Jogro
Well-Known Member
Because if you spell it correctly, the website inserts an automatic link to its se-ed vendor.
That annoys me, so I've adopted the cilly ceed cpelling.
Is real sour diesel still clone only?
- Thread starter cmbajr
- Start date
That annoys me, so I've adopted the cilly ceed cpelling.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Swerve,
Again, I have zero doubt that your sour diesel line comes from the real mccoy and makes plants similar enough to the clone only line that anyone interested in a product like that will probably be satisfied. If I were interested in growing something like this from ceed, your version would be on a pretty short list of lines I'd be looking at.
Is it the "real" sour diesel? Well, that's a matter of semantics (see below). Again, presuming the original is a unique hybrid pheno, you're probably not going to be able to come up with a genetically identical plant no matter how many crosses or backcrosses you do.
But with appropriate crossing and selection, can you create something that has all or most of the same characteristics and for practical purposes is the same thing? I think so.
What did I say that was incorrect?
With due respect, I've probably forgotten more about genetics than you've ever known. Mentioning Clarke's (that's with a "e") book doesn't mean you actually understand it, let alone can apply it here.
Contrary to what you state, by definition, a strain is a collection of different plants with similar characteristics, derived from a common ancestor. Since strains can arise via genetic bottleneck, human-derived selective pressure isn't actually necessary to generate a "strain". But this is getting off track.
Back on point, the original question was asking for "real sour diesel". So what is "real sour diesel"? There is more than one line out there with that name now, and that's really the issue here.
If by "sour diesel" you mean something genetically identical to the original clone only ECSD, you're not going to find ceeds like that. Even S1 ceeds created by effectively crossing two sour diesel clones won't put off offspring identical to the original. Bluntly, if it were so easy to create a good sour diesel line, everyone would have one! (Hence the term "clone only").
On the other hand, if by "sour diesel" you mean any plant related to the clone only line that has similar characteristics of scent, taste, high, structure, then absolutely you can get ceeds like that, and right now there are multiple vendors/breeders who offer something like that.
Cali-Connection/Swerve has his version, Dr. Greenthumb offers feminized ECSD S1, Reserva Privada has a version, as does Humboldt Seed Organization.
There are a few others selling ceeds they call "sour diesel", though as Swerve implied, its not at all clear to me what the genetic relationship between their lines and the clone-only line is.
Fresh 2 De@th
Well-Known Member
got to agree with Jorgo on this one, unless you use the same mother and father and find a pheno very identical to a specific pheno type, all you will come up with is something close to it if your lucky.
if you do some research, you see people always asking about sour diesel seeds and how they grew x's of it it wasn't like the real deal. plenty of threads out there for anyone to miss.
also, Swerve no disrespect, but there are quiete a few people talking about the osd is nothing like diesel. don't get me wrong, it's not a bad thing but it's not very diesel like either.
if you do some research, you see people always asking about sour diesel seeds and how they grew x's of it it wasn't like the real deal. plenty of threads out there for anyone to miss.
also, Swerve no disrespect, but there are quiete a few people talking about the osd is nothing like diesel. don't get me wrong, it's not a bad thing but it's not very diesel like either.
colocowboy
Well-Known Member
Please!
Don't correct a simple typo and presume to be either factually or intellectually superior. I'll spare us both the complete analysis but your first three sentence states that:
Then you say it wasn't ever stabilized and "probably can't be" = I DON"T KNOW BUT QUOTE ME lol come on man
Then you say probably never will be seeds exactly like the original, which being that I did understand botany among other disciplines I learned in COLLEGE including this reference it is clearly stated that 100% homogeneity is statistically impossible.
While your at it dropping yet another long winded albeit shortsighted viewpoint explain how you can have a "clone only line"?
One last thing, I have found that the more adamant the claim to wisdom the farther from the case!
Don't correct a simple typo and presume to be either factually or intellectually superior. I'll spare us both the complete analysis but your first three sentence states that:
Your first sentence makes no sense at all, stoner
Then you say it wasn't ever stabilized and "probably can't be" = I DON"T KNOW BUT QUOTE ME lol come on man
Then you say probably never will be seeds exactly like the original, which being that I did understand botany among other disciplines I learned in COLLEGE including this reference it is clearly stated that 100% homogeneity is statistically impossible.
