Is real sour diesel still clone only?
- Thread starter cmbajr
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ProfessorPotSnob
New Member
I ll take Ae77's Chrome Diesel any day of the week over the rest .. Diesel with Fuel and it punches one in the head quick and best of all she is stable ! Any others here smoke some Chrome ? If so speak up lol
dankydonky
Active Member
as far as i know the riri cut is a cut that has been bred before te ECSD,swerve from CC has it,maybe he can come here andexplain something more
Jogro
Well-Known Member
In this case I strongly doubt it.
Again, we're simply not starting with an inbred line here, but a hybrid, and its a question of heterosis.
I can't say specifically which traits (which is why I said "probably not") but with a unique polyhybrid like ECSD its a fairly safe bet that at least some of the interesting traits of the original (particularly those dealing with scent/flavor and growth) REQUIRE heterozygosity to be expressed.
No amount of crossing can "stabilize" an "Aa" heterozygote into a homozygous/true-breeding form. That's the problem. If you make the locus in question homozygous (true breeding) you lose the trait. And if you take ALL the heterozygous traits of the original and make them homozygous, you're probably going to be leaving behind at least some of what makes the original "clone only" strain interesting.
Put more simply, one of the interesting traits of ECSD is probably "hybrid vigor", which simply cannot be stabilized.
I think you're still missing my point. You're quoting from the textbook talking about finding genes and creating heterozygotes.
Yes, of course you can isolate any given trait with enough selection. The point is that by their very nature some traits are not "true breeding".
Sure, if you look hard enough you can find an AA plant, and find an aa plant, and then cross them to consistently yield "Aa"s.
But once you have that Aa, more inbreeding won't generate only "Aa"s. Try it, and you'll always throw off 25% each AA and aa.
More specifically, if AA is red and aa is blue and Aa is purple, then you can NEVER generate a true-breeding purple line, because purple simply doesn't breed true.
Cross any two purple plants and you'll always get 1/4 each red and blue ones. Cross a purple and a red and you'll always get half-red plants half-purple ones. Cross a purple and a blue, and you'll always get half-blue and half-purple.
With careful parent selection you should be able to put out a pack of ceeds that grow out all purple plants, they just won't be "true breeding" in the commonly accepted definition of that term (ie many or most of the offspring will not be similar to the parents). They'll be hybrids.
For clarity, I'm using a deliberately simplified example of codominance with one allele. Some of the genetic factors that control traits of interest are probably more complicated, making selection harder and expression in offspring rarer.
For example, now say to make a purple plant you need not just Aa, but AaBbCcDd. With that requirement, if you crossed two purple plants, only 1 in 16 offspring would be expected to be purple.
To this "purple" trait, now lets add a "lemon" trait that also requires a specific genotype with four heterozygous allelles (you could call it EeFfGgHh). Cross two AaBbCcDdEeFfGgHh "purple lemons" and you'd expect only 1 in 256 of their offspring to be a "purple lemon". The other 255 could range from "highly similar" to "highly different" depending on what phenotypes were associated with the various allelic combinations.
In this example the "purple lemon" pheno is a rare hybrid. Not only is "purple lemon" not true breeding, there is really NOTHING you can do to create a true breeding purple lemon line. All you can hope to do is to identify or create two parents that will always throw off purple lemons.
Actually doing it might be easy or hard, depending on your ability to do selections for A, B, C, and D. Some of those particular genotypes may not have selectable associated phenos, and then you're stuck with your punnet squares, math, and "dumb luck".
Get it?
Well, in a case like ECSD you're literally talking about a genetic individual. The "gene pool" in question is at MOST two different copies of each allelle, which although not "zero" genetic diversity, isn't very much.
To be clear, hemp itself has also been selectively bred by man for fiber. As far as I know, nobody really knows what the "original" cannabis strain looked like or even if it still exists. But yes, in the case of a specific individual polyhybrid plant like ECSD, which is in effect just a special "mutt", talking about genetic "purity" is a bit bizarre. The whole "problem" here is that ECSD is NOT "pure", which is why recreating it in ceed form isn't a trivial exercise.
Depends what you're trying to do, I think. For example, if you were breeding a line intended for lab research, extreme homogeneity could be useful.
I'd say that in THIS context, the goal is to create a pack of ceeds where some or even better all of the plants have flavor, scent, high, and growth characteristics approximating those of "the real sour diesel". Again, accepting certain limitations here, I definitely think it can be done.
