nutrients and dirtbaggers--

[buckaroo bonzai]

yeah ever notice how some sativas like the medium more acidic?

and some indicas more alkaline- IMO

and you would be wise abe my friend to start to do those mixes more mindfully and consciously ---keep track of those numbers and add them all up-

one of the best uses of tea I have found is foliating with a fogger--atomizer
the leaves love drinking the tea and can double your plant size if used right--

and you are correct the tea becomes anerobic when not used--dead

and from my experience of roots camo bags they were designed to be used for gurellia style---just find a nice bushy spot open the bag and put seedling in from start to finish--add water
thats what they were designed for-

and cook your mixes always before use--the longer the better

edit: my learning curve is in a circle!

 

[abe supercro]

yes, foliar feeding is something that is often overlooked. I do have a ways to go to get my scientific mind fully wrapped around a true living organic system... kinda difficult to compartmentalize from moment-to-moment as it's esoteric by nature. while I've rarely dedicated enough time to cook my soil fully, I attempt to make up for it by, as part of my mix, using an overpriced amended soil that has already been worked, like roots, happy frog or fox farm.

my new 2013 pen and paper grow journal will help guide me with specifics about my experiments. too much trial and error gets frustrating, but I'm sure I'll come out on the otherside more knowledgeable... that along with help from my friends.

 

[buckaroo bonzai]

I took a soil science class once and the professor said the numbers don't mean shit. It only says simply what ratios of nitrogen-phosphorous-potassium are. throwing around numbers repeatedly sounds like bullshit. I'm sure more enlightened dirt-persons will chime in at some point if we are patient enough to give it time and an open-mind. Jedi you sound like a great guy, but you tend to come off as a lil pretentious at times, just my neophyte opinion. do we plant the seed, or do we harvest it first?

ok so that being said and the numbers don't mean anything ---not to be pretentious...I really don't know anything--just the circular learning curve I am trapped in--

when you have a medium with 12-0-0 your only giving the plant a 12% ratio of nitrogen to P -K

then in the middle stage of growth when the plant switches to flower you need to up the (P) phosphorus content--5-10-5

then as the plant matures you are going to want to lower the first two values (N-P) and raise the last number(k) 1-1-17

just examples of numbers but they do make a difference in growth stages and development results--

and my best results were when I carefully kept my numbers as close as possible in my soil mixes--even when i liquid feed...
most of my soil mixes have been close to 20-20-20
i have found soluble seaweed extract powder (K) with a value of 1-1-17 makes for bigger stalk development and I have always used that in my mixes--
a good set and forget for beginners in small containers would be like sub cool mix 15-10-10...that is a close estimate of his mix
15%n 10%p 10%k----available ratios

now if I take what I just mixed 32-26-26
what availability is that?

32%n 26%p 26%k for the life of my plant--in my containers...
now the plant doesn't know or care if there's 12% or 32% but it matters when the plant wants that much and it's availability

I will cook it for a month or more and then take a sample to msu soil test for 10$ and they will tell me the real skinny on it-
i know that during the starting of fflower development to almost completely cut down nitrogen and then at the end it likes a high potassium available--
I always use wood ash to finish --top dress

so if the numbers only represent available ratios then a bigger ratio factored into veg length and container size--20-20-20 would have better longevity to feed bigger plants no?

and if my goal is to do a smaller number of larger plants in larger containers...??...I can always feed more bottled vitamins if I want to really pump things up--or give them some extra love as you put it
and I don't do hydro--we talked about that

does that sound pretentious or like I am trying to find other pholks experience here?


and I can tell you Abe that this is the style I learned and I would stand behind my bullshit numbers--
after all there must be something in those KISS supersoil mixes to make pholks use them--and have such good results

think of it this way---if you are doing an outdoor grow in containers you couldn't keep feeding the plants with liquid nutes unless you were set up for it and it would be expensive!! but they do it...
so you would need to have everything there in your container outdoors as you could not carry 5gl buckets of liquid nutes to feed your crop--you would need to make your outdoor soil containers as complete and self contained as possible--for as long as the grow cycle

apply indoor--


and I always want to harvest first--or see a finish before I waste my time planting seeds...unless someone that I know is reliable gives me the seed -~