While your at it dropping yet another long winded albeit shortsighted viewpoint explain how you can have a "clone only line"?
One last thing, I have found that the more adamant the claim to wisdom the farther from the case!
colocowboy
Well-Known Member
This is the difference of what a breeder is attempting to do, the process is called cubing and it utilizes selective pressure as you just described. As you noted this is the difference between luck and skill at breeding!
that answers my question, thank you. i have smoked this one.....theres nothing on the street like it, the person i know that has it paid damn good coin for it. i think there were a few people there when it was acquired that also paid up for it. i have it crossed with a bubba gum from tga....makes for a wicked sour, mint, diesel FUNK ....i believe the funk is the taste you spoke of...cant find it anywhere else...ty,again....peace
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Please!
Don't try to make an appeal to authority if you can't even bother to cite the author's name correctly. Is that what they taught you in COLLEGE?
If you'd care to quote something specific that Clarke wrote that you think contradicts something I wrote, or helps to illuminate something in some other way, by all means please do. But merely "dropping" his name (incorrectly to boot) doesn't add authority to anything you say, let alone disprove anything I've written.
Just because you don't understand what I wrote, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.Your first sentence makes no sense at all, stoner
By most accounts, "sour diesel" was created as an accidental cross between hybrid parents. That means that the creation of that particular plant represented a sort of genetic "roll of the dice" that you can't necessarily expect to reproduce even if you had the original parents.
As an analogy, no matter how many brothers and sisters your parents make, you can't expect any of them to be identical to "colocowboy". At best some might be "spitting images", but the more of an outlier you are on the genetic bell curve making you special, the less likely this is to happen.
This is an argument?
Again, by most accounts "sour diesel" is the result of an accidental cross between a hybrid strain and a hybridized regional skunk strain. That makes the original a "polyhybrid" and by all accounts I've seen (and congruent with common sense), the clone only line will put out a number of different phenos if self-pollinated. So I don't think anyone really disputes that the original (ie the "real sour diesel") wasn't ever stabilized and is unstable.
Now absolutely, you can start with this clone only plant as a parent and repeatedly inbreed it to try and stabilize it. Along the way, assuming you generate enough plants to do a proper selection, you'll probably come across any number that are phenotypically similar to the parent. Eventually, assuming you do the proper selection over enough generations you'll end up with something that is stable and retains most of the interesting traits from the original parent. If you're lucky, you may even end up with something BETTER than the original in some ways.
In fact, this sort of thing HAS been done. For example Reservoir seeds at one point offered a sour-diesel IBL that was created this way, and a few others purport to offer things like this.
The reason you CANNOT create a truly stable "real sour diesel" is because the very process of stabilizing it necessarily alters its genetics. Specifically, as a polyhybrid, the original parent plant is going to be heterozygous at multiple genetic loci, having different copies of multiple key genes from each different parent. This, as one example, provides for the "hybrid vigor" (or "heterosis") that growers are after, and that makes plants like the original special. But once you stabilize the line, by definition you MUST eliminate this heterozygosity. The very fact of stabilizing it means your now stable line HAS TO be genetically different than the original; the only question is how different, and to what extent are the differences significant in terms of the specific features that make the line interesting.
Now the reason I said "probably" is simply because I don't know how significant these differences are. From my perspective, I don't see how its you can remove most of the genetic variance from this line yet still retain every unique and important feature of the original parent, but not having worked this line for years myself, I can't say for sure its impossible. Of course the ones trying to sell you these lines always claim that their line is authentic and like the original, etc. Doesn't make it true.
Back on point, are ceeds genetically descended from, yet different than the original the "real sour diesel"? That depends a little on your perspective, and what you mean by "the real sour diesel".
If you're so obsessed with purity that you "need" to have "the real sour diesel" you probably should be looking for the clone only line. For anyone else, I think one of the better inbred lines is probably more than satisfactory.
