Dede7
Member
I think you're my new best friend...lol
600W C99 Organic Scrog
- Thread starter Mechanical
- Start date
Thundercat
Well-Known Member
Lol thanks I try. Gotta appreciate the good things in life, cheers guys enjoy your night.
Adam & Cola
Well-Known Member
lol, I bet my gf wishes my rooster shot out sugar filled candy. Hell, if it did I wouldn't have to wipe up with a towel afterwards. lmao
Jman305
Active Member
Yeah man, those shrooms do look fucking delicious. And Dede, that is the best cake you can ever make a man. Mech, Thundercat had it right, treat that one like a queen!
Edit: On topic?! I hung my plant roots and all (after I washed the roots off), cut off only the lower fan leaves, and left the ones covering the top (bottom when its hanging.) Had my humidity been right, I think this would have been ideal. She dried wayyy too fast, it needs a good 5-7 at constant humidity for flavor, imo. The terpenes do continue to develop after the plant is harvested. As long as there is proper air exchange, and/or air movement within the drying chamber, I wouldn't worry about mold or PM on anything except the excessively dense strains. I divide the plant into two halves; top colas and lower shake/trim/hash.
Edit: On topic?! I hung my plant roots and all (after I washed the roots off), cut off only the lower fan leaves, and left the ones covering the top (bottom when its hanging.) Had my humidity been right, I think this would have been ideal. She dried wayyy too fast, it needs a good 5-7 at constant humidity for flavor, imo. The terpenes do continue to develop after the plant is harvested. As long as there is proper air exchange, and/or air movement within the drying chamber, I wouldn't worry about mold or PM on anything except the excessively dense strains. I divide the plant into two halves; top colas and lower shake/trim/hash.
Mechanical
Well-Known Member
What Im most likely going to do is buy one of those CAP humidity controllers and hook it up to 2 humidifiers in my room. Ill turn my extraction fan on the lowest setting. Ill set the humidity controller to 55%. Ill leave circulation fans running underneath the hanging buds but not directly blowing on them. I'm trying to think what the humidity will be like around here when it comes time to hang them up.
Here is another issue guys. I want to harvest at 52 days BUT I will leave for work on day 50. March the 20th will be 52 days and that is a Wed. What I might do is wait till 54 days which makes it a Fri. That Fri night I will have Dede unplug the lights and I will leave them in darkness for 72 hours till I get home. Thats not what I really want to do but I dont wanna leave one of the most important phases in this growing process up to Dede when I dont even exactly know what to do. I read a pretty interesting study on FinShaggys page about some institute that grows medical weed. They did an experiment with the 72 hour darkness thing and an had increase in thc with no increase of cbds compared to the same clones harvested normally. Again not what I really want to do but damn my job lol..
Here is another issue guys. I want to harvest at 52 days BUT I will leave for work on day 50. March the 20th will be 52 days and that is a Wed. What I might do is wait till 54 days which makes it a Fri. That Fri night I will have Dede unplug the lights and I will leave them in darkness for 72 hours till I get home. Thats not what I really want to do but I dont wanna leave one of the most important phases in this growing process up to Dede when I dont even exactly know what to do. I read a pretty interesting study on FinShaggys page about some institute that grows medical weed. They did an experiment with the 72 hour darkness thing and an had increase in thc with no increase of cbds compared to the same clones harvested normally. Again not what I really want to do but damn my job lol..
Mechanical
Well-Known Member
The left plant has trichs on the small sugar leaves around the pistils so I'm getting happy
3.175'' = +.175/24hrs
No trichs on this one yet but it is not as mature so it will get there!!
3.75'' = +.25''/24hrs
GreatDane
Active Member
Man, I got nothing. I have read what you have about the 3 days of darkness and don't know what it could hurt but I'm not sure. Kite says 52 days with Cindy, but, it seems like you have no choice. If you task DeDe with this, you owe her big time. I don't think a cake would be enough. 
cheechzilla
Active Member
Hey Mech,
Ive done the 72 hour dark period with no watering and didn't notice any better results. Actually negative ones. For starters, the sugar leaves will dry out making it harder to trim and I noticed you wanted to wet trim. Also, it speed up the complete drying time which I didn't take into account, so my ladies dried out too fast even with the ideal atmosphere. I would suggest just having Dede flush them until you get back before harvesting. This will help you learn the process of a traditional trim rather than an experimental 72 hour dark period. Plus the extra couple of days will only help out your plants and take away that impatient feeling we all have to harvest early on our first couple of grows.