 

[buckaroo bonzai]

edit:double post

 

[abe supercro]

good food for thought.
im not a scholar by any means, but I did study horticulture at MSU so have a clue about the basics npk and what that means. once we start pulling additives from many sources, the numbers change significantly. so I can agree about bringing the final product to MSU to get your bottom line quatitatively. I bet there are very few ppl on this board that can exact what the actual numbers are mathematically once you start a blend from multi-sources, in relation to pot size and all variables. I've spent many hours with that math and it's far from easy. but I'm not a scientist more of an artist mentality. Yes, there is also the 'availability' concept which we all strive to enhance.

Sir dude from the red-eye, please don't be offended that I mention what I did. I keyed in on your vertical-learning-curve-here comment along with your statement that you suggest that 'we' "can close this thread" only after having it up for half a day. I've been accused of reading too far into things, but I also have been called observant. more growing, less psychology right.
thank you for helping me, sorry I don't have more to add myself at this time, it's late. peace

 

[buckaroo bonzai]

good food for thought.
im not a scholar by any means, but I did study horticulture at MSU so have a clue about the basics npk and what that means. once we start pulling additives from many sources, the numbers change significantly. so I can agree about bringing the final product to MSU to get your bottom line quatitatively. I bet there are very few ppl on this board that can exact what the actual numbers are mathematically once you start a blend from multi-sources, in relation to pot size and all variables. I've spent many hours with that math and it's far from easy. but I'm not a scientist more of an artist mentality. Yes, there is also the 'availability' concept which we all strive to enhance.

Sir dude from the red-eye, please don't be offended that I mention what I did. I keyed in on your vertical-learning-curve-here comment along with your statement that you suggest that 'we' "can close this thread" only after having it up for half a day. I've been accused of reading too far into things, but I also have been called observant. more growing, less psychology right.
thank you for helping me, sorry I don't have more to add myself at this time, it's late. peace

well you could never offend me SIR---I have met you--
and I prefer 'bra-'

but you can call me sir nothing from the land of nobodies--I don't know any jedi from the red eye---but have seen many

I really ain't no-body or no-thing--
and if my learning curve is circular what does that tell you?
(I didn't take horticulture at msu)

my moniker is buckaroo bonzai and if you ever saw the movie you would know I travel across the 8th dimension chasing John big-bootay

i did post this elsewhere on this forum though and this is more of what I got--https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/227149-fertilisers-high-number-npk-2.html


i like the golden rule of gardening--very simple

easy as 1-2-3 or N-P-K

should I start in on my moon phase gardening?


EDIT: and no it is you that 'I' need to thank for helping me---
to acclimate to my container size I find myself in here!

so I say to you .....peas and hair grease--keep it smoov

oh and hooray for Washington and Colorado!!!! this is gona get interesting-

 

[abe supercro]

yeah buckaroo brah... and don't hold back with the moon phases.
[btw- PRK is female]

 

[Rrog]

Buckaroo, I'm afraid you're stuck between chem hydro and true living soil. Ph is insignificant. Why? Because you can't change it if the soil is alive. The plant dictates this by preferentially feeding the microbes, which in turn adjust the pH. The plant is in charge of this.

NPK calcs are more relevant in chem farming with ferts, where the soil is much more sterile, the microbes/plant are not in control, and you take in the unnecessary role of balancing nutrient delivery.

 

[Rrog]

Base Soil

1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat or Alaska Peat
1/3 Aeration material (2 parts Perlite, 2 parts chunky coco, 1 part Vermiculite)
1/3 Humus (1 part EWC, 1 part local / used topsoil, 1 part leaf litter, 1 part compost)

Per Cubic Foot of the Base Soil:

½ Cup DE
½ Cup Espoma Starter Plus
1 cup Charcoal (like spent carbon from our scrubbers)
½ Cup Epsom Salt
4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)

½ Cup Neem Meal (2 g / L)
1 Cup Crab Shell Meal
2 Cups Kelp Meal (Espoma makes it)
2 Cups Fish Meal
2 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1 Cup Sul-Po-Mag
½ Cup Alfalfa

1.5 Cups Montmorillonite clay
1.5 Cups Pyrophyllite Clay

Moisten with Fresh Aloe (2 Tbs Juice with 1 gallon water) and Accelerant Tea (Comfrey, Yarrow, Horsetail or Nettle)

I pre-inoculate with BTI and Nematodes.