I've just explained why you can't inbreed a line like this to get ceeds exactly like the original. As mentioned above, along the way you can come close, and probably "close enough" to satisfy anyone other than the most crazed purist, though.
On your comment, there is a difference between genotypic homogeneity and phenotypic.
Even genetically homogeneous identical twins will still look a little different and can have slightly different traits. Likewise, two cuttings from the same sour diesel mother may exhibit different characteristics depending on the environment. IE, one goes "hermie", one doesn't, etc.
In the case of plant lines, well established inbred lines usually aren't entirely genetically homogeneous, but they are phenotypically homogeneous to the point where every plant expresses similar traits. You can cross any two individuals from any generation like that and the offspring will all be similar to the parents and each other. You can even self-pollinate plants like that and the offspring will be similar to the parent.
With enough "bottleneck" inbreeding, it actually is possible to achieve pure genetic homogeneity if you really want it, though I'd argue that you probably DON'T for any number of reasons I won't get into here.
The point is, this simply isn't true of the original sour diesel line.
You really don't know what a "clone only" plant is? You mean to say that "clone only" lines aren't mentioned in Clarke's book?
OK. . .By definition a clone only plant is simply one of interest where ceeds to perpetuate the line aren't available.
This can happen for a variety of reasons, but relevant here, the two most common reason are:
a. The plant itself is a hybrid, and its parents are either unknown, unavailable, or maybe both. Or
b. The plant itself represents a rare unique phenotype that can't be easily recreated from the parents. (EG it may even be a mutant).
colocowboy
Well-Known Member
Your half a tard, I cited exactly what you fucked up. Thats your problem man you talk all kinds of shit like you know whats up telling all kinds of newbies half truth like your some guru and I have read it sideways for the last time and I'm calling bullshit. You forgot half of what you knew or some shit is right, more like you repeated half of what your read.
Blah, blah, blah, your even worse than hazy g with your nonsensical blather....
Blah, blah, blah, your even worse than hazy g with your nonsensical blather....
Jogro
Well-Known Member
"Cubing" is just a fancy way of describing repeated backcrossing.
This process can be used to stabilize CERTAIN traits (if their expression requires homozygosity). At best, it might be able to reconstitute a version of an inbred line from one parent.
But because of issues with phenotypes and obligate heterozygosity I mentioned in the last post, and contrary to the mistaken belief of lots of amateur breeders who don't understand genetics, you CANNOT expect repeated backcrosses to stabilize the genetics of a unique polyhybrid (eg "clone only") plant.
More simply, if you could stabilize any line simply by backcrossing it three times, then any "clone only" line could be exactly replicated in ceed form in a year. Its simply not true.
colocowboy
Well-Known Member
If you pull anything else out of your ass I will be impressed by your capacity! lol
The process of cubing is to reduce unwanted traits and exemplify those traits that a given breeder is looking for... plain and simple. The reason you don't want to do the punnet squares and the math behind it is because you don't understand it and it is irrelevant to proving your point. Statistically proofing for genetic influence estimates the filial generations necessary to achieve things like trait representation, percentage of desired individuals, and ability to breed true. That is their purpose in this context Mr. Knowitol.
Poke a hole in the blow hard and watch him bleed all over the pages. Your talking in circles and putting words in my mouth. Did you forget your meds today or something!
Jogro
Well-Known Member
So, other than the profanity and name-calling, got anything else to say?
Yeah . . .didn't think so.
Tell you what, since clearly I'm not adding anything here, why don't you use Rollitup's nice "ignore" feature, and put me on ignore, so you don't have to read any more of my "bullshit".
Have a great night.
colocowboy
Well-Known Member
Nah, you need to get taken down a notch. I have watched you shit in people threads for a while now, a little reality check will keep the bad info to a limit.
***btw... It's not personal, I just have a problem with the fact that your dribble has consumed a part of my life I cannot retrieve therefore you shall share my loss. The included irritation is for misleading people with unfounded cyclic babble!
You have a great night too fella!
ExtremeMetal43
Active Member
Can someone explain what the ECSD(east coast sour diesel) cut is. Whats the difference between the other Sour D cuts. The only time I had the ECSD it was way different than the other sour D's which r good. A Guy got it from Philly i think.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Like many of these lines, the true history is a bit obscure.