Ive done the 72 hour dark period with no watering and didn't notice any better results. Actually negative ones. For starters, the sugar leaves will dry out making it harder to trim and I noticed you wanted to wet trim. Also, it speed up the complete drying time which I didn't take into account, so my ladies dried out too fast even with the ideal atmosphere. I would suggest just having Dede flush them until you get back before harvesting. This will help you learn the process of a traditional trim rather than an experimental 72 hour dark period. Plus the extra couple of days will only help out your plants and take away that impatient feeling we all have to harvest early on our first couple of grows.
Thundercat
Well-Known Member
I've tried dark and no dark, and since I can't get my buds tested I can say I didn't notice a difference in the smoke. I dry/trim differently then some others as we discussed yesterday i think, anyway knowing that you wanted to trim wet I would prolly agree with cheech on the flush until you get home part. I imagine she can still flush the water through them with either outside light or just turn the lights on for a few minutes and water them. I like to leave plants a few days without water at the end to make them use up their reserves from inside. I definitively feel like it gives me better flavor by decreasing the amount of chlorophyll and nutrients in the leaves and buds. Just my 2 cents though.
Kite High
Well-Known Member
I do the 72 hour darkness and I do not preharvest flush. Botanically it can only cause harm not good. N is a required element for driving fermentation (the cure) and chlorophyll is a good source. I do however water in the 72 hour dark. I have noticed a small but tangible inrease in potency in some strains.
heres some info on preharvest flushing that I agree with from experience and botanical knowledge
From an administrator at Sensi Seeds
"Advanced - Flushing
A critical look at preharvest flushing
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.
The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf
The claim only chemical ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes dont serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldnt be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesnt sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."
hope it helps
heres some info on preharvest flushing that I agree with from experience and botanical knowledge
From an administrator at Sensi Seeds
"Advanced - Flushing
A critical look at preharvest flushing
Pre harvest flushing is a controversial topic. Flushing is supposed to improve taste of the final bud by either giving only pure water, clearing solutions or extensive flushing for the last 7-14 days of flowering. While many growers claim a positive effect, others deny any positive influence or even suggest reduced yield and quality.
The theory of pre harvest flushing is to remove nutrients from the grow medium/root zone. A lack of nutrients creates a deficiency, forcing the plant to translocate and use up its internal nutrient compounds.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
A good read about plant nutrition can be found here.
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the mineralization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf
The claim only chemical ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
http://acd.ucar.edu/~eholland/encyc6.html
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes dont serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldnt be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesnt sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."
hope it helps
Thundercat
Well-Known Member
I will add I don't typically do a preharvest flush either, if anything I previously said sounded otherwise I apologise. I will flush my plants if I have reason to think I my have over nuted them, but otherwise I run a perpetual harvest and always have plants in the tray that need nutes. I will usually pull the plants that are about finished out of my tray and just let them sit outside for another few days to a week to start drying out and finish using up any life they have left in them.
Thundercat
Well-Known Member
NO i was just clarifying we have been talking about it tonight and we did the other night. When you brought it up it just made me want to be clear. I agree'd with you cus I've never found a difference with flushing as long as I did a proper dry and cure.
Mechanical
Well-Known Member
Nice Kite.. Why do you do the 72 hours of darkness? I'm not really looking for a benefit. I just don't want to go too far past the 52 day mark.
Thundercat
Well-Known Member
I hope I don't come off wrong, but can I ask why it is your worried about going passed 52 days?
Mechanical
Well-Known Member
Because most people that have grown c99 agree that you get the best high by harvesting around day 52.. Flowering longer increases yield but loses some of its desired affect.. I've never grown it so I'm just basing this off of other peoples experiences..
Thundercat
Well-Known Member
I was just curious what our thoughts were, I've never really tried to get my harvest down to one specific day before. With so many of us running these same C99 genetics right now it will be interesting to see how each one turns out.