Toooo much light... I know... I know. How to harness the POW'A!

[Scotch089]

Whelp, Ive always like to try and get higher wattage's fit into what I do. Here it comes, I would not suggest this for higher quality panels. Nope.

The fancy talk:

I have 3 2012 Area 51 -90 (model) panels

Each giving me 195 watts on full illumination

Using Heliopto emitters

x2 with custom spectrum

4250k panel giving me 49.935wpsf
10:2:3 panels give me 99.871wpsf


What's happening:

My 4250k panel can get as close as 14" before chlorosis kicks in, nothing too alarming until you hit about 12" away.

My WW panels MUST stay 20+" away to keep things happy, on full power. again, 195 x 2= 390 actual watts drawn is my idea as the culprit. 24" is where Ive let them be on full.


What I would like to know:

What can I do to harness this extra light? Been thinking about CO2 to help use the heat in my favor. and the wpsf in turn.

You think CO2 WOULD help this?

A big one I think would bring up a lot of debate: What do you think is more effective? Docking the panels further away on full power, or closer on half.

Is there any other wavelengths I could implement to help make the current spectrum available?

ETC ETC ETC.

Basically this has just been bothering me and wanted to hear some other's insight. Multiple veiwpoints will ALWAYS outdo one.

And honestly it just may be the heat playing into it- seizing transpiration from the stomata, stopping photos. and THEN it is unusable light- causing chlorosis.

(I have no problem docking back my power, especially with the humidity and heat right now. 195w is still plenty for my space, and two panels on half power spreads it MUCH more evenly then one fully powered panel would anyways)

If you need examples, scope out my thread- there should be some pictures of a few weeks back. around the beginning of flowering, that should give an idea of the differences im seeing.

 

[qwizoking]

I know I have nothing to contribute. I would just like to say that I wish more threads were like this. Good show sir. Well thought out readable all the info required was provided just my opinion.

 

[Scotch089]

Haha I appreciate that king, I try to collect my thoughts before posting.. Most of the time.. Only downfall is a post takes up half the page with separate paragraphs. My "journal" thread is a good example lol.

I think I'm catching on, dumb questions are simply answered with silence.

Though I would like to take some readings with a halfway decent meter and see which would give the higher reading:

-docking back 390w
-lowering 195w

i saw dawg recently suggested a decent meter (even told me what it was a while back too..) but forgot what brand/model it was. Anyone have some suggestions?

 

[tags420]

CO2 would definitely allow for better growth at higher temps.

A few different variables between the panels but good question. The par meter would be best. But they are so pricey I'l rather get a new panel.

You are talking about 3 panels...2 WW and 1 4250k right??
What is the difference between just 1 WW@18" vs 4250k@18" would show how the lights effect the plants different.

I think you would get the same readings for the (2)WW's@24" and the (1)4250k@15" and you would get better complete(edges) coverage from the 2, even being hung higher.

 

[Scotch089]

Thanks Tags, yup, I was just using the 4250k panel's distance as reference for what one panel in the same same footprint does. I don't think spectrum would make those large of differences? I mean.. it is just more phosphor... right?

Where Im seeing issues is mainly under the WW panels, I think I kindve answered my question to what would happen if I drew the same wattage in both cabs (one 4250k panel, one WW panel) when I docked both panels back to one bay of modules on at a time, I've been rotating them for a few cycles now and then have darkened back up... to where the nute burn makes sense contradictive signs will really throw you for one.. haha

I think the issue lles in the Intensity of light, maybe its not being spread as much as it may need in such narrow spaces like my cabinets? 80* lenses, I know "what spectrum is being emitted," I thnk getting a par reading is what will tell me if I have to much of the spec hitting my leaves.. i have a shitty little light meter, highest I've got it is about halfway on full illumination and a quarter way on half draw.

<<-- my WW spectrum//////\\\\\\the 4250k spectrum -->> o.0 only phosphor.. right? hahahaha...

My thought on rotating the modules was imitating a light mover each light cycle, I went ahead and kicked everything back on full power, and docked back the WW's to 22" hopefully everything stays green but the SLH is halfway through flower and Id really like to give them every thing I can.

Im thinking about rigging up some yeast CO2 containers and hosing em in there...

Any word on other models besides the 480 being released T?

 

[tags420]

I hang my lights higher when I have all my panels up. The cross over adds up.

The original plan for 480 was just (4)AT120's but that works perfectly for the inverse square law. Like your situation with 2 light at a higher height is the same as 1 hung lower.

But then the new chip is coming too and everything is better.
The new at120 will be the AT200 and the at480 will actually now be the AT660...things could change slightly but basically they will be based on the actual wattage draw. And the T8led tubes will be on the site then too(no fixtures yet). They abandoned the zeppelin bar unit I believe. I think the T8led's will be best for those kinds of applications.
All is being launched at the max yield show on the 27-28 this month, so all available after that(so they say). When I see everything in person I will let everyone know what's the scoop.

