LED Companies w/ LINKS

[HiloReign]

I don't consider selling a product to patients with cancer and other "terminal illnesses" funny. Eraserhead called us out and we stand behind our lights. It is not rocket science to make a good spectrum. The research is out there is just takes time to find it all and experiment. We just don't believe in giving all of our hard earned knowledge out.

What we DO believe in is standing behind our lights. Let's just do a head to head and let the results speak for themselves.

If you'd like to bring "patients and cancer" into a discussion where I ask about your lights, that's fine. Though, it doesn't answer any questions. If it isn't rocket science, why can't you offer any more than "I stand by it"?

"Phycocyanin is a pigment-protein complex from the light-harvesting phycobiliprotein family, along with allophycocyanin and phycoerythrin."

Maybe I don't quite understand? I don't see paying $2k for a product and knowing nothing more about it than your opinion and it draws 750w. As a potential customer, not a defender of A51 or whatever you may think, I'm asking for simple things.

 

[stardustsailor]

Well ,sorry to interupt ...
But personally ,as a rocket scientist ...
Phycocyanin and all the rest pigments starting with "phyco -" .....

......"Phyco" comes from greek "(τ&#959 φύκος " and simply means "seaweed " ....
So ...

Since seaweeds have plenty of differences with land-grown higher plants
-and one major difference ,is the PS pigments ,used by each division of
'viridi plantae '(green plants )- it's kinda of misleading ,
to refer to ' maritime plantae ' s pigments found only in seaweeds ,
as they do not exist (even in traces ) in most of higher plants ...

I.e you won't find any Phycocyanin ([το] Φύκος + κυανός = 'Seaweed' + 'blue' ),
to any kind of purple/violet/blue/ect cannabis plant ...
Even if it was grown near the sea or was irrigated with sea-water ..
Even if fish-emulsion or sea-weed (kelp ) was used for fertilising ,
still you won't get any phycocyanin content in mj ....

Now ,if someone manage to cultivate mj under seawater or in hydro using only seawater ......
Dunno ..
Maybe after couple of gens ,things might change ...
Might have first "Cannabis Aquatica " plant ...
...
Just some "rocket science " drops ,there .....

Edit : Moreover .....

Certain bacteria including cyanobacteria, diatoms, dinoflagellates,
brown algae, red algae can also photosynthesize
and have various chlorophyll combinations including Chl c and d.
Sulfur purple bacteria, non-sulfur purple bacteria,
green bacteria, and heliobacteria can have various combinations of bacteriochlorophylls a - g....

Still ,none of these pigments is found-not even in trace amounts - in most of higher plants ...
So ....
W.G .A .F about Phycocyanins or Ch C or similar pigments ?
Who ?

Except if you're growing some rare red algae ,there ..
Then ,ok .. " I'll just pass " ...

 

[stardustsailor]

For crying out loud ...
Been readin' some "biology " on certain led-grow -panel sites ....

.....

Once more ,for those ,"who missed the class "..

Simply put .just summarising ....

-higher green plants are not green .We see them as green with our limited vision .
They do not reflect green light .Not in the way / percentage we simply think based on our vision .

They massively reflect IR light .

They absorb all light starting ~ 280 nm (uvb ) till (up to ) ~ 730/750 nm .....
After ~750 nm light starts to be reflected from plants ....
Actually they glow in an IR camera .(Flouorescence)....

(higher green )Plants do absorb all wls between 280 - 750 nm ,but :

-They do not absorb all wls equally (" pigment absorption spectrums -graphs" )...
-They are able to constantly change their absorption "scheme " depending on many factors (light power /angle / water management/temperatures/ect ) ,so
to fit best for survival and preservation of species.

-Usually different "windows " are left for i.e equalising (distributing) energy to whole canopy (deeper leaves ) ..
"Windows" has a meaning of :certain parts of canopy (i.e top leaves ) do absorb higher amount of certain wls (i.e red ) and let others "pass "
(through reflection or transmittance ..)....So to be used (absorbed ) from other parts of plant (deeper -older leaves ) ....