The ECSD is supposed to be the original "sour diesel" bred from an accidental pollination of chemdawg '91 and a hybrid of Northern lights and a New England grown Super-Skunk strain. The story of Chemdawg '91 is itself a bit controversial too.
I don't know about other "cuts", but as mentioned, there are any number of lines now called "sour diesel" many of which are derived from ECSD, and tracing these things back can be tough.
Maybe Swerve can chime in on this; I think he'd have a good perspective.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Let me give you a "hint"; I'm not the one being "taken down" by your name calling.
If you think what I'm saying is wrong, and want to give me a "reality check" then how about correcting me directly. Is that so hard?
Maybe it is, because you haven't tried it yet.
That's a good explanation of the main reason to do it, sure.
Relevant here, you can't start with ECSD, "cube" it, and expect to create ceeds that will yield all similar plants. Do you disagree?
I'm not quite sure why you are talking about Punnet squares; I didn't bring those up.
I agree those are irrelevant. . .so why on earth are you talking about them? Just to prove that you know "something" about genetics?
.
Where did THIS come from? Who was talking about doing these sorts of calculations or counting filial generations? Certainly not me.
You post these things. . .do you have even the foggiest idea what they mean?
Come again? Where you did post anything that contradicted anything I posted?
Really, quoting lines from the breeders manual is one thing; understanding and applying them. . .something different.
Jogro
Well-Known Member
Back on topic, for what its worth, here are two accounts of the creation of sour diesel:
https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/108666-anybody-else-really-excited-about.html#post1306893
http://weedyard.com/Strains/Chem91.html
And here is a post I made earlier on "clone only" strains in seed form. Some good bits in rest of the thread too.
https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/581388-kens-gdp-you-have-joking-2.html#post8245273
Apparently its not uncommon for growers who buy ceed versions of "clone only" lines to end up disappointed.
With respect to ceed versions of sour diesel, if you really want to learn more, there are a lot of threads up on different people's experiences growing different ones. You can just do a search on this, and there is a lot of info out there.
My quick take is that, unsurprisingly, some of these ceeded lines have issues with hermies. Also, a number of people have said that the particular ceed version they've grown ended up not the same as the clone only version they've grown and/or smoked. There are also posts of people happy with what they got, too.
As Swerve said, do your homework, then make your decision.
https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/108666-anybody-else-really-excited-about.html#post1306893
http://weedyard.com/Strains/Chem91.html
And here is a post I made earlier on "clone only" strains in seed form. Some good bits in rest of the thread too.
https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/581388-kens-gdp-you-have-joking-2.html#post8245273
Apparently its not uncommon for growers who buy ceed versions of "clone only" lines to end up disappointed.
With respect to ceed versions of sour diesel, if you really want to learn more, there are a lot of threads up on different people's experiences growing different ones. You can just do a search on this, and there is a lot of info out there.
My quick take is that, unsurprisingly, some of these ceeded lines have issues with hermies. Also, a number of people have said that the particular ceed version they've grown ended up not the same as the clone only version they've grown and/or smoked. There are also posts of people happy with what they got, too.
As Swerve said, do your homework, then make your decision.
the ecsd is the cut that 90% of people have of sour diesel.. is the same cut rez made and based his sour d seed line off of...its dank just not like its sister the original sour diesel clone.. which is all kerosine and has the hit that lasts...the original sour diesel cut is also reffered to as aj cut aka assholejoe aka weasel. the guy who created the sour d on accident.. the person who sour diesel came from the ecsd etc.
Fresh 2 De@th
Well-Known Member
cubing you say, don't know if you've seen Chimera's thread about cubing, but he believes it to be a myth.
here's a thread for you about what he discovered while breeding, https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/cubing-a-myth-by-chimera.81/
it's like i said, you can't duplicate something by adding an extra component, all you can do is find something similar (traits) but never the same.
colonuggs
Well-Known Member
ECSD is clone only because it was tried and the bitch just wont self herself...she has to be crossedHow can it be a clone only strain....????
To get ECSD...you have to get a cut.....seeds are a crap shoot