newbies increase your yields with these tips

Status
Not open for further replies.
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
applepoop1984 said:
chuck estevez said:
did that nice little write up teach you that salts are not up taken by plants? and what organic fertilizers contain mineral salts ? that article is hogwash it states only some inorganic ferts contain mineral salts. oh btw heres a list of all mineral salts and the nutrients they supply... can you find bat guano in there? do you know why you cant? because ammonium oxylate is NOT A MINERAL SALT!!!!

ftp://ftp.fao.org/codex/Circular_letters/CXcl2004/cl04_21e.pdf


now find worm castings... any mineral salts in there? what about molasses? rhubarb?

nice try mr sheen but you have your dicky doo wrapped up like a snickers and your squatting on an inverted barstool
Click to expand...
remember this??? that paper is from a university
Click to expand...
 
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
applepoop1984 said:
acetic acid(vinegar) mixed with water to ph 5.0 is effective at removing cadmium ions.This method injects an oxidant such as hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) into the contaminated aquifer. The contaminant is oxidized, primarily producing carbon dioxide and water. running electric current through the soil will immoblize cadmium ions. plain water with a low ppm will remove cadmium ions. flushing is necessary. you have all the proof. now youv said you were done with this thread over 5 times already. why do you keep comign back. go away you have accomplished nothing but make people question how you have so much rep in less than a year
Click to expand...
this makes No sense, First it is damn near impossible to have a build up in 4 months, let alone, the plant to uptake enough to become toxic, then you can magically wash it out of the plant with some water?
I keep coming back, cause your like a train wreck, i just have to watch.
 
brotherjericho

brotherjericho

Well-Known Member
What some people might fail to understand is that the reason he wants to use 5.0 pH water is that most heavy metals are not available for uptake in the soil until you get low pH. That's right, if you do have these supposed build-ups, your plant will not absorb them because they will not be available in properly pHed soil. So the idea is to put the cadmium into solution and leech it from the soil.
 
brotherjericho

brotherjericho

Well-Known Member
chuck estevez said:
Nice find, i didn't see anywhere in that paper that says you can remove any metals from the plant by flushing it with vinegar water. Did you?
Click to expand...
Not in that paper, but the idea behind flushing with 5.0 pH water is to pull the heavy metals out of the soil and into the flushing solution. This is where having lime is important so as to be sure the soil gets buffered. But how much do you use to get all the cadmium out? And don't you risk lowering the soil's pH to a point where now the cadmium is freely available for root uptake?

Actually, then, the best solution for any supposed heavy metal build-up is to not allow your soils pH to ever get low enough where they will be available. A properly maintained soil will prevent heavy metals from getting into the plants.
 
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
brotherjericho said:
Not in that paper, but the idea behind flushing with 5.0 pH water is to pull the heavy metals out of the soil and into the flushing solution. This is where having lime is important so as to be sure the soil gets buffered. But how much do you use to get all the cadmium out? And don't you risk lowering the soil's pH to a point where now the cadmium is freely available for root uptake?

Actually, then, the best solution for any supposed heavy metal build-up is to not allow your soils pH to ever get low enough where they will be available. A properly maintained soil will prevent heavy metals from getting into the plants.
Click to expand...
removing it from the soil with a low ph water or solution would be leeching. And in farming,leeching is probably needed. But it will not remove any from the plant and as you stated,would probably hurt the plant.
so the whole idea of a weed plant being full of heavy metals and a flush will remove these metals is all really just bullshit. HMMMMMM!!!
 
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
brotherjericho said:
What some people might fail to understand is that the reason he wants to use 5.0 pH water is that most heavy metals are not available for uptake in the soil until you get low pH. That's right, if you do have these supposed build-ups, your plant will not absorb them because they will not be available in properly pHed soil. So the idea is to put the cadmium into solution and leech it from the soil.
Click to expand...
actually the exact opposite is true. and heres the proof:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02371149
"Cadmium absorption and distribution in four plant species was studied using a system of flowing solution culture with cadmium added at 0.018 mmolm−3 and solution pH controlled at 5.0, 5.5, 6.0 or 7.0. With increasing pH from 5.0 to 7.0 the total cadmium content increaed by factors of 4 in cocksfoot, 8 in perennial ryegrass and 10 in lettuce and watercress. With the two grasses less than 15% of the total cadmium was transported to the shoots irrespective of solution pH. In contrast, 45 to 75% was transported to the shoots of lettuce and watercress, so increasing the risk of cadmium causing harm by entering the food chain through the edible part of the plant. The concentration in the dry matter of lettuce shoots increased from 1.9 to 26.2μg Cd g−1 with increasing pH from 5.0 to 7.0 whilst in watercress shoots the concentration increased from 14.3 to 118.5 μg g−1. It was concluded that the absorption of cadmium by the four species was markedly suppressed by acidification due to increased competition with hydrogen ion. "