Moreover...
Light that gets absorbed / "harvested " (in unequally -generally speaking- ways ,but almost all of it in the region of ~280~750 ),
does not get "used ", equally this time ...

(Again the scheme is "elastic " and depending on many genetic and climate factors/variables )

Now ,we 're referring,of course ,to RQE (relative quantum yield / efficiency ) ....

Simply put : how many photons (quanta=packets of energy ) are needed to produce one molecule of sugar (gloucose )
through PS .....

I.e ...

Red light from ~ 600 nm up to 625 nm ,has an RQE of 1 .
That means that for i.e 100 photons harvested (600-625 nm ) , one molecule of gloucose is produced ...(just simply say ..)
Red light at i.e 670 nm has an RQE of 0.93 ....
That means that for 100 photons of 670 nm ,harvested 0.93 of a molecule of gloucose is produced ...
.....
So light ,does get absorbed differently in many ways and used differently in many other ways ...

Thing is this :
Higher green plants use almost all energy of E/M waves from region ~280 nm to ~750 nm .
They have been evolving for millions of years doing so ....
They can use just red light ...
Or just blue ...
Or even they can grow under green light ...
Under yellow ...
Or under different-any-many-combinations ...

They "eat " light ,like me ,you,him,she,all of us can eat cheese ,eggs ,meat ,oranges ,yogurt,duck with orange ,ect ....

They reflect only IR E/m waves ....
(of course under ~280 nm ,E/m waves like UVC -Xrays -microwaves -ect harm every living organism ...Including plants ...)

Now ...

Led light designers ...


This is from my 3rd Michy Star Guide Award interview :

I consider myshelf as a High class Chef ,that has to cook a meal ,for a plant ...
A meal that a plant will eat every day ,so to grow healthy and vigorous ...
With all the "vits ,mins ,carbonhydrs,prots ,fats ,ect "needed ....

I have in my led kitchen ,all the " ingredients " I need ...
( There are plenty of " ingredients "outta there ...)

Each Chef uses it's own ..
Cooking weirdo purple-bluish-reddish -ect meals ...

Mine ,usually are more ...

Pale ....

Having as much as possible of all the "vits ,mins ,carbonhydrs,prots ,fats ,ect " ,needed ...

Red meat ,blue berries ,green celery ,lemons,oranges ,banannas ,milk ,carrots ,ect ...
Many ...colors ....
But at the same time ....
Using as less " ingredients " possible ....
Not many spices,chillies ,salt ,sugar ,fat ,ect ....

Making food smoother ,easier to be "digested" by plants ...
Food ,that no matter if ..." you 've been eatin' it all day ,every day ,you will always ask for more ...."

And food that most of my "female costumers" specially like ...
Sending me lots of flowers ,always ....

I also take special care ,so for my led lights to resemble cooking/ camping stoves ..
Makes plants beneath ,always to be hungry...
(long & difficult study and research about it ..)

And of course ,background of my led light promotion pics ,is always a kitchen !

...

Bon Appetit!

 

[Eraserhead]

If you think telling you to take notes and to consider white LEDs "calling you out", I can't wait to see your reaction when I actually do call you out.

We have 1 new model coming out for 2013 (so far), it would have been out 2 months earlier, but I got really sick with the flu and could not meet the deadline I set for myself.

The light is a couple watts short of 170w, and covers 5-6 sq ft, if a bigger footprint is needed, just use more lamps, simple as that.

Honestly, I have no interest in putting up large amounts of lights just to prove what most everyone already knows. You are just not worthy of it to me.

I'll put up a 170w against double wattage of your lights, 340w you have? Take it or leave it.

No desire to argue, keep in mind you called us out for no reason so time to put up.

As an LED seller you know that the big lights are what people want. I would also go as far as to say this is what they would want to see tested. I put out the challenge for the biggest light you have assuming it is a stated 4 x 4 footprint and replaces a 1,000w HID. What is you largest light in the new lineup?

Our biggest against your biggest. No arguing.

You do not share your spectrum, because you do not know it (prove me wrong?). You can't or won't even provide simple datasheets (because you do not have them, prove me wrong). Then you make cracks at me for showing an Excel spread sheet showing where the spectrum is. It's a hell of a lot more than you showed anyone.