Let this cook for 4 weeks. Initially there's an awful lot of free Nitrogen floating around. The 4 weeks allows the microbes to store it away.

This is based on a soil mix created by my friend Gascanistan with heavy influence from Clackamas Coot, another friend. A couple of contemporary geniuses in my mind.

 

[buckaroo bonzai]

Base Soil

1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat or Alaska Peat
1/3 Aeration material (2 parts Perlite, 2 parts chunky coco, 1 part Vermiculite)
1/3 Humus (1 part EWC, 1 part local / used topsoil, 1 part leaf litter, 1 part compost)

Per Cubic Foot of the Base Soil:

½ Cup DE
½ Cup Espoma Starter Plus
1 cup Charcoal
½ Cup Epsom Salt
4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)

½ Cup Neem Meal (2 g / L)
1 Cup Crab Shell Meal
2 Cups Kelp Meal (Espoma makes it)
2 Cups Fish Meal
2 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1 Cup Sul-Po-Mag
½ Cup Alfalfa

1.5 Cups Montmorillonite clay
1.5 Cups Pyrophyllite Clay

Moisten with Fresh Aloe (2 Tbs Juice with 1 gallon water) and Accelerant Tea (Comfrey, Yarrow, Horsetail or Nettle)

I pre-inoculate with BTI and Nematodes.

Let this cook for 4 weeks.

nothing I use is chem fert--all organic meals and extras like you--
and when I added the numbers up on my latest effort I got 32-26-26 as my ratio values-

i swear by pro mix and also use happy frog and OF mixed 2-1 frog to fish as my base soil mix--
then my amendments-

i really like your mix--it is interesting and you have a unique recipe there--
mine is similar but lacking on some of your recipe--specifically the clays you use---usually I use leonardite(?)

the one thing I am sorely missing is my friends concentrated worm casings.....not available around here and I used to mix it 10-1
i posted his worm farming approach further back--
would you be interested in starting a worm farm?
i wish someone here was on that effort--


there is still an NPK value to your recipe--


i have been mixing for the last 12 yrs and try new things all the time--I have included some guanos in my latest recipe and will give you a break down later--

i inoculate if I do a cover crop-- it takes long but has extremely awesome results

i am at work and saw your post and I can't respond till late--I am on iPad break

i am interested in the NPK values in different peoples mix-
thats where it all starts IMO and I have played with a lot of different values--

true once you get your recipe down the microbes do the rest but the foundation you build your medium on is where it all starts--
thks for the reply and I look forward later to more dialogue....I am going to see if I can find the rough value of your mix--

since you are using cups as a measurement the value is the same just smaller amount-

you have a very nice recipe there and looks like you are on spot for the TLO approach--
very concious effort and right out of the TLO manual-
you probably create some good medicine-

do you moon phase garden also?to give you the full TLO effect?-
http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/911/#b

tonite is a 'root' day-

look forward to dialogue--

and so you never consider the NPK value when you mix you let the microbes doo all the work and set it and forget it--?

 

[Rrog]

I wouldn't plant by the moon anymore than I would mow the lawn based on lunar cycles. People commonly overestimate the moons affect on us. The moon affects oceans due to their incomprehensible mass. Even the Great Lakes, as massive as they are, only have a tidal response measures as a small fraction of an inch. Humans are not affected nor are plants. Not looking to argue, but I looked into this and am personally comfortable with my opinion. If someone else wants to plant based on lunar cycles or any other celestial metric, I'm all for it. Go for it.

That recipe is only slightly modified by me, and I am not the creator. The soil mix is designed to be re-used by amending with EWC and compost, primarily, as well as the gradual addition of N sources. Companion plants are great. You might enjoy Googling "no-till living soil". The minerals including Ca+ are slowly released over time, so their introduction is more for future grows, not the first.

The clays are added to increase the CAC of the soil, along with the compost.

