taxes what are you doing

ClaytonBigsby

Well-Known Member
Here is a quick and fair assessment of taxation in the US, from the Wall Street Journal (Sept. 27, 2011)

[h=3]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204422404576594471646927038.html[/h][h=1]A Short History of the Income Tax[/h][h=2]One original sin was the separation of the corporate and personal tax, giving lawyers, accountants and the wealthy a chance to game the system.


By JOHN STEELE GORDON[/h]Whether the "millionaires and billionaires" are actually paying their fair share of taxes is a matter for the electorate to decide. After all, fairness is hardly an objective standard.
Before the modern era, however, the federal tax system was manifestly unfair by any reasonable standard, grossly biased in favor of the well off. Ironically, attempting to fix that unfairness is what has brought us to the present moment, with a federal tax system that is grotesquely complex, often arbitrary, and corrupted by mutual back-scratching between members of Congress and influential lobbyists.








After the Civil War, nearly all the wartime taxes—including the nation's first income tax—were repealed and the federal government relied mostly on the tariff for revenues. It provided the government with more than ample peacetime income. In 1882, the government had revenues of $403 million, but expenses were only $257 million, a staggering budget surplus of nearly 36%. The reason the tariff was so high was, ostensibly, to protect America's burgeoning industries from foreign competition.
Of course, the owners of those burgeoning industries—i.e., the rich—were greatly helped by the protection, which enabled them to charge higher prices and make greater profits than if they had had to face unbridled foreign competition.
But the tariff is a consumption tax, which is simply added to the price of the goods sold. And consumption taxes are inherently regressive. The poor, by definition, must spend all of their income on necessities and thus pay consumption taxes on all of their income. The rich, while living in luxury, bank most of their income and largely escape these types of taxes.

As the vast surpluses piled up in the Treasury, the political pressure to institute an income tax on the rich grew steadily. In 1894, with Democrat Grover Cleveland in the White House and Democratic majorities in both houses of Congress, a federal income tax became law. The new tax, however, was very different from the Civil War income tax, which had exempted only the poor. The new one hit only the rich, imposing a 2% tax on incomes above $4,000. Less than 1% of American households in 1894 met that income threshold.
Needless to say, the tax was attacked in court, in a 1895 test case called Pollack v. Farmers' Loan & Trust. The case turned on the definition of a "direct tax," which the Constitution requires to be apportioned equally among the states according to population, something obviously impossible with an income tax.

The court split 4-4 as to whether the new income tax was constitutional. One member of the court, Justice Howell Jackson of Tennessee, was absent because of illness (and died less than three months later). But with the case drawing enormous public attention, the court agreed to reargue it and Justice Jackson rose from his deathbed to hear it.

Jackson was known to favor the income tax and it was assumed that it would now be upheld 5-4. But one of the other justices switched his vote (the opinion is unsigned and we don't know by whom or why) and it was voted down 5-4.
[h=3][/h]

The income tax was dead. But the pressure to tax the incomes of the largely untaxed rich only increased, especially as the Progressive wing of the Republican Party grew in strength under Theodore Roosevelt. By the time of the administration of President William Howard Taft (1909-13) the pressure was becoming overwhelming. One representative suggested simply repassing the 1894 tax bill and daring the Supreme Court to overturn it a second time.
That idea horrified Taft, who revered the court. He feared that it would weaken its position as the final arbiter of the Constitution. He came up with a brilliant, very lawyerly, alternative: He proposed a constitutional amendment to legalize a personal income tax, while meanwhile imposing a tax on corporate profits. In the early 20th century such a tax was, in effect, a tax on the rich. As the corporate income tax is technically an excise tax, there was no constitutional problem. Taft's solution was implemented and in 1913 the 16th Amendment was declared ratified, just as Taft was leaving office.

The new president, Woodrow Wilson, and the strongly Democratic Congress promptly passed a personal income tax. It kicked in at 1% on incomes above $3,000 (a comfortable upper middle-class income at the time) and reached 7% on incomes over $500,000. But there were many deductions, bringing the effective tax rates down sharply from the marginal ones—a feature of the tax system ever since.