Telling someone what your spectrum kinda looks like, I do not what to say to that absurdity really.

You are using age old LED sales jargon and double talk to sell, and it's not working as good as it once did, because customers has been burnt plenty of times buying a supposed great LED, customers want to see datasheets, they want specs, they want to know what they are giving their hard earned money for. So making cracks at me for showing a spread sheet is just asinine.

As far as me using a spectroradiometer to tear the veil off of your nonsense and huge lack of transparency, umm, no, not trying to get sued. But expect someone who is not an A51 employee to do just that, guaranteed.

So, wouldn't it be a good idea to just show your customers what they want to see before someone else does?

I am not sure what light of ours he is talking about. We have a 340w and a 450w watt light, the BD360-U and 450-U respectively. I would guess he is referring to the BD360-U at 340 watts but that wouldn't really be fair.

We don't share our spectrum since we have spent over 5 years working on it. Eraserhead will undoubtedly post it when he gets his meter. A rough spectrum is no problem. Just look at any PAR chart and add in a bit of far red and blue and you are more than roughly there

I just think you have something to hide. If you really had a spectroradiometer and legit "Epistar" LEDs, you'd show people you were telling the truth. But you instead use a bunch of fancy words at an attempt to woo your customers into buying from you.

I don't consider selling a product to patients with cancer and other "terminal illnesses" funny. Eraserhead called us out and we stand behind our lights. It is not rocket science to make a good spectrum. The research is out there is just takes time to find it all and experiment. We just don't believe in giving all of our hard earned knowledge out.

What we DO believe in is standing behind our lights. Let's just do a head to head and let the results speak for themselves.

So, who do you have in mind for this side by side BD? Let me guess.....

 

[PetFlora]

First: Know who your customer is.

I think the majority of growers are personal use (or certainly enough to make a hell of a living from).

'We' are looking for a stealth light system that will cover a 2 X 4 - 4 X 4 grow tent

A 150w fixture whose spectrum closely follows PAR should be more than sufficient for 2 X 4, so 2 identical fixtures for a 4 x 4... NOT one 300w+ fixture (my dick is big enough) which would work for a 4 x 4 SCROG, but so would 2 @ 150w. For non-scroggers, a couple of low watt rails, below the canopy for untrained plants. So why complicate your production/parts inventory...

I am doing a 2 plant grow using BrandX F1 cross; WHxWW using BG male pollen. Lights are/were 3000K + 5000K screw bulb leds (I have no equip/skills to make a fixture). 5000K was removed 2 days ago, so all 3000K. I have a ufo 90, R/B ~ 9:1 in reserve just in case they need 660, but I doubt it as 630 provides 90% PS RS

The following is 2 years old. WWs are better choices today, or a combination of both. I think the Merkaba shape using 6WW + one NW in the center will be a happy medium

CREE Neutral White (I call it 'Goldilocks', because it's almost 'just right'

) has a RSPD that still allows nearly ~25% of its total power in the blue range (and plants only really 'need' ~8-10%), and more that 1/3 of which (i.e. the area under the curve) is over ~580nm or so (which has a Photosynthetic RS of over 90%!)

I know it's hard to build what people need instead of what they want (due to programming that monochromatic lights are essential to simulate the PAR peaks, while completely overlooking the importance of the 'lessor' spectrums , SO, add ~ 10% 660 on a separate circuit. The NWs could be 3w on a dimmer, also just in case.

This seems like a simple fixture to me that will satisfy 90%+ of what we need to grow some awesome meds.

 

[stardustsailor]

Yup..I totally agree on that ...

Most of growers are "deserting the HID camp " ,
due to energy waste(=>high temps ) & cost of running such a system
(really efficient over 400 electrical Watts of Bulb ) .

So why the heck jump from a 400 Watt HPS bulb ( ~ 480 Watt with ballast ),
into a same wattage led system ?
Why ?
For what reason ?
Just for lower temps ?
Pay $$$$ for lower temps ?
Could not just get a cheap A/C ?


Anyway ...

