them ,
coming from everywhere around ,is what they like most....
Now ,..If it is powerful also...?
Even better....
It's a common secret to Alchemy...
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
I trust that is ,as simple as that...
Once a pistil is outta there " scouting " the air for flying around pollen,it is already fertile...
Real life shows the same also...
Males approach the "zenith" of their reproductive stage ,when females are just starting to show their first pistils ....
Once a pistil is outta there " scouting " the air for flying around pollen,it is already fertile...
Real life shows the same also...
Males approach the "zenith" of their reproductive stage ,when females are just starting to show their first pistils ....
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
I guess what I'm trying to say is this...
From the Macro-biology of Evolution POV....
Scenario A :
A small number of (same species ) plants ,set in an open field(much sunshine ) ,with fertile ground,lots of water
and sunshine coming from zenith ,lasting 12 hours a day......Meaning at tropicals
Scenario B: Same plants of scenario A ,but with serious antagonism from other plant species
(Antagonism because of proximity..."My Area " stuff.... Antagonism on nutrient/water uptake and light harvesting...)
Scenario C : A small number of plants ,set in mountain ,with dry ,unfertile ground .
Antagonism of other plants is there.Sunshine is coming from steep angle ,and lasts only 8 hours... Meaning away from Equator...
How nature works ?
What happens in each case ?
Will the plants of scenario A exaust the natural resources for the survival of species ?
(Survival of species at our example =many flowers =many seeds =more chances for survival )
Another nature hypothesis :
Will a lion,if chance given ,have killed 100 of antilopes instead of one to feed ?
Plants of Scenario A have the red carpet of survival in their ...roots...
Why bother and react ,to nothing wrong ?
There is not any threat to survival ...
They get lazy....
Few flowers....
(Look around for natural examples...)
Same plants in Scenario B now ,they face serious threat for survival....
Light(canopy-height ) antagonism and subearth antagonism ,will cause the plants to react....
They will try to outgrow the other plants...
By both going "higher" and "deeper" at the same time...And "wider" also ,at both cases ...
Natural resources are getting exausted at that case....
Flower production,also will probably increase ,if other parameters also, aid to that....
(More flowers=more seeds ...)
Scenario C is fight for life.....
Everything there is at stake .......
Massive flowering when and if possible....
Correct ? ( Indicas .... )
Eagles ,which fly high in the skies and know no enemies ,give birth once every two years approx ,to one to three chicks....
From the other hand ,deep in the ground ,mice give birth 5 to 10 times ,every year ,at average 10-15 baby-mice,each birth....
Talking about production....
Stressing or " overcaring " ?
Taking or giving ?
Both...
In balance between them...
The one , enhancing the other ....
I.e. by using "bad" light ( i.e green ) ,you make the plant to harvest ,more efficiently the "good " one ( blue+red )...
Keeps the plants " alert " for their survival...
Productive....
Specially with light -the language of plants- things are pretty complicated...
Supplying what seems- for human logic -efficient light for photosynthesis ,may drive the plants lazy,eventually.
If not cause other problems,also..
But ,maybe ,just "making it hard " a bit,plants get " alerted"...
Metabolism speeds up and many mechanisms are utilised for species survival...
I trust that there is a light combo that will "force " the plant to :
-increase resources need (nutrient /water assimilation )...
-increase leaf effective area and leaf effective "overall design " (lamina,petiole ) but overall canopy design..
Increased Leaf effective area means i ) more effective light harvest ii) bigger nutrient/energy storage.
-increase flowering ,as a combination of above and a stimulus ,an external "pressure " caused by the light itshelf ..
A light 'message' meaning " threat " ,to the right reaction center of plant ( survival reaction center ,that triggers " Massive flowering" .)
From the Macro-biology of Evolution POV....
Scenario A :
A small number of (same species ) plants ,set in an open field(much sunshine ) ,with fertile ground,lots of water
and sunshine coming from zenith ,lasting 12 hours a day......Meaning at tropicals
Scenario B: Same plants of scenario A ,but with serious antagonism from other plant species
(Antagonism because of proximity..."My Area " stuff.... Antagonism on nutrient/water uptake and light harvesting...)
Scenario C : A small number of plants ,set in mountain ,with dry ,unfertile ground .
Antagonism of other plants is there.Sunshine is coming from steep angle ,and lasts only 8 hours... Meaning away from Equator...
How nature works ?
What happens in each case ?
Will the plants of scenario A exaust the natural resources for the survival of species ?
(Survival of species at our example =many flowers =many seeds =more chances for survival )
Another nature hypothesis :
Will a lion,if chance given ,have killed 100 of antilopes instead of one to feed ?
Plants of Scenario A have the red carpet of survival in their ...roots...
Why bother and react ,to nothing wrong ?
There is not any threat to survival ...
They get lazy....
Few flowers....
(Look around for natural examples...)
Same plants in Scenario B now ,they face serious threat for survival....
Light(canopy-height ) antagonism and subearth antagonism ,will cause the plants to react....
They will try to outgrow the other plants...