OGEvilgenius
Well-Known Member
Aa traits can be captured in seed if the parents are AAxaa (or a true F1). It's a pretty complicated issue and honestly none of us know who the parents of ECSD are and what their true lineage is.
If the parents aren't true breeding it's going to be difficult to capture in seed form (I mean, truly capture a nearly genetically identical or identical plant), although certainly possible if you can grow millions of plants (in other words, not particularly realistic).
They will never be true breeding, and I think there is probably some confusion here as to how this term is being used as well between the two parties discussing this topic, but maybe not.
If the parents aren't true breeding it's going to be difficult to capture in seed form (I mean, truly capture a nearly genetically identical or identical plant), although certainly possible if you can grow millions of plants (in other words, not particularly realistic).
They will never be true breeding, and I think there is probably some confusion here as to how this term is being used as well between the two parties discussing this topic, but maybe not.
mrueeda
Well-Known Member
Maybe youre talkin about AJ sour diesel, which is the cut that swerve has...From what i understood this was the original strain ((chemdawgxmassSS)xNl), then came theECSD (AJ sourd x DNL) when the DNL hermed and pollinated the AJ cut...But i have no idea of what this riri actually is...maybe only a cut found in rez gear, or from some S1s of AJ or ECSD...?
Bigtacofarmer
Well-Known Member
I'd like to smoke some straight Sour D, the ECSD is one of my all time favorite smokes. I have tried Rez (tasted right but weak), Reefermans (barely any relation), and so many crosses I can't even start to list. The ECSD is in a league of it own and while theres a little magic in all the crosses I've tried, none even start to compare. I will be grabbing some of the OSD from CC, and hoping for the best. I'm sure there are some great representations in seed form, I just haven't been lucky enough to smoke one.
Banditt
Well-Known Member
I'm running the OSD from CC right now from seed. They are just now going into flower. I've grown real sour D before. And so far these seeds look and smell the part. We'll see how they turn out. I'll try to remember this thread and throw up some pics and shit when they get a little farther into flower for you other guys interested in this strain.
colocowboy
Well-Known Member
I think at this point it is a matter of semantics in the discussion with jogro, by the end of that last post I am certain were talking about the same coin. Your just disputing the specific traits that you have found desirable in ecsd. I haven't personally tried to work with that individual, I cannot comment. I would argue yet that it is not impossible, and no I wasn't just quoting textbook answers for the sake of it, it was supporting the mathematical model of how these observations are predicted. Finding the right pairing may be hard but not impossible, which if I am not mistaken you actually agree with that statement despite coming out saying I am wrong!
Ok, reference for support of argument, sorry can't help it fella!
The purpose of selective breeding is to realign "Aa" pairs, that's what I said and I stand by it it is a FACT. You even proof it there! I think YOU don't even get what your saying!
Hybrid Vigor is not a genetic trait, by it's very definition it is vigor obtained by hybridization!
Not true, what do you think a population does when allowed to go wild and survival of the fittest is allowed to be the selective agent? There are "wild" populations all over even in the US. Ever heard the term "ditch weed"? I and MANY others have "seen" this phenomenon. This is one of those points I was talking about before, your expressing your opinion as a fact. In fact the nature of cannabis naturally in the environment is toward hemp, if I quote sources your just going to complain but with my own eyes have seen this phenomenon. I saw beautiful buds that were as sterile for thc as banana peels growing next to a train track in Missouri! lol The local farmers are aware, it stems back to when it wasn't illegal to grow hemp of course, but apparently from time to time an individual shows up that has drug traits. Imagine that!
Ok, reference for support of argument, sorry can't help it fella!
**rats, you still got me to commit time to analyzing one of your lengthy posts..... RATS!**
Jogro
Well-Known Member
I think we know why breeding is done. The point is to take traits from different lines and combine them into a new line of your design.
My point is that you can realign these heterozygous loci all you like, you just can't ever make them into a true-breeding line.
Its a trait (ie a genetically related phenotype) just not one linked to a single specific allele. In any case I was just using that as a commonly understood example of why you cant expect to stabilize a hybridized line without losing something along the way.
Well, of course my "opinions" aren't fact when they're pulled directly out of your butt and bear no relation to anything I've actually posted.
Sure, feral cannabis (ie the ditchweed you're talking about) loses its THC under natural selection. Where did I say or even imply otherwise?