An efficient led grow light ,designed to cover an (average )area of 4x4 ( ~1.2 x 1.2 m ) ,
needs to be no more than 150-200 Watt..
And preferably not being a single panel ..
( multiple panel systems are by FAR the most expensive -Watt/$ wise -
....and by far the most efficient ....) ...

As a grower (or a led grow panel possible buyer -costumer ) ,
I simply ignore led fixtures over ~200 Watts ....
Energy consuming -badly designed -not efficient -ect ...


Speakin of which ....

I trust ,that by now ,a renown team has proven ,indeed,
that even -with really cheap and low quality parts and materials (leds,drivers,ect ) ,
even -at really low powers ,
-WITH MOSTLY WHITE LEDS OF 1 WATT (=> leds driven at 320 mA )AND 120° EMISSION ANGLE ......
with a -multiple panel system ,one can grow really fine plants ...
With yields close to 1.6 gpw ..( I really trust that those, were real figures and not lies ...)

Now imagine ,a high-end ,multiple panel system ,of really high -top quality parts ,specially designed spectrum
(indeed no rocket science needed here ...2-3 types of the right leds,only )....
Yes, it can not be cheap Watt/ $ -wise ....
No way ....

By all means ,it is designed to be efficient in many other ways ...
And that has a certain cost...

 

[stardustsailor]

Moreover ...
I'm not here to "teach " ....
I'm just sharing infos ...

I.e..... Myshelf have been taught (...here ,at this forum .Thank you Guod,Eraserhead,Petflora,Psuagro,Ganja2 and many others of the RIU members ..) ,
many -many things , that either I was not aware of, or knew very little about ....

I.e like cooling of leds ...

THE MOST IMPORTANT PART when coming to designing a led light ...
Choice of heatsink size -material-shape ...
Choice of fan Wattage ,air-flow,size ,position,ect ....
Designing of air-flow ,air tunnel / funneling /fan air inlet size / exaust size ,pressure ,ect
Overall thermal resistance ...
Thermal expansion of different materials and solder joint stability ...
Service life -efficiency vs temps ...
And many more ....

Most of which ,totally " neglected " from most of ,so called ,"professional-commercial led grow panel designers / companies ...

And still,personally I'm learning a lot ,
thanx to my beloved .. "professor " Guod ,and his (so rare -I've to say....),
"Led Cooling & Thermal management lessons " ,which I try my best ,never to miss ...

Edit :
Truth is this ....

Lamborghini was a mere tractor designer ..
But he discovered a fault in Enzo's gear box ...
For those who do not know the whole story * ....
What I mean is ...
Nobody 's perfect ...
It takes many minds,experiments,failures,tries,research ,ect in order to design the ,so bewished ,
"ultimate led grow light " ......

But ...

Things are constantly evolving ...
Evolution is a natural ...procedure ..generally ...

...
In fact -getting into philosophy ,now-"everything" is probably " happening ",because of "evolution" ...
And I mean ..." Everything " ...

*****


.......Lamborghini's wealth allowed him to cultivate a childhood interest in cars, owning a number of luxury automobiles including Alfa Romeos, Lancias, Maseratis, and a Mercedes-Benz.[SUP][19][/SUP] He purchased his first Ferrari, a 250GT, in 1958, and went on to own several more. Lamborghini was fond of the Ferraris, but considered them too noisy and rough to be proper road cars, likening them to repurposed track cars.[SUP][19][/SUP] When Lamborghini discovered that the clutch on his Ferrari was broken, and actually was the same clutch that he used on his tractors, Lamborghini went to Ferrari and asked for a better replacement. Ferrari responded, saying that he was just a tractor maker, and could not know anything about sports cars.[SUP][19][/SUP][SUP][20][/SUP][SUP][21][/SUP] Lamborghini decided to pursue an automobile manufacturing venture with the goal of bringing to life his vision of a perfect grand tourer.[SUP][18]...