By both going "higher" and "deeper" at the same time...And "wider" also ,at both cases ...
Natural resources are getting exausted at that case....
Flower production,also will probably increase ,if other parameters also, aid to that....
(More flowers=more seeds ...)
Scenario C is fight for life.....
Everything there is at stake .......
Massive flowering when and if possible....
Correct ? ( Indicas .... )
Eagles ,which fly high in the skies and know no enemies ,give birth once every two years approx ,to one to three chicks....
From the other hand ,deep in the ground ,mice give birth 5 to 10 times ,every year ,at average 10-15 baby-mice,each birth....
Talking about production....
Stressing or " overcaring " ?
Taking or giving ?
Both...
In balance between them...
The one , enhancing the other ....
I.e. by using "bad" light ( i.e green ) ,you make the plant to harvest ,more efficiently the "good " one ( blue+red )...
Keeps the plants " alert " for their survival...
Productive....
Specially with light -the language of plants- things are pretty complicated...
Supplying what seems- for human logic -efficient light for photosynthesis ,may drive the plants lazy,eventually.
If not cause other problems,also..
But ,maybe ,just "making it hard " a bit,plants get " alerted"...
Metabolism speeds up and many mechanisms are utilised for species survival...
I trust that there is a light combo that will "force " the plant to :
-increase resources need (nutrient /water assimilation )...
-increase leaf effective area and leaf effective "overall design " (lamina,petiole ) but overall canopy design..
Increased Leaf effective area means i ) more effective light harvest ii) bigger nutrient/energy storage.
-increase flowering ,as a combination of above and a stimulus ,an external "pressure " caused by the light itshelf ..
A light 'message' meaning " threat " ,to the right reaction center of plant ( survival reaction center ,that triggers " Massive flowering" .)
Hi again.. Im still building an LED based off of what im learning from this thread and a few other places. I will post results here if wanted so you can test your theories. I was wondering about color ratio. After much thought i think im going to go with 32 LED's in sets of 8. Each set will consist of 3 red, 3 war white, 2 cool white. Seems like a good color ratio going off of what Stardustsailor has pulled up, input would be appreciated.
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
Now,since you are diving in the ocean of led DIY...
The way ,suggested by Astir Team for led use according growing plants :
-Multiple small panels .More than 15-20,for selected space , has no meaning ..
(So the power of each panel must take into consideration :
i) grow total space
ii) total power wished to be utilised
iii) number of panels to be utilised to cover the grow space..
iv ) heat dissipation ability of heatsink /cooling mechanism & leds (power,number ,efficiency )
-Wide emission angles ,close to leaf canopy ....
Each panel ,illuminates,a sector...
There are no big deal light losses in a confined space of 1m x 1m x 2 m ..
Specially if reflective material is utilised ,at same time ...
Canopy gets evenly illuminated ,with virtually no dark spots...
-1 Watt chips ( @ 350mA ) ...Maximum Radiometric efficiency.
-"Red" for us ,is not measured in nm .It is measured in Kelvin.
"Red" is Warm White.
-"Blue",respectively is Cool White....
-2 Warms to 1 Cool ,is the White Light Golden Ratio.
-630 nm (620-640 ) red leds ,do not have so intense Phytochrome activation ability as longer wls of red...
The debate about their full final photosynthetic utilisation and efficiency is endless...
Anyway,it has been proven ,that in few numbers ,they work great,without "unbalancing" severe the plants "neigbor " detection ability or the Pr/Pfr ratio...
(Meaning ,than they cannot cause severe flowering adverse effects ,at any Short Day Flowering species..)
Your ratio seems of too much red...
Specially at low irradiations ,like yours,with only 32 leds might prove to be ok ...
What about 3x Warms ,3 x Cools & 2 reds ?
More "balanced " light....
Although, more "quality yield " oriented ,rather than "quantity"....
3 warms and 3 cools, seems like too much blue and yellow to me.. but as ive said ive tried to find an exact spectral break down of these white LED's and was unable too. Also why use 1 watt chips? i find that 3w and 5w chips run at 700 mah like Hans panel is pretty ideal. Look at the results produced from Hans panel. Mostly red LED's at 700mah. He's gotten over 1 gram/watt multiple times. Also Pinstripes PC grow with 22 watts of mostly red LED's yielded 38 grams. Will mostly white LED's really out perform those other red/blue panels? Im sorry for being so pro red/blue but it has shown some very good results where i have yet to see as good a grow with a mostly white LED panel.
stardustsailor
Well-Known Member
Oh ,then again go with the blue/red combo way..
Why bother with white leds ?
Let us do that ....
And if and when we out-perform anything else ,not just " Hans " ,
I'm sure you'll find out about it ,by then...
If...
By then do not bother with whites...
Go for the up to date,proven to work ,method...
I like risking...Doing crazy stuff...
Monkey stuff...
Why sit and bother with a monkey ?
Spend all this precious time...
Of yours...
....
And mine...
[video=youtube;BCoP7G2K7Hc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCoP7G2K7Hc&feature=fvsr[/video]