in response to chucky, the whole idea is to make the cadmium bioavailability lower so that when you flush it will leach away. the study that brother posted was about how total metals are measured insoil . when they run low ph water through the soil it removes a percentage of it( gee i thought you said that wasnt possible?) and they measure that run off as a % of the total metal content.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18533538
[FONT=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]"This paper studied the effects of applying citric acid, oxalic acid and acetic acid on the removal of heavy metals Cd, Pb, Cu and Zn from sewage sludge, and the form transformation and bioavailability of these heavy metals before and after the application of tested organic acids. The results showed that the removal rates of tested heavy metals except Cu increased with increasing acid concentration and action time. Among the tested organic acids, citric acid was more effective in removing heavy metals from sewage sludge, with the removal rate of 52.0% for Pb and 74.2% for Zn after a 7-hour action, and 76.0% for Pb and 92.5% for Zn after 24-hour action. The removal rates of the heavy metals by oxalic acid and acetic acid were relatively low. The Pb and Zn removed by citric acid were mainly in stable form, resulting in a relative increase of their unstable and exchangeable forms in the sludge. Though the removal rate of Cu and Cd was lower, their exchangeable forms still had somewhat increase after the action of tested organic acids."[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif]i hope you can look at your own train wreck now. hint, its in your mirror[/FONT]
 
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
in conclusion, flush your soil throughout your grow if using cadmium laden fertilizers. anyone who tells you otherwise is a fool and more concerned with being right on a forum than actually helping new growers.
 
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
soil microbes can also help remove heavy metals such as cadmium.

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-26531-7_20
"Accumulation of toxic metals in agricultural soils is an issue of health concern because toxic metals may be transferred to plants and food. The reclamation of metal-polluted soils, e.g. by using chemical extractants, is usually difficult and incomplete. An alternative option is to try to decrease the transfer of heavy metals from soil to plant by inoculating the soil with microorganisms selected for their ability to biosorb heavy metals. Here, we isolated one fungus, two actinomycetes and two bacteria from soil contaminated by cadmium. These microbes were found to grow in the presence of high cadmium level in laboratory conditions. The fungus and the actinomycetes have the best growth capacity in the soil extract in presence of 10 mg Cd l−1 which is representative of their ability to soil colonization. The bacillus, despite a low resistance to high cadmium concentrations, is very efficient in presence of 1 mg Cd l−1. The percentage of cadmium biosorbed in the medium (up to 50% in presence of 10 mg Cd l−1) and the specific biosorption (80 to 140 mg Cd g−1 of biomass) led to determine that one actinomycete and the bacillus are the most efficient microorganisms that will be used to later bioremediation experiments in soil microcosms.

now the question is how to boost actinomycete?

"Good aeration is necessary for the proper activity of the microorganisms involved in the decomposition of organic matter. Under anaerobic conditions fungi and actinomycetes are almost suppressed and only a few bacteria (Clostridium) take part in anaerobic decomposition. The rate of decomposition is markedly retarded. It was found that under aerobic conditions 65 percent of the total organic matter decomposes during six months, while under anaerobic conditions only 47 percent organic matter can be decomposed during the same period. Anaerobic decomposition of organic matter results into the production of large quantity of organic acids and evolution of gases like methane (CH 4) hydrogen (H2) and carbon dioxide (CO2)."

adding h2o2 to soil will help boost the colonies of actinomycetes as well as leach undesireabes from the soil:

http://www.waset.org/journals/ijcbe/v2/v2-3-27.pdf

and now the chart of all charts:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/226794018_Removal_of_chromium(VI)_and_cadmium(II)_from_aqueous_solution_by_a_bacterial_biofilm_supported_on_granular_activated_carbon/file/9fcfd509c1b1d5d905.pdf

Untitled.jpg

like iv been saying, water with h2o2 .
 
chuck estevez

chuck estevez

Well-Known Member
applepoop1984

applepoop1984

Well-Known Member
chuck estevez said:
But your the one that said it was hogwash, ANd dyna gro isn't on your list, SO, guess i'm not smoking heavy metal,just rockin out to it.
Click to expand...
[video=youtube;D5P7gLs4wRg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5P7gLs4wRg[/video]

they didnt sample it. all you should know about your fertilizer is that you dont know the level of cadmium and other contaminants it contains. but thats just common sense, you have alot of that right? i do know whats in your fertilizer:
www.fertilizer.org/ifacontent/download/5901/93940‎

"phosphoric acids can have cadmium
contents ranging from 1 ppm to over 130 ppm"

"Monoammonium phosphate and APS products may
contain proportionally more cadmium because sludge, clarification solids, and other WPA
byproduct streams that may be used for production of these fertilizers may contain high
impurity levels."
 