[/SUP]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamborghini


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Other industrial enterprises followed primarily making central heating and air-conditioning equipment. Then Lamborghini turned to cars. He ran a succession of high-performance cars, and seemingly felt that they all lacked refinement. However, legend has it that the idea came to him after a discussion with Enzo Ferrari, when Ferruccio complained about the noisy gearbox in his new Ferrari. It seems that Ferrari’s reply was simply "You stick to tractors and let me build sports cars.", and that was the point when he decided to build a better car…[/FONT]
http://www.pixcom.dk/Lamborghini/story.htm

 

[jaubry777]

We actually just bought a new spectroradiometer, we'll be putting up some really cool videos in the next couple of months showing it and our lights in action (and some of our competitors lights too ), plus an HPS and CMH for comparison.

The XPGs are okay at 1a, they can handle up to 1.5a, but they are more efficient when ran lower, 350mA brings the best efficiency out of them.

what is your website???

 

[mamakush]

Oh my goodness. Tension!

I, for one, would love to see a side by side grow off between these two companies. I've seen good things from both.

Just to be clear, Eraserhead, the new Area51 lights will meet the photosynthetic requirements of the plants below them using white LEDs with different temps? I'm pretty solid on my understanding of photosynthesis and plant physiology, but not so good with the techy side of this stuff.

 

[hsfkush]

Well ,sorry to interupt ...
But personally ,as a rocket scientist ...
Phycocyanin and all the rest pigments starting with "phyco -" .....

......"Phyco" comes from greek "(τ&#959 φύκος " and simply means "seaweed " ....
So ...

Since seaweeds have plenty of differences with land-grown higher plants
-and one major difference ,is the PS pigments ,used by each division of
'viridi plantae '(green plants )- it's kinda of misleading ,
to refer to ' maritime plantae ' s pigments found only in seaweeds ,
as they do not exist (even in traces ) in most of higher plants ...

I.e you won't find any Phycocyanin ([το] Φύκος + κυανός = 'Seaweed' + 'blue' ),
to any kind of purple/violet/blue/ect cannabis plant ...
Even if it was grown near the sea or was irrigated with sea-water ..
Even if fish-emulsion or sea-weed (kelp ) was used for fertilising ,
still you won't get any phycocyanin content in mj ....

Now ,if someone manage to cultivate mj under seawater or in hydro using only seawater ......
Dunno ..
Maybe after couple of gens ,things might change ...
Might have first "Cannabis Aquatica " plant ...
...
Just some "rocket science " drops ,there .....

Edit : Moreover .....

Certain bacteria including cyanobacteria, diatoms, dinoflagellates,
brown algae, red algae can also photosynthesize
and have various chlorophyll combinations including Chl c and d.
Sulfur purple bacteria, non-sulfur purple bacteria,
green bacteria, and heliobacteria can have various combinations of bacteriochlorophylls a - g....

Still ,none of these pigments is found-not even in trace amounts - in most of higher plants ...
So ....
W.G .A .F about Phycocyanins or Ch C or similar pigments ?
Who ?

Except if you're growing some rare red algae ,there ..
Then ,ok .. " I'll just pass " ...

But that's not rocket science... I'm expecting you to drop a NASA bomb on us with some high-tech science about some form of nuclear plasma which can cause gravity fluctuations which inevitably end up as black holes or something.

I am most disappointed.

 

[HiloReign]

But that's not rocket science... I'm expecting you to drop a NASA bomb on us with some high-tech science about some form of nuclear plasma which can cause gravity fluctuations which inevitably end up as black holes or something.

I am most disappointed.

I don't consider selling a product to patients with cancer and other "terminal illnesses" funny. Eraserhead called us out and we stand behind our lights. It is not rocket science to make a good spectrum. The research is out there is just takes time to find it all and experiment. We just don't believe in giving all of our hard earned knowledge out.

What we DO believe in is standing behind our lights. Let's just do a head to head and let the results speak for themselves.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[stardustsailor]

Oh..
It's simply a misunderstanding ,then ...
You're referrin' to real-life rocket things ,of which I dunno $hit about ...

..
While ,I'm referring to "deep-inside-within " brain rockets ...

Feel kinda sorry disapponting your majesty ....
Maybe I'll make up to it ,some other time ...

 

[hsfkush]

Oh..
It's simply a misunderstanding ,then ...
You're referrin' to real-life rocket things ,of which I dunno $hit about ...