Unfortunately the corporate income tax, originally intended as only a stopgap measure, was left in place unchanged. As a result, for the last 98 years we have had two completely separate and uncoordinated income taxes. It's a bit as if corporations were owned by Martians, otherwise untaxed, instead of by their very earthly—and taxed—stockholders.

This has had two deeply pernicious effects. One, it allowed the very rich to avoid taxes by playing the two systems against each other. When the top personal income tax rate soared to 75% in World War I, for instance, thousands of the rich simply incorporated their holdings in order to pay the much lower corporate tax rate.

There has since been a sort of evolutionary arms race, as tax lawyers and accountants came up with ever new ways to game the system, and Congress endlessly added to the tax code to forbid or regulate the new strategies. The income tax act of 1913 had been 14 pages long. The Revenue Act of 1942 was 208 pages long, 78% of them devoted to closing or defining loopholes. It has only gotten worse.

The other pernicious consequence of the separate corporate and personal income taxes has been a field day for demagogues and the misguided to claim that the rich are not paying their "fair share." Warren Buffett recently claimed that he had paid only $6.9 million in taxes last year. But Berkshire Hathaway, of which Mr. Buffett owns 30%, paid $5.6 billion in corporate income taxes. Were Berkshire Hathaway a Subchapter S corporation and exempt from corporate income taxes, Mr. Buffett's personal tax bill would have been 231 times higher, at $1.6 billion.

Just as in the late 19th century, the tax code is now hopelessly arbitrary and unfair. It requires a complete overhaul.
Mr. Gordon is the author of "An Empire of Wealth: The Epic History of American Economic Power" (HarperCollins, 2004).
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Would like to smoke one with you and hear that out. I'm struggling to believe that Americans would be better off paying 70% of their income in taxes to a gov't that isn't doing a goddamn thing about ...
it's a progressive tax, only top incomes got hit at 70%, the rest of us at much lower rates.

the recent return from 35% back to 39.6% is reducing the deficit as we speak.
 

ClaytonBigsby

Well-Known Member
"Warren Buffett recently claimed that he had paid only $6.9 million in taxes last year. But Berkshire Hathaway, of which Mr. Buffett owns 30%, paid $5.6 billion in corporate income taxes. Were Berkshire Hathaway a Subchapter S corporation and exempt from corporate income taxes, Mr. Buffett's personal tax bill would have been 231 times higher, at $1.6 billion." And he's one of the rare wealthy that actually pays any taxes.

I know what a progressive tax is, and that it is a sham. Do you not remember all the hoopla on Romney's taxes? I think he paid less than 15%. His assests are all hidden and protected in off shore tax shelters. So, the idea that the rich are paying 39.5% or 94% is a joke. The only people that are really paying taxes are the ones who can afford it least. The middle class and poor, are paying close to 50% by the time you add up Federal, state, social security, medicare, etc, then include sales tax, gas tax, phone line tax, water service tax, sewer service tax, cable tax, electricity tax, natural gas tax, sin tax, food tax, and on and on....


Let's be real here.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
"Warren Buffett recently claimed that he had paid only $6.9 million in taxes last year. But Berkshire Hathaway, of which Mr. Buffett owns 30%, paid $5.6 billion in corporate income taxes. Were Berkshire Hathaway a Subchapter S corporation and exempt from corporate income taxes, Mr. Buffett's personal tax bill would have been 231 times higher, at $1.6 billion." And he's one of the rare wealthy that actually pays any taxes.

I know what a progressive tax is, and that it is a sham. Do you not remember all the hoopla on Romney's taxes? I think he paid less than 15%. His assests are all hidden and protected in off shore tax shelters. So, the idea that the rich are paying 39.5% or 94% is a joke. The only people that are really paying taxes are the ones who can afford it least. The middle class and poor, are paying close to 50% by the time you add up Federal, state, social security, medicare, etc, then include sales tax, gas tax, phone line tax, water service tax, sewer service tax, cable tax, electricity tax, natural gas tax, sin tax, food tax, and on and on....