 

[rippn13]

I have been messing with this same topic for some time Scotch. I have a A-240 and a A-135 in a 3x3. The 135 is around 225 watts so the 240 would be in between 500 and 600 watts. I am running at full power probably less than 12" right now. I feel like my panels produce the best when the light is further away and at full power instead of half power up close. I might even say they do better at full power up close than they do at half. I am not 100% convinced yet but that is the way I am leaning.

In my veg tent I have been keeping my 90 and 220 much higher just to see what happens. The 220 is about 24" from it's plants and the 90 is about 36" to 48" from it's plants. I have been switching between half and full power even at this distance. I am finding that the growth is slowed down when running half power from that great of a distance.

I had the 90 around 3" to 4" away from that Black Russian last grow and it produced the biggest knot for me to date.

Not sure if I am doing anything other than rambling here but I would agree that there is a sweet spot with my lights that is around the 16" to 20" but the plants seem to do better with them closer than further away.

My temps have been better this year than last but they are still much higher than I like.

 

[Scotch089]

I hang my lights higher when I have all my panels up. The cross over adds up...

Damn that M.Y. show would be a wicked trip, cali right? Ill keep my eyes peeled for the 200, the dimesions are just ideal.

I have been messing with this same topic for some time Scotch. I have a A-240 and a A-135 in a 3x3...

temps are killing me this year, I have some serious curling that's occurred in the last week. I ended up setting everything back to full blast further away. Its good to know you were able to get your 90 that close, were there any signs of chlorosis or stunting? Hell... this is makin me want to segregate each panel and find out if high temps is starting it all.

 

[starcraftguy1988]

I hang my lights higher when I have all my panels up. The cross over adds up.

The original plan for 480 was just (4)AT120's but that works perfectly for the inverse square law. Like your situation with 2 light at a higher height is the same as 1 hung lower.

But then the new chip is coming too and everything is better.
The new at120 will be the AT200 and the at480 will actually now be the AT660...things could change slightly but basically they will be based on the actual wattage draw. And the T8led tubes will be on the site then too(no fixtures yet). They abandoned the zeppelin bar unit I believe. I think the T8led's will be best for those kinds of applications.
All is being launched at the max yield show on the 27-28 this month, so all available after that(so they say). When I see everything in person I will let everyone know what's the scoop.

Hey guys, I am actually in a similar boat... sort of. I just bought 4 A51 sgs160s and have 6, month and a half old plants. Im currently running 3 of 4 total and with reds and whites because they are really liking the added red even through veg. The height of the lights are roughly 24" above the tops, and the total area used is roughly 4X2 and the plants them selves are roughly 8" to 12" tall. they appear to be liking the lights where they are for now which is good because i didnt know how to set up the little rope rachet right and now adjusting it just tilts one side to the other.... any help there lol?... but anyways i was curious is it still ok to have them at 18" through flowering or is this gonna be too much light regardless. also the light spacing will likely be right beside each other in either a 4x1 or two rows of 2x1.. the latter will allow for more space, id like to just squeeze all four in that 4x2 and call it a day and pray for a pound lol Wish me luck! second grow! Also how warm does it need to be for the plants to harness the Co2 and also what about small amounts of Co2 like if raised the ppms in my area to 300 would that be beneficial to the plants without high heat. Doesn't it have to do with respiration or something?
Sweet thread scotch!
Tags, When do these new Apache tech lights come out and how much per panel bottom line, will there be an excellent discount for these as well? or does this all fall under the u will fill us all in when u know more.....?!?!?!

 

[Scotch089]

Ambient CO2 will ALWAYS help out, I open up the doors and let the outside air inside while I am out there to help "circulate" things the best I can with the cool night air. As im out there I notice my inline fan slow down from my TV2 controller and temps dropping. Look at outdoor grows, constant surplus of moderate CO2... lucky ducks...

I think when you are talking about some high ppm enrichment you're looking at 14-1800ppm? Right? Sorry Ive read about this a few times but its been a couple years, and you want to be in the 78-85* area instead of 68-75. Again someone chime in if I am wrong

Where in the hell did Psu get his temp/CO2 monitor?! I need to snag me up a couple of them bad boys.. see how deprived these kids really are.

kick ass 4x2 setup and best of luck!

 

[tags420]

scotch clear you PM's.

starcraftguy...last line of my paragraph you quoted and some more in my thread. I will have in person official info this weekend and will update in my thread.

No CO2 experience myself. It lets temps run about 10*higher than no co2 from what I understand about that part.

Think of you hanging situations this way...
The recommended 18" is to supply the canopy with the target ~700umol (the basic high light requirement for plants but mj will take more for sure). By adding more light to the same size area you increase the PPFD or par in a meter^2. Inverse square law says 2x the distance gives only 1/4 the power.
Example
1 unit does 1000umol@12"...then double the distance to 24" and you only have ~250umol.
But add 3 more panels(4 total) and you have ~1000umol@24". and probably a lot better coverage and power at the edges.

 

[rippn13]

I really like the sound of that set up Starcraftguy. Sounds like you have enough light. My plants usually end up within 12" or less when flowering and I have yet too see any problems. I do think they flower better at the 16" to 20" distance.