..
While ,I'm referring to "deep-inside-within " brain rockets ...

Feel kinda sorry disapponting your majesty ....
Maybe I'll make up to it ,some other time ...

I was only joking buddy. Nice bit of sarcasm of a fine winters eve is nothing but fun. ^_^

However, you should be executed on the morrow, where I shall drink a fine glass of sancerre just before the short drop and the sudden stop.

 

[stardustsailor]

Simply a misunderstanding ...
;-P

 

[hsfkush]

Haha, indeed. =]

On a serious note, I am looking to change my light set up, I'm using CFL's at the moment but I'm just wondering, what's the lumen ratio for an LED compared to CFL. My 200w CFL produces 14000 Lumens apparently(probably not) but I'm looking to see if I can get more for less. Any help would be appreciated, also, price matters, I'm not going to pay $250 for a 200w LED system.

 

[Eraserhead]

We have a 6x6 tent we do our testing in, and tested all white in veg, both 4000k and 6000k, and white + red + deep red, and also white + red and no deep red in flowering. Plants just seem to love life under a dominant white color, and the yields we (and those that use our lights) are getting, are getting better and better the more white we add.

We're looking to do some all white seedling to harvest test grows, we'll be doing the tests once our test grower is all set up again. We'll probably have some 3rd party people do a couple runs as well, like a 2nd opinion.

We try to maintain 70-77° during lights on. Others that have used our lamps let temps get in the low 80's with no ill effects. I prefer hydro over soil, it's just easier to maintain res temps when the room temps are low 70's.

I think a lot of peoples issue with white, they think plants do not absorb green and yellow and white has a lot of that. But if the argument that plants are green therefor reflect green, then what happens to plants that change to purple, or blue? Do they stop absorbing purple when that happens? Plants love green and yellow color, they just do not need huge green and yellow spikes like you would use with the reds.

Oh my goodness. Tension!

I, for one, would love to see a side by side grow off between these two companies. I've seen good things from both.

Just to be clear, Eraserhead, the new Area51 lights will meet the photosynthetic requirements of the plants below them using white LEDs with different temps? I'm pretty solid on my understanding of photosynthesis and plant physiology, but not so good with the techy side of this stuff.

 

[Chronikool]

Im pretty stoked that a reputable LED manufacturer has taken the primary white route with their panels. Without being preachy, (as that getz old real quick) i have only used white LED's on my grows, with (i think) great success.

They are only getting better aswell!

We are kind of in an affair that my girlfriend doesnt know about....Shhhhh!

 

[HiloReign]

Haha, indeed. =]

On a serious note, I am looking to change my light set up, I'm using CFL's at the moment but I'm just wondering, what's the lumen ratio for an LED compared to CFL. My 200w CFL produces 14000 Lumens apparently(probably not) but I'm looking to see if I can get more for less. Any help would be appreciated, also, price matters, I'm not going to pay $250 for a 200w LED system.

If you want quality, I suggest you find a way to raise your budget... Also, lumens are the measurement of visible light to a human.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_%28unit%29

"The lumen (symbol: lm) is the SI derived unit of luminous flux, a measure of the total "amount" of visible light emitted by a source. Luminous flux differs from power (radiant flux) in that luminous flux measurements reflect the varying sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths of light, while radiant flux measurements indicate the total power of all light emitted, independent of the eye's ability to perceive it"

 

[mamakush]

Carotenoids ftw!

 

[stardustsailor]

Carotenoids .....

Mostly absorb light in blue region ...

Aid PS,m by doing so ...
"Helping main PS pigments capture rare blue photons ...." ...
And if blue photons get way much in numbers (power increase ),carotenoids then protect from photodamage of Chlorophylls ....
Acting also as strong anti-oxidants ,against free-radical oxygen roots...

-Led lighting Ingredients ..
-Controlled Environment's constant (at power/angle/spectrum/duration) lighting ...
-Aiming for great flower yields .....(And not for light stressed nutrient rich green/purple leafies ...

Do we add the light that carotenoids absorb in good quantities or not ?

That's the question (for today ,at least ... ) ....