defoliation? yes/no and techniques

[jacksthc]

Auxins are the plant hormones which help in maintaining apical dominance in plant. This hormone helps in stem elongation in a plant by stopping lateral buds to grow. Auxins are always produced in the root, shoot and bud tip. Lateral buds remain inactive because of auxins and apical buds grow fast. So, if the apex or tip of a plant is taken out or cut, no auxin is produced in that plant after that for some time and this promotes lateral growth of the plant.

thanks chuck estevez

that has answered loads of question I have wanted to know for a long time.

some years back I striped 6" of fan leaves off a top shoot to see if I could slow it down to keep the canopy level, it worked great

and from that day have used defoliation (removed the odd fan leaf) to slow some top shoots down and keep the node space closers so thanks to you I know what is called and you know it works
rep+ for you my friend

 

[chuck estevez]

thanks chuck estevez

that has answered loads of question I have wanted to know for a long time.

some years back I striped 6" of fan leaves off a top shoot to see if I could slow it down to keep the canopy level, it worked great

and from that day have used defoliation (removed the odd fan leaf) to slow some top shoots down and keep the node space closers so thanks to you I know what is called and you know it works
rep+ for you my friend

UB has screamed apical dominance for ever. I supercrop, which was explained to me as redistributing those auxins from the main to the laterals to make them all equal.

 

[lilroach]

Now I always thought the buds were located where they are to collect pollen more efficiently....thus the bigger ones near the top, and pop-corn down at the bottom.......or what Chuck said.

 

[Uncle Ben]

View attachment 2830817

I just included that last one cause it's so fucking beautiful..

No fair cherry picking your worst LOl!

 

[Uncle Ben]

For one, if you normally take pictures you would know that UBs plants are illuminated because of flash. It says nothing of how much light the lower buds get during their normal growth cycle.

The only usable light they get is R and FR thru the leaves but that's not the issue. (I've discussed the importance of R and FR spectrum in previous threads). You can't convince most newbs that budsites don't need a lot of light. It's like they've made up some "given", it became another misguided forum consensus, and no amount of science is gonna convince them otherwise. "Don't confuse me with the facts". Like I said before, the few small leaves at the budsites don't have the ability to contribute much value to the plant compared to the efficient, large solar collectors (fan leaves). You pull leaves, you set the plant back. Simple science. And saying "it works" is pretty lame. That's like saying rubbing bacon grease on my cracked hands works, but I'd much rather use Gold Bond Ultimate.

Here's some shots using HID natural lighting. (Last one is flash I believe) Note how crowded I keep my garden and shaded the lower part of the plants are. If you look closely, you'll also see bud development down low. These are sativa dominant plants FWIW.



Here's a shot of some pretty nice chunky Jack Herer nuggets, second harvest after the big colas were taken. Again, you have to have leaves at the bottom of the plant when you put it back under the lights to pull this off. Sorry leaf pluckers, but light shining on those budsites aint gonna do squat. Probably a good oz there, not a lot, but like they say, "waste not, want not".

Second, topping and defoliating, while both remove parts of the plant, are totally different in practice and purpose. When I top a plant it is early in the plants life providing ample time for recovery (minimal if ANY stress. Evident in vigorous new growth the very next day). More importantly it serves the purpose of creating a distinct and practical plant structure. Four equal main colas that spread apart as the plant matures for improved circulation and light penetration. It is predictable and practical.

....and fool proof.

While some of you seem to have some sort of rationale, most have completely inconsistent and Irrational reasons. Trust me, if only one person could explain why and how it works I'd try it.

But you're a scientist and master gardener and know better than to waste your time. I've yanked leaves on a very bush plant many years ago. The result? Replacement of what I yanked, output from the nodal axis (an issue never discussed by the leaf pluckers)....and of course it set the plant back because there was less food being made for a period of weeks.

Honestly I kinda wantvit to be true because I love to experiment.

Experiment, find out for yourself. I've done a bunch of experimenting on cannabis. It's the only way you learn. My seed germ method regarding proper pot heights came as a result of experimenting, a 3 time freeze/thaw of seeds regarding viability came out of an experiment, I experimented on Mex seed regarding pesticide applications to test their tendency to burn the leaves......

Hard to beat Tio and Hank's solid botanical knowledge with "it works for me" or just a picture that shows mature buds. I've had buddies grow buds using incandescent bulbs. That is not proof that incandescent is the way to go.

Interesting point, I and most others really got hung up on spectrums when we first started out. I spent 100's of hours on research and have dozens of spectral analysis graphs on all kinds of lights - fluors, HID, incandescent. I was discussing this spectral issue with a Parks Superintendent of a large city and he said he and his son did a high school experiment and found that a pure red light grew plants as well as any other colored bulb. They tried different colored bulbs. Their conclusion and my observation after growing some of my best with pure HPS from start to finish made me come to the conclusion that the hydro lighting sales segment was yet another gimmicky way of making money.