Hey Scotch... that 90 cause no problems at all being that close. Like I said it grew my biggest knot to date. I did end up with one dominant branch and cola because that cola hogged most of the light.

 

[starcraftguy1988]

Thanks everyone for the useful information. Tags Please do alert me when you know more about Apaches upcoming panels, I will probably be looking to purchase one or two in the next half year and am very excited if they're new technology boasts a greater performance than the AT120.
Great info btw on the lights and how the overlap works.
Thanks rippn, Its gonna be a ton of light, running three right now in the same space lets me know what im looking forward too with one more as far as intensity and heat. Actually just ran a little experiment put the the trays holding the pots up about 5 inches off the ground/closer to the light and did some lst on the two main colas of each plant just pullling them down to even the canopy and spread them out a bit more. They look great so far, all plants are about 18"-20" from the lights after lst and im gonna check on them regularly to make sure they arent climbing back up to the light too quickly. Id tie them down but i get bored and enjoy working with the plants and spending time with them, plus they are a little young and tender for the plant tie that i have, used some on the papaya and it left a little black spot on the lower stem, possibly necrotic, but i'm doubting its serious as the plant is still very healthy and growing daily. Thanks everyone for the help, Scotch, tags, rippn and the rest!
I quite like this little LED community around here, very polite, helpful and enthusiastic, consider me "subbed" to the Led community! I'll get some pics up when I get a camera, so you guys can see these pretty ladies under these badass lights and give me your thoughts. The (all feminized) strains are Lsd, Laughing buddah, Skunk#1 by NL#5, Pakistan valley, with last and certainly least IMO Papaya, Popped five papaya 4 popped, 2 no vigor, 1 mutant, 1 good pheno. Was like damn considering i popped one each of the others and they are all beautiful, with maybe a few keeper phenos!!! Fingers crossed!
Thanks again!

 

[The Dawg]

Haha I appreciate that king, I try to collect my thoughts before posting.. Most of the time.. Only downfall is a post takes up half the page with separate paragraphs. My "journal" thread is a good example lol.

I think I'm catching on, dumb questions are simply answered with silence.

Though I would like to take some readings with a halfway decent meter and see which would give the higher reading:

-docking back 390w
-lowering 195w

i saw dawg recently suggested a decent meter (even told me what it was a while back too..) but forgot what brand/model it was. Anyone have some suggestions?

Here Ya Go brother http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/apogee-mq-200-par-meter

 

[Highocaine]

I read in.. one of the bibles about the 5 resources for plants.. Light, Nutes, CO2, O, H2O.
If any of those is lacking, it doesn't matter how much of the others you have, they won't be utilized by the plant.

So I guess if you want to use more light, you may have to supplement with CO2, feed more, water more, and increase oxygen to the roots. But.. you probably already knew that.

 

[Eraserhead]

Why would you try to run 4 of the SGS's in a 2x4?! Even 2 of those in that area is an overkill. If you followed recommended usage of them you'll get way better results.

Each unit should be 18" above the canopy over a 24"x36" footprint.

Here's a guy using 2 units in a 35"x54" tent: https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/644641-all-cree-led-plus-waterfarm.html

Hey guys, I am actually in a similar boat... sort of. I just bought 4 A51 sgs160s and have 6, month and a half old plants. Im currently running 3 of 4 total and with reds and whites because they are really liking the added red even through veg. The height of the lights are roughly 24" above the tops, and the total area used is roughly 4X2 and the plants them selves are roughly 8" to 12" tall. they appear to be liking the lights where they are for now which is good because i didnt know how to set up the little rope rachet right and now adjusting it just tilts one side to the other.... any help there lol?... but anyways i was curious is it still ok to have them at 18" through flowering or is this gonna be too much light regardless. also the light spacing will likely be right beside each other in either a 4x1 or two rows of 2x1.. the latter will allow for more space, id like to just squeeze all four in that 4x2 and call it a day and pray for a pound lol Wish me luck! second grow! Also how warm does it need to be for the plants to harness the Co2 and also what about small amounts of Co2 like if raised the ppms in my area to 300 would that be beneficial to the plants without high heat. Doesn't it have to do with respiration or something?
Sweet thread scotch!
Tags, When do these new Apache tech lights come out and how much per panel bottom line, will there be an excellent discount for these as well? or does this all fall under the u will fill us all in when u know more.....?!?!?!

As far as them being hotter or cooler than the Apache Tech 120, here's a post from a guy using both the SGS and the Apache Tech:

Hey EH, yeah I'm loving the way my two violator kush have vegged directly under the SGS-160, can't wait to see how it flowers these ladies. As far as the heat output compared to the AT120, they are pretty similar. Neither is warm to the touch. Although the Apache does seem to push out more heat out the vents, not sure if it's because it's actually getting hotter than the SGS or if it's just the way the fans are setup. The two lights compliment each other very well. The SGS is definitely quieter though and I like that. Stop by my thread sometime to check out the girls.

Looking forward to the spectrum charts!

@Vlad, actually, if Area51 can work with you on the invoice to potentially make taxes less hefty, then they would absolutely be up there near the top of the list.