Let's be real here.
so you're asking for capital gains to be taxed harder and regressive taxes (like sales tax) to be scaled back?

simple. don't vote for the GOP. thy want to introduce more regressive tax schemes. the democrats are more than happy to vote for more progressive tax schemes.

it really is that simple in the case of taxes. but the GOP has convinced every tom, dick and harry that they are just a couple tax breaks for millionaires away from striking it big themselves.

i mean, those guys still defend trickle down 30 years later. it's retarded.
 

ClaytonBigsby

Well-Known Member
"Trickle down", from the man famous for "read my lips" is as bad as the lottery. Only fools.... On that we can agree.

There is a major problem when corporations like GE can have $14.2 billion in profits (2010 alone) and not only NOT pay a cent in taxes, but actually get $3.2 billion in tax benefits (for the second year in a row)!! Apple is under scrutiny for similar offshore holdings. It is out of control.


We need to do away with loopholes, and complicated codes, hidden by and for the corporations paying legislators to write them. A flat tax sounds like a good idea. If US companies outsource their production, and or put their money in foreign countries, there should be a penalty to make it worth their while to invest in this country. Bring more jobs back home. More jobs and income means more spending, more tax revenue, more more more, for the actual 99%. Corporations are never happy enough with a profit, it's all a game to "win", even though the people lose.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/general-electric-paid-federal-taxes-2010/story?id=13224558

General Electric Paid No Federal Taxes in 2010

By JAKE TAPPER THE WHITE HOUSE, March 25, 2011


The top tax bracket for U.S. corporations stands at 35 percent, one of the highest rates in the world. So how is it possible that a giant of American business, General Electric, paid nothing in federal taxes last year, even as it made billions in profit?
And should the CEO of GE, Jeffrey Immelt , be advising the president on business?

For two years, President Obama has been talking about the need for corporate tax reform, declaring that the system is too complicated and that companies pay too much.
"Simplify, eliminate loopholes, treat everybody fairly," Obama said in February.

For those unaccustomed to the loopholes and shelters of the corporate tax code, GE's success at avoiding taxes is nothing short of extraordinary. The company, led by Immelt, earned $14.2 billion in profits in 2010, but it paid not a penny in taxes because the bulk of those profits, some $9 billion, were offshore. In fact, GE got a $3.2 billion tax benefit.

"Two things are disconcerting. One is, there's disproportionate amount of profits being reported offshore. And then, even for the profits that are reported onshore, they're paying less than 35 percent," said Martin Sullivan, a contributing editor for Tax Analysts.
2010 was the second year in a row that GE recorded billions in profits and paid no taxes.

During that same period, Immelt has been a close advisor to the president on the business community, a relationship that rubs some the wrong way. Immelt serves as the chairman of Obama's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness .
In a statement, General Electric said that it "pays what it owes under the law and is scrupulous about its compliance with tax obligations in all jurisdictions." The company claims that its zero-dollar tax bill is largely a result of losses at its financial arm, GE Capital, due to the Wall Street meltdown.

Today, White House spokesman Jay Carney said that the president is "bothered" by the idea that a U.S. company could pay no taxes, but he wouldn't talk about GE specifically. Carney was also quick to say that Immelt's council advises the president on job growth and not on tax policy.

"It is part of the problem of the corporate tax structure that companies hire, you know, armies of tax lawyers to understand how it works and to take advantage of the various loopholes that exist, that are legal in order to reduce their tax burden," Carney said.
When President Obama announced his decision to appoint Immelt to the unpaid advisory role on job creation in January, some critics wondered whether the move was appropriate. Under his leadership, GE laid off 21,000 American workers and closed 20 factories between 2007 and 2009. More than half of GE's workforce is now outside the United States.
 