Good luck,
UB

 

[Uncle Ben]

plants don't grow this way, all the good dank bud is where the light is, some growers use side light to help lower buds get ripe/dank and some grower do a double harvest to get lower buds dank

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Bud found at the lower levels was found to be more potent than top bud per Mel Frank's reporting. You're shooting off your mouth again showing your ignorance where Frank reported actual scientifically derived results based on the U. of Miss. laboratory analysis. Buy the book, you might learn something (then again you might not).

why does the best buds always grow where the light is ?

Well fuck a duck, I explained this twice! Are you fuckin' blind and can't read nor comprehend or you just STOOOOOOOOOOOOopid?

OK, open up. Uncle Ben gonna spoon feed da baby, post #416:

1. A fan leaf contributes to the entire plant, all plant tissue above and below ground, and it doesn't matter where it's located. If the leaf is not productive it will be dropped due to a CO2 flag mechanism,

2. There is no credible green tissue located at the flowering sites aka bud sites except for the small fan leaves and a few single bladed leaves interspersed here and there. The calyxes just don't have the mass, the chloroplasts, nor exposure to collect photons, the reason why God made large, extended, fan leaves in the first place,

3. I can spot a young, ignorant starter every time when they constantly try to make the argument of "defoliation gets more light to the bud sites" as if any carbohydrates produced there, stay there, directed solely at that spot.

Now, some of you will never get what I've been trying to convey because you don't want to hear it....... but popcorn buds are a result of the growth pattern and chronological age of cannabis, which also includes the impact of natural hormonal responses, apical dominance. I get popcorn buds on outdoor grown plants, it is what it is. Any plant material whether it be cannabis, a peach tree, a pecan, a rose.... is going to give the goodies up first to the newest growth and many times at the lowest plant tissues' expense. Good example (I see around here) is the prevalent N deficiency I see with lower leaves prematurely going yellow and eventually being dropped thanks to that CO2 flag - the lower leaves are giving up, translocating its N to the upper parts of the plant. If you don't have chlorophyll production and maintenance then the leaf will drop.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Auxins are the plant hormones which help in maintaining apical dominance in plant. This hormone helps in stem elongation in a plant by stopping lateral buds to grow. Auxins are always produced in the root, shoot and bud tip. Lateral buds remain inactive because of auxins and apical buds grow fast. So, if the apex or tip of a plant is taken out or cut, no auxin is produced in that plant after that for some time and this promotes lateral growth of the plant.

Yep, and then there is the hormonal response called phototropism.

 

[chuck estevez]

Yep, and then there is the hormonal response called phototropism.

NICE, Found this on that.

 

[Uncle Ben]

NICE, Found this on that.View attachment 2831230

Yeppers, the cells on the shaded side actually divide causing elongation and a tilting of the leaf towards the sun. Wonder if that effect is the same for a sunflower, where the head tracks the sun from sunrise to sunset.

 

[HeartlandHank]

::Snipp::

why does the best buds always grow where the light is ?

UB has answered this countless times..

 

[HeartlandHank]

And if my S1 Green Crack can hang in the conversation with the defoliators plants then I can show you it at harvest with leaves removed..
You're gonna have to wait 4 weeks or so though..

 

[HeartlandHank]

Bud found at the lower levels was found to be more potent than top bud per Mel Frank's reporting.

I've noticed this before! lower buds and even buds on the backside of the plant (away from the bulb) are more resinous at times..

 

[jacksthc]

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Bud found at the lower levels was found to be more potent than top bud per Mel Frank's reporting. You're shooting off your mouth again showing your ignorance where Frank reported actual scientifically derived results based on the U. of Miss. laboratory analysis. Buy the book, you might learn something (then again you might not).



Well fuck a duck, I explained this twice! Are you fuckin' blind and can't read nor comprehend or you just STOOOOOOOOOOOOopid?

OK, open up. Uncle Ben gonna spoon feed da baby, post #416:

1. A fan leaf contributes to the entire plant, all plant tissue above and below ground, and it doesn't matter where it's located. If the leaf is not productive it will be dropped due to a CO2 flag mechanism,

2. There is no credible green tissue located at the flowering sites aka bud sites except for the small fan leaves and a few single bladed leaves interspersed here and there. The calyxes just don't have the mass, the chloroplasts, nor exposure to collect photons, the reason why God made large, extended, fan leaves in the first place,

3. I can spot a young, ignorant starter every time when they constantly try to make the argument of "defoliation gets more light to the bud sites" as if any carbohydrates produced there, stay there, directed solely at that spot.