If you can do Bokashi, why can't you raise some worms? Or buy a bag of EWC?

 

[buckaroo bonzai]

I wouldn't plant by the moon anymore than I would mow the lawn based on lunar cycles. People commonly overestimate the moons affect on us. The moon affects oceans due to their incomprehensible mass. Even the Great Lakes, as massive as they are, only have a tidal response measures as a small fraction of an inch. Humans are not affected nor are plants. Not looking to argue, but I looked into this and am personally comfortable with my opinion. If someone else wants to plant based on lunar cycles or any other celestial metric, I'm all for it. Go for it.

That recipe is only slightly modified by me, and I am not the creator. The soil mix is designed to be re-used by amending with EWC and compost, primarily, as well as the gradual addition of N sources. Companion plants are great. You might enjoy Googling "no-till living soil". The minerals including Ca+ are slowly released over time, so their introduction is more for future grows, not the first.

The clays are added to increase the CAC of the soil, along with the compost.

If you can do Bokashi, why can't you raise some worms? Or buy a bag of EWC?

worms....my brothers!
i am a brother of the worm my friend--
http://thewormfarm.gomobinow.mobi/

I would very much like to start a worm farm here-- interested in chit chatin about it sometime?

i really like your recipe-- it has some nice ingredients

i added up 7 of the ingredients NPK values ..(not including them all- just 7) and I have a rough ratio of 31.5-21-15 on your recipe---
that doesn't necessarily mean that IS the ratio---but that is what you are mixing with and is relative to the amounts and size of your containers--
being as this looks like a yard or so mix--I wouldn't know how to quantify that to adjust for your proportions-it gives me an idea though-

http://www.helpfulgardener.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=924

it is a rough...but close estimate of what you are mixing-- this is the dialogue I am trying to stimulate..I understand the fact that most folks agree the numbers don't matter when growing organically...but when I make my "smoothie" for my plants I want it to be the highest content ..within reason ....of available organic material for the microbes to feed on---like givin a kid a nutritional hemp smoothie-- or a coca cola....what is more healthy and better for my subject


you see your recipe is close to mine but I didn't use the fish meal and bone..very nice
i use fish emulsion to extra feed--

my recipe is just a build-up of the super soil recipes out there--with some of my own twists...
i learned it many moons ago....for instance I always add some soluble seaweed powder--

but in every recipe there is an NPK value and it can be found by crunching out the numbers

if you look at optimal NPK for cannabis a lot have 20-10-10 or 30-20-20 high balanced numbers usually to get maximum affect-
10-5-5 15-10-10

its subjective how you want to get to that--

some pholks do organic(which I personally prefer)--others do liquid--hydro--aeroponics--

i greatly appreciate bio-dynamic or TLO methods and I thank you for practicing and sharing that!
it is a mindful and concious way of gardening and living--

i am in the process of working with some people to develop some "super mixes" to bring to the pharmers --would enjoy to sit and share sometime--

what area are you by?
i am outside of A2--

do you ever frequent the GC3 in flint!

and one other--CAC? the clay? what is that acronym for? I am researching these two and like what I see

i use bokashi as a compost accelerator--to break down the soil and nutrients faster with mycillium and give the nematodes some help-plus I enjoy the smell

i have a friend thar uses EWC and promix--that's all! and water--good clean water....he gets the results he desires and the results are fine--

i have met someone in the past that grew a crop in perlite! with all liquids

 

[Rrog]

You should read Teaming With Microbes. Second Edition. Short read, nicely illustrated, and discusses in depth, the natural interaction between microbes and plants. You'll read about the CAC, the Cation Exchange Capacity of a soil. Compost and clay both hold tremendous amounts of Cations like Ca+, K+ that they exchange with the plant root for food. Microbes feed the plant and the plant feeds the microbes.

If the soil is alive, you have little control over things. There are billions and billions of microbial workers taking care of business for you. This is why it's a waste to try and pH the water. The plant chooses what microbes will hang around, and the microbes determine the pH.

