A Challenge ...

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
:D Ok, I'm gonna give this ONE try, but I don't think I'll get very far. First, if you're going to make such an assertion, that 'most' scientists agree on life that is or was capable of visiting our planet, you're going to have to prove it.

In any event, I forget the exact formula, but here's how it works.

First, we need to ascertain the number of solar systems, at least in our galaxy. Not every star is a solar system, ok?

Then, out of those solar systems, we must guess at how many have "Class M planets" (I was a Star Trek geek and sort of still am). That is to say planets simply capable of sustaining life, IN ANY FORM.

THEN, out of those, we must guess at how many were able to produce "intelligent" life. Right there the number has been reduced drastically, even though class M planets are hard enough to find as it is.

THEN, of those planets on which life formed and it became intelligent, it had to exist in a time frame during which WE existed as intelligent life.

If one uses earth and humans as the rule or guide on which to base calculations, and the uses civilization's existence (time frame), the chances of us being visited by intelligent extraterrestrial life become astronomically small.

But, hey, if most scientists agree, then just hit me with some names and numbers. My own sources can work on the veracity of your claims. ;)

:lol:
 

email468

Well-Known Member
I think we're talking about the what equation... Bueller, Bueller? (sorry couldn't resist)

Drake Equation...

most scientists agree that extraterrestrials exist? WTF!?!

How about most scientists agree that life somewhere else in the universe is highly likely or even probable... I'll buy that.

But if you ask those same scientists what is the likelihood of those aliens zipping around their own solar system let alone the universe - i think the answer would disappoint you.
 

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
I think we're talking about the what equation... Bueller, Bueller? (sorry couldn't resist)

Drake Equation...

most scientists agree that extraterrestrials exist? WTF!?!

How about most scientists agree that life somewhere else in the universe is highly likely or even probable... I'll buy that.

But if you ask those same scientists what is the likelihood of those aliens zipping around their own solar system let alone the universe - i think the answer would disappoint you.
Oh, thank you, God, for someone with good reading comprehension. ;) (See? I understand the concept of faith.)
The Drake Equation, that's it!
I would also agree that it is highly probable that life at least has existed elsewhere in the universe. However, it extrapolate from that that all life must necessarily become intelligent, and then from there that it would become intelligent enough to make it off its home planet is a stretch I will not make without, you know, proof. ;) The Fermi paradox is another part of the equation (ahhh.. what a relief it is, Google for instant information).
 
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Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
Special, for medicineman, the "fucking math". :rolleyes:

The Drake equation states that:
where:
N is the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible.
R* is the average rate of star formation in our galaxy.
fp is the fraction of those stars that have planets.
ne is the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets.
fℓ is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point.
fi is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life.
f
c is the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space.
L
is the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.
The number of stars in the galaxy now, N*, is related to the star formation rate R* by
, where Tg is the age of the galaxy. Assuming for simplicity that R* is constant, then N* = R* Tg and the Drake equation can be rewritten into an alternate form phrased in terms of the more easily observable value, N*.[2]


[OpenDNS] Historical estimates of the parameters


Considerable disagreement on the values of most of these parameters exists, but the values used by Drake and his colleagues in 1961 were:

  • R* = 10/year (10 stars formed per year, on the average over the life of the galaxy)
  • fp = 0.5 (half of all stars formed will have planets)
  • ne = 2 (stars with planets will have 2 planets capable of supporting life)
  • fl = 1 (100% of these planets will develop life)
  • fi = 0.01 (1% of which will be intelligent life)
  • fc = 0.01 (1% of which will be able to communicate)
  • L = 10,000 years (which will last 10,000 years)
Drake's values give N = 10 × 0.5 × 2 × 1 × 0.01 × 0.01 × 10,000 = 10.
The value of R* is determined from considerable astronomical data, and is the least disputed term of the equation; fp is less certain, but is still much firmer than the values following. Confidence in ne was once higher, but the discovery of numerous gas giants in close orbit with their stars has introduced doubt that life-supporting planets commonly survive the creation of their stellar systems. In addition, most stars in our galaxy are red dwarfs, which have little of the ultraviolet radiation that has contributed[citation needed] to the evolution of life on Earth. Instead they flare violently, mostly in X-rays—a property not conducive to life as we know it (simulations also suggest that these bursts erode planetary atmospheres). The possibility of life on moons of gas giants (e.g. Jupiter's satellite OpenDNS) adds further uncertainty to this figure.
Geological evidence from the Earth suggests that fl may be very high; life on Earth appears to have begun around the same time as favorable conditions arose, suggesting that abiogenesis may be relatively common once conditions are right. However, this evidence only looks at the Earth (a single model planet), and contains anthropic bias, as the planet of study was not chosen randomly, but by the living organisms that already inhabit it (ourselves). Whether this is actually a case of anthropic bias has been contested, however; it might rather merely be a limitation involving a critically small sample size, since it is argued that there is no bias involved in our asking these questions about life on Earth. Also countering this argument is that there is no evidence for abiogenesis occurring more than once on the Earth—that is, all terrestrial life stems from a common origin. If abiogenesis were more common it would be speculated to have occurred more than once on the Earth. In addition, from a classical hypothesis testing standpoint, there are zero degrees of freedom, permitting no valid estimates to be made.
:D I fucking LOVE this stuff. :D
 