Now, some of you will never get what I've been trying to convey because you don't want to hear it....... but popcorn buds are a result of the growth pattern and chronological age of cannabis, which also includes the impact of natural hormonal responses, apical dominance. I get popcorn buds on outdoor grown plants, it is what it is. Any plant material whether it be cannabis, a peach tree, a pecan, a rose.... is going to give the goodies up first to the newest growth and many times at the lowest plant tissues' expense. Good example (I see around here) is the prevalent N deficiency I see with lower leaves prematurely going yellow and eventually being dropped thanks to that CO2 flag - the lower leaves are giving up, translocating its N to the upper parts of the plant. If you don't have chlorophyll production and maintenance then the leaf will drop.

not good with science talk, but this don't mean I can't grow a plant
trying my best to explain
how I grow


so when I remove some fan leaves from the top shoots the apical dominance in the plants changes as the top shoots are damaged and need time to repair, so the lower shoots become the apical dominance shoot
and all the top shoots I remove fan leaves from become thicker and stronger also the nodes grow a lot closer

the results are a level canopy of top apical dominance strong top shoots

so this gives me total control over the canopy shape, also by taking longer in veg and keeping the plant short and bushy gives the roots more time to grow

 

[jacksthc]

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Bud found at the lower levels was found to be more potent than top bud per Mel Frank's reporting. You're shooting off your mouth again showing your ignorance where Frank reported actual scientifically derived results based on the U. of Miss. laboratory analysis. Buy the book, you might learn something (then again you might not).



Well fuck a duck, I explained this twice! Are you fuckin' blind and can't read nor comprehend or you just STOOOOOOOOOOOOopid?

OK, open up. Uncle Ben gonna spoon feed da baby, post #416:

1. A fan leaf contributes to the entire plant, all plant tissue above and below ground, and it doesn't matter where it's located. If the leaf is not productive it will be dropped due to a CO2 flag mechanism,

2. There is no credible green tissue located at the flowering sites aka bud sites except for the small fan leaves and a few single bladed leaves interspersed here and there. The calyxes just don't have the mass, the chloroplasts, nor exposure to collect photons, the reason why God made large, extended, fan leaves in the first place,

3. I can spot a young, ignorant starter every time when they constantly try to make the argument of "defoliation gets more light to the bud sites" as if any carbohydrates produced there, stay there, directed solely at that spot.

Now, some of you will never get what I've been trying to convey because you don't want to hear it....... but popcorn buds are a result of the growth pattern and chronological age of cannabis, which also includes the impact of natural hormonal responses, apical dominance. I get popcorn buds on outdoor grown plants, it is what it is. Any plant material whether it be cannabis, a peach tree, a pecan, a rose.... is going to give the goodies up first to the newest growth and many times at the lowest plant tissues' expense. Good example (I see around here) is the prevalent N deficiency I see with lower leaves prematurely going yellow and eventually being dropped thanks to that CO2 flag - the lower leaves are giving up, translocating its N to the upper parts of the plant. If you don't have chlorophyll production and maintenance then the leaf will drop.

I could grow for 20 years and grow the best plants every and not know, just remember you read this info, didn't get it all from growing a plant

 

[lilroach]

Uncle Ben,

Once again I'm going to stray a little bit from the subject.

You've written about light-saturation, different spectrum, and how a plant processes light energy. I know you're primarily an outdoor grower (I envy you), but do you have an opinion on an optimum wattage-per-plant or lumens-per-plant for indoor growing?

I currently have 1,000 watts of over-head lighting (400w MH/600w HPS) on a light mover, and have various florescent lighting coming from the sides and between my eight plants (to ensure there's no "non-light" times when the mover is elsewhere) in a 5x7 flower room.

I've read posts on here and elsewhere (so it has to be true...right?) that 100 watts-per-plant is ideal.

Thanks again for veering off subject to give advice.

EDIT: I read one of your post the other day and you said you've never heard of mainlining. Here's a very good journal of this type of topping:

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/690504-critical-kush-mainlined.html

Here's a pic as a tease...yeah, it's one plant:

 

[Dboi87]

excuse me if I'm being a dunce but exactly what is apical dominance controlled by? i know is the auxins but is it age, or height, or light exposure, or some sort of combination of those factors that distributes them?. the reason i ask is because i noticed that when i was using my vertical bulbs the buds closest to the light (they were lower side buds) developed more quickly than the bud further away.

in fact there's one donkey dick bud that's well over 6" taller than the other and would normally be the most developed bud if the plant was under a horizontal fixture with the light shining straight down.