 

[jesus of Cannabis]

and I throw a lot of other secret things into my mix that I cannot share but make for a great blend and counterbalance my nutes--

if we, as growers, are not able to share, then what good are we? We must be able to share opinions, experiences as well as growers experience. I also smell bullshit in your "secret things".

 

[buckaroo bonzai]

We must be able to share opinions, experiences as well as growers experience. I also smell bullshit in your "secret things".

well you smelled wrong --

you better check your shoe--you mighta stepped in ....


but as far as "secret" there is nothing I use that is truly secret--

if you came from as far as I have come it is all common knowledge among soil mixers--
and the ganj pharmers and the grape growers trade 'secrets'...

ganj grows almost exactly the same as a grape crop--
grapes like the same nutrients---are close to the same growing cycle--are seceptable to the same mold bugs and deficiencies--
botritus--powdery--nutrient lockout and deficiency

the vineyard people can share 'secrets' with you ---
I made the mistake of phrasing it wrong-
land said I 'cannot' share it---wrong
i have no problem sharing my knowledge---it was very hard earned
i give it away freely
its a framers knowledge---knowledge is just knowing
wisdom is knowing what to do with the knowledge

but also where I am from you do not share ALL your secrets to success-
I know a lot of people that wouldn't sell or tell you their WHOLE recipe for a million bucks!
they value their soil and how they treat it as much as their herb!
the love you put into your 'mix' will let everyone know who you are if you do it right
-if someone wants the knowledge the must earn it --
-I can tell you a million things to throw out in your mix....but it's not the mix it's the alchemist-
its really not all that---just talk to any good organic farmer and they can share secrets
the secrets you seek I cannot tell you you will find them out on your own-

im all for sharing but I don't think where I'm at on my mixing soil Skool there are few other students here...
or if there are some mixers they haven't jumped in--
saying you smell bullshit jdoesnt tell me what level of mixing it up you are at--
sounds that you are vexed I said I cannot share---I didn't feel like typing that long when I wrote that

and then that gent Rrog came on and started to put up a recipe he uses and I sorta didn't think of NOT sharing--
he engaged me and I appreciated his posts
i actually picked up somthing from him about the different clays he is on--
I rather enjoyed his posts and can see he is a very concious awake being in his approach-
we bantered about NPK and I only ment to point out the ratio values in everything--
i was taught by the numbers...hard way....only way I understand
they call it the garden golden rule--3-2-1veg 1-2-3 flower/fruit

So--

were you here in the space around me I would offer you some kind herb and talk with you about soil-

since your calling me on it I should have used the phrase---"what I prefer" instead of "secret" ....it may have been better received in cyborworld...


i use things like --grape pomace
mushroom compost
oyster ,crab or crustacean blend
I get fish emulsions outa Maine
I get my friends super EWC when I can...it's posted above-hard to get now that I am here and it mixes 10-1
I like a lot of different 'meals' alfalfa cottonseed kelp etc
I use bokashi
and as many kinds of mychroizahe as I can experiment
I like brewing teas with EM1 I like Bam too ....beneficial bacterias you can order on the net
I've used lots of different seaweed powders....I have friend that has seaweed business and she powders and makes
some different mixes for me with kelp and krill and things

alot of these things I haven't been able to scour down here in mich and I have been experimenting with a lot of different powdered mixes found at the local gro shop--espoma-dr earth- etc

i usually keep track of the NPK values when I mix soil and I wondered how many dirtbaggers here in mich were out there mixing it up.....?

i learned something close to the super soil mix that is out here in cyber many years ago before it was so prevalent on the net....
a basic balanced soil mix--and I spon on that
i have since spent many years playing around with different results--
any old fpharmer can point out that indica and sativa can enjoy different mixes..