ClaytonBigsby

Well-Known Member
Perhaps we should define flat tax. I am tallking more for corporate taxes. I am certainly for reduced taxes for reduced earners. It is a complicated matter, as minimum wage is slavery and those folks should not be paying much in taxes. The flip side of that is that the poor are frequently the people smoking and eating shit, causing bad health that they cannot pay to treat. We have a system designed to reward ignorant trash for breeding. Many have tons of kids just to get more money. Half the people in this country are on some type of welfare. Welfare kids tend to have more welfare kids. The country is fucked as it is set up presently. The only winners are the ultra wealthy. You cannot argue that. What do you propose to try to balance things out?
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Perhaps we should define flat tax. I am tallking more for corporate taxes. I am certainly for reduced taxes for reduced earners. It is a complicated matter, as minimum wage is slavery and those folks should not be paying much in taxes. The flip side of that is that the poor are frequently the people smoking and eating shit, causing bad health that they cannot pay to treat. We have a system designed to reward ignorant trash for breeding. Many have tons of kids just to get more money. Half the people in this country are on some type of welfare. Welfare kids tend to have more welfare kids. The country is fucked as it is set up presently. The only winners are the ultra wealthy. You cannot argue that. What do you propose to try to balance things out?
@ the first bolded: that's a progressive tax.

@ the second bolded: that's demonstrably false.
 

ClaytonBigsby

Well-Known Member
@ the first bolded: that's a progressive tax.

@ the second bolded: that's demonstrably false.
I think I have demonstrated that progressive tax is a sham, because the wealthy do not really pay their fair share.

"demonstrably false"? Really? Where have you been?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/almost-half-of-all-americans-households-government-benefits_n_996990.html

Nearly Half Of Americans Live In Households With Government Aid

By Sara Murray of the Wall Street Journal
Families were more dependent on government programs than ever last year.
Nearly half, 48.5 percent, of the population lived in a household that received some type of government benefit in the first quarter of 2010, according to Census data. Those numbers have risen since the middle of the recession when 44.4 percent lived households receiving benefits in the third quarter of 2008 .
The share of people relying on government benefits has reached a historic high, in large part from the deep recession and meager recovery, but also because of the expansion of government programs over the years. (See a timeline on the history of government benefits programs here.)
Means-tested programs, designed to help the needy, accounted for the largest share of recipients last year. Some 34.2 percent of Americans lived in a household that received benefits such as food stamps, subsidized housing, cash welfare or Medicaid (the federal-state health care program for the poor).


http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2012/05/26/number-of-the-week-half-of-u-s-lives-in-household-getting-benefits/

49.1%: Percent of the population that lives in a household where at least one member received some type of government benefit in the first quarter of 2011.







http://factcheck.org/2012/08/santorums-distorted-dependency-claims/

Rick Santorum blames President Barack Obama for “a nightmare of dependency with almost half of America receiving some sort of government assistance.” But the same could have been said of George W. Bush. In fact, the Census Bureau reported that in the third quarter of 2008, under Bush, “nearly half of U.S. residents live in households receiving government benefits.”
Back then, Census reported that 44.4 percent of Americans received some sort of government benefits. That has risen to 49 percent under Obama as of the most recent figures available, and much of that modest increase is due to the aging Baby Boom generation reaching retirement age.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
I think I have demonstrated that progressive tax is a sham, because the wealthy do not really pay their fair share.

"demonstrably false"? Really? Where have you been?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/05/almost-half-of-all-americans-households-government-benefits_n_996990.html

Nearly Half Of Americans Live In Households With Government Aid

By Sara Murray of the Wall Street Journal
Families were more dependent on government programs than ever last year.
Nearly half, 48.5 percent, of the population lived in a household that received some type of government benefit in the first quarter of 2010, according to Census data. Those numbers have risen since the middle of the recession when 44.4 percent lived households receiving benefits in the third quarter of 2008 .
The share of people relying on government benefits has reached a historic high, in large part from the deep recession and meager recovery, but also because of the expansion of government programs over the years. (See a timeline on the history of government benefits programs here.)
Means-tested programs, designed to help the needy, accounted for the largest share of recipients last year. Some 34.2 percent of Americans lived in a household that received benefits such as food stamps, subsidized housing, cash welfare or Medicaid (the federal-state health care program for the poor).
government benefits are not the same as welfare.

social security is not a type of welfare. more than half the people on food stamps actually work.

calling it welfare is disingenuous at best.
 
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