brotherjericho

brotherjericho

Well-Known Member
applepoop1984 said:
actually the exact opposite is true. and heres the proof:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02371149
"Cadmium absorption and distribution in four plant species was studied using a system of flowing solution culture with cadmium added at 0.018 mmolm−3 and solution pH controlled at 5.0, 5.5, 6.0 or 7.0. With increasing pH from 5.0 to 7.0 the total cadmium content increaed by factors of 4 in cocksfoot, 8 in perennial ryegrass and 10 in lettuce and watercress. With the two grasses less than 15% of the total cadmium was transported to the shoots irrespective of solution pH. In contrast, 45 to 75% was transported to the shoots of lettuce and watercress, so increasing the risk of cadmium causing harm by entering the food chain through the edible part of the plant. The concentration in the dry matter of lettuce shoots increased from 1.9 to 26.2μg Cd g−1 with increasing pH from 5.0 to 7.0 whilst in watercress shoots the concentration increased from 14.3 to 118.5 μg g−1. It was concluded that the absorption of cadmium by the four species was markedly suppressed by acidification due to increased competition with hydrogen ion. "

in response to chucky, the whole idea is to make the cadmium bioavailability lower so that when you flush it will leach away. the study that brother posted was about how total metals are measured insoil . when they run low ph water through the soil it removes a percentage of it( gee i thought you said that wasnt possible?) and they measure that run off as a % of the total metal content.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18533538
"This paper studied the effects of applying citric acid, oxalic acid and acetic acid on the removal of heavy metals Cd, Pb, Cu and Zn from sewage sludge, and the form transformation and bioavailability of these heavy metals before and after the application of tested organic acids. The results showed that the removal rates of tested heavy metals except Cu increased with increasing acid concentration and action time. Among the tested organic acids, citric acid was more effective in removing heavy metals from sewage sludge, with the removal rate of 52.0% for Pb and 74.2% for Zn after a 7-hour action, and 76.0% for Pb and 92.5% for Zn after 24-hour action. The removal rates of the heavy metals by oxalic acid and acetic acid were relatively low. The Pb and Zn removed by citric acid were mainly in stable form, resulting in a relative increase of their unstable and exchangeable forms in the sludge. Though the removal rate of Cu and Cd was lower, their exchangeable forms still had somewhat increase after the action of tested organic acids."

i hope you can look at your own train wreck now. hint, its in your mirror
Click to expand...
Neither of these apply to soil, the first link is everything in a flowing liquid solution, the second is for sludge. Please compare apples to apples if you want to prove anything worthwhile other than trying too hard to prove your self in this failing thread.

http://dge.stanford.edu/SCOPE/SCOPE_31/SCOPE_31_2.05_Chapter10_119-146.pdf

Two things of note from this document:
1) The amounts of Cd introduced into the soil through normal phosphorus fertilization, however, are quite small. For example, the application of 50 kg P per hectare from rock phosphate [CaIOF2(P04)6] which contained 20 mg P per kg would introduce 5.4 gm of Cd to the soil. If mixed with the surface 15 cm of a silt loam soil, this application would increase the Cd concentration of a soil containing 0.3 mg Cd/kg by about 1%.
2) The two most important factors governing the uptake of cadmium by crops are the soil pH and the concentration of Cd in the soil....If other soil conditions remain unchanged, the cadmium concentration of plant tissue would decrease as the pH of the soil increased...The mean concentration of Cd in Swiss chard grown at control plots of four farms with soil pH values ranging from 4.9 to 5.4 was 1.98 mg Cd/kg while that of the limed control plots (soil pH values between 6.] to 6.4) was 0.57 mg Cd/kg. Liming the same soils which were contaminated with Cd from land application of municipal sewage sludge reduced the mean Cd concentration of the Swiss chard from 40.5 to 3.0] mg/kg.

So fertilizers actually introduce very low levels of Cd and furthermore, keeping soil pH above 6 would greatly reduce any chance for absorption in plants, particularly considering that we seem to be focusing on MJ plants grown in soil in containers for only a few months.

You are trying way too hard to prove your points on this thread, and failing by not using valid comparisons. Just take your lumps and admit you are wrong about some things.
 
brotherjericho

brotherjericho

Well-Known Member
Furthermore, a quick search on the Net shows that acidifying the soil, thus making Cd more available for uptake by plants, is a method by which Cd can be removed. That is, the soil is acidified to a level where certain plants will still live but Cd uptake is maximized. They theorize using certain plants to actually remove Cd from soil. Therefore, your idea of using acetic acid to pH water down to 5.0 will actually increase the likelihood that heavy metals become available for the MJ plant to uptake in the roots.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2005/050614.htm
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top