email468

Well-Known Member
Oh, thank you, God, for someone with good reading comprehension. ;) (See? I understand the concept of faith.)
The Drake Equation, that's it!
I would also agree that it is highly probable that life at least has existed elsewhere in the universe. However, it extrapolate from that that all life must necessarily become intelligent, and then from there that it would become intelligent enough to make it off its home planet is a stretch I will not make without, you know, proof. ;) The Fermi paradox is another part of the equation (ahhh.. what a relief it is, Google for instant information).
I am more used to using the equation to argue for the likelihood of extraterrestrial life. I think this is the first time I've seen it used to dissuade the possibility of visitation of same :eyesmoke:
 

Seamaiden

Well-Known Member
Remember, I've never said that I refute the possibility of extraterrestrial life, just the likelihood that there has been life not only intelligent enough to have interplanetary travel, but INTERSTELLAR travel, and add to that being around at the right time to have visited earth. I just don't buy it. But microbial life, or even slightly more advanced forms? Yeah, I think it's entirely possible.
 

Jointsmith

Well-Known Member
Well, logically, it is inconceivable that there is no other life forms beyond our planet in the whole universe. So I believe in aliens, the only question arises is how they managed to make it way out here, but that is neither here nor there.

The only reason why the theory of evolution exists is because monkeys are bipedal and we form the assumption that we came from them hence we share a few traits. Thats not good enough. I have said this before, and I shall say it again, we do not know anything, that is you, me, scientists. For hundreds of years we thought the planet was flat and the Earth was the center of the universe. No, I am not going to put any faith behind man.
Actually we have DNA over 99% similar to that of a Chimpanzee or Banobo. I'd say thats a similarity more important than merely being bipedal.

Maybe some of you religious NUTS should do some READING on SCIENCE if you want to have a scientific debate.

DNA, protiens, gene's, alelles, polysacarides etc are the building blocks of LIFE. These componants are the same in HUMANS and they are in ALL eukryotic and prokryotic cells (plants, animals, fungi, bacteria, ALL LIFE)

Scientists aren't just pulling this whole 'WE ARE ANIMALS THAT HAVE EVOLVED ON EARTH' thing out of their asses, I don't really see what part of it is debatable....... (Unless you're suggesting Scientists would FAKE evidence which I find very unlikely).

What sparked LIFE is a whole other debate. Personally I think it it was a lightning strike, But then I believe Electricity is 'GOD'.
 
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We TaRdED

Well-Known Member
In regards to aliens, you have to check this out!!! They are saying that we have been visited by aliens and we are actually emulating their technology(space ships)Start watching at 3mins.


YouTube - U.F.O DISCLOSURE PROJECT U.FO MEETING

As far as it being real or fake I have no idea, you tell me. Interesting watch regardless, and I think it will amuse you.

Apparently, if this vid is true, we have anti-gravity machines(flying saucers) that are capable of hyper-light speeds(over 186,000 miles/second), faster than the speed of light. This would be the end of the looming energy crisis.

I have no idea as of what to believe, it seems like it could be legitimate but its kind of far fetched for the average joe to fathom. What do you guys think, a hoax or real?


:peace:
 

email468

Well-Known Member
In regards to aliens, you have to check this out!!! They are saying that we have been visited by aliens and we are actually emulating their technology(space ships)Start watching at 3mins.


YouTube - U.F.O DISCLOSURE PROJECT U.FO MEETING

As far as it being real or fake I have no idea, you tell me. Interesting watch regardless, and I think it will amuse you.

Apparently, if this vid is true, we have anti-gravity machines(flying saucers) that are capable of hyper-light speeds(over 186,000 miles/second), faster than the speed of light. This would be the end of the looming energy crisis.

I have no idea as of what to believe, it seems like it could be legitimate but its kind of far fetched for the average joe to fathom. What do you guys think, a hoax or real?


:peace:

I would put this information on par with finding Santa's workshop at the North Pole.
 

We TaRdED

Well-Known Member
I would put this information on par with finding Santa's workshop at the North Pole.
~LOL~ Haha!! Ya its pretty insane. So you all ready watched the WHOLE vid email?

I just wonder what their motives are. How would they benefit from the UFO disclosure? Why would all of these people be lying? Some of the people are apparently credible sources, so why would they lie? These are some reasons why I'm stumped. I guess I'm really gullible or too open minded. :mrgreen:


:peace:
 

email468

Well-Known Member
~LOL~ Haha!! Ya its pretty insane. So you all ready watched the WHOLE vid email?

I just wonder what their motives are. How would they benefit from the UFO disclosure? Why would all of these people be lying? Some of the people are apparently credible sources, so why would they lie? These are some reasons why I'm stumped. I guess I'm really gullible or too open minded. :mrgreen:


:peace:
I think the questions you should ask are .. how could they NOT benefit from UFO disclosure? the book and interview deals alone would make it worth while. Why would they lie? Why does anyone lie... the attention, the book deals, or maybe they are just deluded or mentally unstable.