out door growers have to mix their own soil mix and even the best guerilla will have something in their mix they throw out so they have to chk their patch less....if your throwing out in the bush you have to be able to set and hope you only have to go back a couple times a month to make sure--

if you mix your own dirt-
what do you throw in or are you not mixing a soil that will feed the plant for its whole cycle?
do you track the numbers and how do you prefer-
with organic It doesn't really matter once the microbes take effect they balance out the mixture and keep it neutral for the most part
you cannot realistically PH your soil when you are doing out door somewhere where it is not available --so the container has to do all the work--

apply the same principles indoor--

fk all the hydro and bottled 'nutes'
you can create soil that is ten times more beneficial and symbiotic than anything in a bottle
you can get twice the health vigor and vitality taste quality potency if you put it in the container for the plant to access instead of adding it when you think
just good water! and you can grow with nothing and still get results-

i know hydro is easy--
once you get the hang of it--
i just never believed in having my plants soaking in liquid nutrients---the roots being washed in it
its great for some but in all the years I've had my couple few...1plant I couldn't tell you a thing about it or how to do it-

i believe in soil-
and I think it's much easier if you can learn to mix your own--like Rrog said TLO--
pits like permaculture in a container--it does all the work
not you

So 'hey-Zeus' or is it 'gee-zuz'?

notice there is no 'steer manure' in my recipe--
not sure what ur smelling---
but I think I smell what your stepping in--

chk your shoe-

 

[abe supercro]

nice list of goodies to look for at diff grow shops around michigan. i'll admit even though i may not be an advanced dirt farmer, if composed only as just satisfactorily, soil is very forgiving and still provides excellent results. i've only began to focus on organics for the past few years and it should be an interesting journey. as a taurus i've always been one with dirt, although im still just any-old dirt pharmer,, somedays I am more conscious than others.. life is predictable like that.

 

[Rrog]

That above mix I posted is like a SuperSoil, in that it needs minimal nutrients added for the grow. It's also designed to be recycled with light amending. In my opinion soil is the best and cheapest method to grow if done right.

Abe, consider a standard SuperSoil recipe with Roots Organic as the base soil. That's what I'm growing in now. I inoculate with Crab Shell Meal, Neem Meal, BTI dunks and Predatory Nematodes to get any and all pests devoured long before I plant. I let the Supersoil mix cook for a few weeks, as I mentioned. I haven't had a pest in 1.5 years.

 

[buckaroo bonzai]

hey Rrog you rrecipe is a very nice balance mix --the fish products give it a complete balance-

and I studied your CAC....it's CEC...that's the acronym that's why i didn't know what you were referring to-and bokashi hasoneof the highest CEC ratios--
it's something like a billion cultures that it starts out with--and most other rates are up to 100,000live cultures--
here is an interesting article on bokashi http://www.agrowingculture.org/2011/07/growing-with-the-fermented-organic-fertilizer-bokashi-steven-leong/

my best balanced mixes are close to a 20-20-20 with enough volume to feed my plants for their whole life cycle and with very little attention except water

i am looking to increase N in my latest mixes since I am doing indoor pharming --fish products can be very hot

i thought I would give you a headz-up that it looks like skunk magazine is devoting a whole issue to the Rev and his TLO-
and the best fertilizers for your mind and herb--

here is a link to their Facebook page-http://www.facebook.com/pages/SKUNK-Magazine/6840516294

scroll down and you will see a picture of the issue with the Rev-
look for it...I will be it looks good

also notice the emerald cup posts--this is where the best TLO herb is gonna be this year....
am anxiously awaiting the results of the cup and this is the first oneive missed in 9 yrs--wish I could be there so I'm puttin it up in hopes some mitten fpholks might think about attendance--dec15

also as we are in mich and this is such a fishermans state I would hope or am wondering if anyone here has started their own fish nutes co....this is sorely needed here for the canna culture --

and I believe the whole vibration needs to be raised here as far as TLO and organic soil --
enjoy-

 

[abe supercro]

I NEED to work on my relationship with soil. a few not so subtle hints and pointers have begun to fall from the trees, and not just for me. I WANT to gather these tips and figure out precisely how I may apply them. nearly an old dog, at 45, I'm not convinced that I'm capable of being objective enough to see what exactly is being presented. some concepts become too esoteric for me to completely get. I'm clearly searching for a 'system' that I find complimentary to my lifestyle and beliefs, without that intact I'd be asking for a headache.

 

[Rrog]

Buckaroo- Stoner moment. So sorry . Of course it's CEC. The Alfalpha is very hot so the soil needs to have the microbes break it down and store it so as not to burn roots when they come on the scene a few weeks later.

Abe- What do you do now for soil?