You were talking about "pure" lines and again, what I said is that nobody knows what the "original" cannabis strain looks like. Specifically nobody knows exactly what this plant looked like 15,000 years ago before humans started cultivating it. In fact, there is good reason to believe that unlike just about every current strain known, cannabis was originally a perennial plant, like every other dioecious plant.
If you're saying that American feral cannabis (call it hemp, if you like) has reverted in appearance and other characteristics to exactly resemble the pre-human cannabis plant, then you're the one making a mistake. This is almost certainly NOT true, and its not just because the Americanized strains are derived from post-selected genetic stock, but much more importantly because they have adapted to a totally different growing environment.
As you know, different wild cannabis populations look and behave quite differently. IE what grows wild in Indiana looks quite different than what's found on the Mountains in Nepal, and that in turn looks different than what's found on the Steppes of Siberia. Plants growing wild near the Himalayas might be the closest thing to the original plant, since the plant is thought to have originally arisen there, but maybe not. . .environmental conditions there have probably changed in the last 150 centuries. Again, nobody really knows.
And where did I say anything different?
With respect to Dr. Clarke, although I agree with his point here (and by extension what you're saying), I think he's putting it in a fairly artful way.
I'd say that while useful to humans, fiber and drug production are disadvantageous for plant survival in the wild, and because of that, natural selective pressures will tend to eliminate these traits from wild cannabis populations.
kaneboy
Well-Known Member
the riri cut is a pheno of rez sour diesel found in france i think,ive run rez sour diesel ibl and found a couple real nice examples of sour diesel ,not a huge yeilder but extremely aaa class herb,also found nice sour diesel phenos in hortilabs super sour diesel,got 3 seeds left of rez sd hopefully make sum seeds
Jogro
Well-Known Member
You bet. And they can be captured CONSISTENTLY into ceeds, which is what you are implying.
Anyway, agreeing entirely with everything else in that last post, these genetic arguments are going nowhere. Its just wheel spinning and silly bickering at this point.
What I'd really like to see, more than anything else, are more posts by people who have actually grown these sour diesel like lines, and what they think of them.
So far, I haven't seen anyone say that they've purchased some pack of ceeds where most or all of the ceeds yielded something just like ECSD, and in fact, most growers are reporting that it hasn't been their experience.
colocowboy
Well-Known Member
Dude, your crazy man and you talk in circles!
I think enough samples have been given for reasonable folks to determine whats up! Bicker is a good word, it sucks I'm done..
Original Sour Diesel from CC is really good, a real representation of what I toked and was told was sour d years back. True breeding or not it's good and many individuals per pack are keepers in the range that one expect from something called original sour diesel. It's has that delicious chem/fuel/kerosine/diesel smell taste with that nice sweet to sour finish/exhale. The high is soaring up with a slight bonk behind the eyes to make you feel cheechified. One of these days I'll do a smoke report on it.
I think enough samples have been given for reasonable folks to determine whats up! Bicker is a good word, it sucks I'm done..
Original Sour Diesel from CC is really good, a real representation of what I toked and was told was sour d years back. True breeding or not it's good and many individuals per pack are keepers in the range that one expect from something called original sour diesel. It's has that delicious chem/fuel/kerosine/diesel smell taste with that nice sweet to sour finish/exhale. The high is soaring up with a slight bonk behind the eyes to make you feel cheechified. One of these days I'll do a smoke report on it.
weedwizard7777
Member
I am growing sour diesel #2 from Humboldt Seed Organization right now, your welcome to come watch my videos on you tube...follow along and see if it is something you want to grow. Best of luck in your endeavors.
weedwizard7777
Member
I am growing Original Sour Diesel, from Cali Connection right now, your welcome to come see on you tube. Hoping mine are as good as yours, thanks for the preview.
weedwizard7777
Member
Thanks for adding sanity to this thread. Your argument is why I try to grow as many variations as are available of a particular strain "family" I grow them all out and select what I feel is best...I could care less what it's actuall pedigree is....is it fire in every way? than who cares? does it resemble the strain you seek? I have found grower technique to be far more divisive in quality than most quality modern genetics. You try growing seed that every seed is perfect no matter how lame the grower, lol.
weedwizard7777
Member
I guess I am just failing to see the relevance of your arguments with each other, maybe just a pissing contest perhaps? Need to get laid?
NevilleS.2013
Active Member
The owner of a seed co. in Amsterdam in the '90s was the first person I knew of who was using the name Diesel and THAT plant was NL5HzCxSK1HzC. What people have been calling Diesel since then, I don't know anything about. If you want to know who that was, do your homework