Bottom line is keeping this concealed makes no sense whatsoever given the benefits to full (or even partial) disclosure. If you think the US government can get folks whipped up for a war with Iraq - image the money that would flow to protect us from aliens!

Taking these social-economic reasons along with the science (it is HIGHLY unlikely we are being visited) is reason enough for me to be skeptical.
 
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We TaRdED

Well-Known Member
Bottom line is keeping this concealed makes no sense whatsoever given the benefits to full (or even partial) disclosure. If you think the US government can get folks whipped up for a war with Iraq - image the money that would flow to protect us from aliens!
.
Why the hell do we have 'these' people running our country again? This is not a rhetorical question BTW...

edit- So after we take over the middle east, is our 'intelligence' is going to say that the aliens have WMD and are harboring terrorist too?(that was rhetorical) Haha.... What a world we live in. :D

:peace:
 
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medicineman

New Member
Not to, well yeah I guess I am discounting your Drake equation. 1st, it only applies to our Galaxy and there are billions of Galaxies. 2nd, if it is possible to travel faster than the speed of light, (WE really don't know), extraterrestials may come from the outer reaches of space, being as you are a star treck fan, you should know about wormholes, or other space oddities such as folding space, so distance may not be a problem. Remember, the big bang theory is just a theory. Since none of us were around 9-12 Billion years ago, who can really say. To think we are the only intelligent beings in this vast universe would be kind of vane. I'd say. Maybe the religious people can believe that but since I am a spiritualist and adhere to no religion per-se, I believe that there are billions of other beings in the universe some more advanced than us, some less, geeze, I hope I don't end up on one of the less advanced planets.
So in conclusion, I can't prove my theory and you really can't prove yours, But using common sense again or the odds, it would suggest there are more beings in the vastness of the universe which with our most advanced telescopes we can't see an end to.
Have I seen an extraterrestial, not to my knowledge. But if they look like us, who really knows.
My point in this is: Man is a primal being and really doesn't know squat. All his supposed theories are just that, a theory. So if you are trying to prove something with a "theory", you're fooling yourself.
 

email468

Well-Known Member
It is not my equation - it is Drakes. You'll forgive me if I give more credence to people's theories who actually study this stuff.
 

ViRedd

New Member
1. Maybe some of you religious NUTS should do some READING on SCIENCE if you want to have a scientific debate.

2. What sparked LIFE is a whole other debate. Personally I think it it was a lightning strike, But then I believe Electricity is 'GOD'.
1. And this is where the debate usually ends up. No one mentioned religion ... only faith. You have faith in Mankind descending from monkeys, right? At least you show no physical proof of what you espouse, and yet, those who present the mere possibility of Intelligent Design are labeled "NUTS." This is the very same thing that happens over and over in this forum. If a person is pro-liberty, then that person is labeled a "Bush supporter." ~lol~

2. One of the premier advocates of Evolution, an Atheist, in Stein's movie made the same assertion as you ... that life began as the result of a lightening strike. I'll ask you the same question Stein asked him ... How did the lightening strike originate?

Vi
 

ZenMaster

Well-Known Member
Actually we have DNA over 99% similar to that of a Chimpanzee or Banobo. I'd say thats a similarity more important than merely being bipedal.

Maybe some of you religious NUTS should do some READING on SCIENCE if you want to have a scientific debate.

DNA, protiens, gene's, alelles, polysacarides etc are the building blocks of LIFE. These componants are the same in HUMANS and they are in ALL eukryotic and prokryotic cells (plants, animals, fungi, bacteria, ALL LIFE)

Scientists aren't just pulling this whole 'WE ARE ANIMALS THAT HAVE EVOLVED ON EARTH' thing out of their asses, I don't really see what part of it is debatable....... (Unless you're suggesting Scientists would FAKE evidence which I find very unlikely).

What sparked LIFE is a whole other debate. Personally I think it it was a lightning strike, But then I believe Electricity is 'GOD'.
My biology professor said that our DNA is 99.98% identical to a rat, so that doesn't prove anything.

I love science, in fact, I have taken many courses in chemistry and physics, so whats your point? We are all made of DNA and proteins and all that, but thats not my argument. It is not fathomable that those little building blocks would evolve into us over any given amount of time without some sort of design. Do you have any idea how complicated your circulatory system is?

 

medicineman

New Member
It is not my equation - it is Drakes. You'll forgive me if I give more credence to people's theories who actually study this stuff.
As I said, drakes theory only included our Galaxie, there are untold galaxies in an unknown amount of space. Therefore much unknown. So with so much unknown, you give creedence to one mans theory. What I've contended is man doesn't know squat, and theories are just someones opinion. Yeah he may be and most assuredly is more educated than me, but when it comes to opinions, mine may be as valid as his. I'm always amazed by the vanity by which man, a tiny speck in the universe, claims to have the answers to complex problems. Heck even Einsteins theory of relativity is now under scrutiny for maybe being wrong. Geeze think about that, Einstein the most brilliant man in physics in the last 200 years may have been wrong. How vane are we?
 
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