i want to add that by most developed i mean the most frosty... i remember reading somewhere that resin glands sometimes serve the purpose of protecting the plant. not sure how true that is, but maybe if it does hold some weight, then maybe the reason they are frostier is due to the bud protecting itself from too intense light (flowering plants do not need as intense light as vegging plants) and has nothing to do with apical dominance.

if anyone could clear that up for me it'd be awesome. thanks

 

[lilroach]

excuse me if I'm being a dunce but exactly what is apical dominance controlled by? i know is the auxins but is it age, or height, or light exposure, or some sort of combination of those factors that distributes them?. the reason i ask is because i noticed that when i was using my vertical bulbs the buds closest to the light (they were lower side buds) developed more quickly than the bud further away.

in fact there's one donkey dick bud that's well over 6" taller than the other and would normally be the most developed bud if the plant was under a horizontal fixture with the light shining straight down.

i want to add that by most developed i mean the most frosty... i remember reading somewhere that resin glands sometimes serve the purpose of protecting the plant. not sure how true that is, but maybe if it does hold some weight, then maybe the reason they are frostier is due to the bud protecting itself from too intense light (flowering plants do not need as intense light as vegging plants) and has nothing to do with apical dominance.

if anyone could clear that up for me it'd be awesome. thanks

I don't pretend to know any of this stuff, but hope that it answers your question:

"Although the concept of apical dominance control by the ratio of cytokinin to auxin is not new, recent experimentation with transgenic plants has given this concept renewed attention. In the present study, it has been demonstrated that cytokinin treatments can partially reverse the inhibitory effect of auxin on lateral bud outgrowth in intact shoots of Ipomoea nil. Although less conclusive, this also appeared to occur in buds of isolated nodes. Auxin inhibited lateral bud outgrowth when applied either to the top of the stump of the decapitated shoot or directly to the bud itself. However, the fact that cytokinin promotive effects on bud outgrowth are known to occur when cytokinin is applied directly to the bud suggests different transport tissues and/or sites of action for the two hormones. Cytokinin antagonists were shown in some experiments to have a synergistic effect with benzyladenine on the promotion of bud outgrowth. If the ratio of cytokinin to auxin does control apical dominance, then the next critical question is how do these hormones interact in this correlative process? The hypothesis that shoot-derived auxin inhibits lateral bud outgrowth indirectly by depleting cytokinin content in the shoots via inhibition of its production in the roots was not supported in the present study which demonstrated that the repressibility of lateral bud outgrowth by auxin treatments at various positions on the shoot was not correlated with proximity to the roots but rather with proximity to the buds. Results also suggested that auxin in subtending mature leaves as well as that in the shoot apex and adjacent small leaves may contribute to the apical dominance of a shoot."

http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/6/659.abstract

 

[jacksthc]

from what I have been reading online

apical dominance is controlled by light and hence why I have all way said direct light is needed for good bud growth and hormone helps in stem elongation in a plant by stopping lateral buds to grow (lower shoots receiving low light)

 

[jacksthc]

I don't pretend to know any of this stuff, but hope that it answers your question:

"Although the concept of apical dominance control by the ratio of cytokinin to auxin is not new, recent experimentation with transgenic plants has given this concept renewed attention. In the present study, it has been demonstrated that cytokinin treatments can partially reverse the inhibitory effect of auxin on lateral bud outgrowth in intact shoots of Ipomoea nil. Although less conclusive, this also appeared to occur in buds of isolated nodes. Auxin inhibited lateral bud outgrowth when applied either to the top of the stump of the decapitated shoot or directly to the bud itself. However, the fact that cytokinin promotive effects on bud outgrowth are known to occur when cytokinin is applied directly to the bud suggests different transport tissues and/or sites of action for the two hormones. Cytokinin antagonists were shown in some experiments to have a synergistic effect with benzyladenine on the promotion of bud outgrowth. If the ratio of cytokinin to auxin does control apical dominance, then the next critical question is how do these hormones interact in this correlative process? The hypothesis that shoot-derived auxin inhibits lateral bud outgrowth indirectly by depleting cytokinin content in the shoots via inhibition of its production in the roots was not supported in the present study which demonstrated that the repressibility of lateral bud outgrowth by auxin treatments at various positions on the shoot was not correlated with proximity to the roots but rather with proximity to the buds. Results also suggested that auxin in subtending mature leaves as well as that in the shoot apex and adjacent small leaves may contribute to the apical dominance of a shoot."

http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/38/6/659.abstract

I think this is more based on topping a plant and how it reacts
but at the same time can't see why removing some leaves from a shoot would not react in the same way but be a lot less stress full to the plant and your not cutting the top of the apical dominance shoot off

 

[lilroach]

I think this is more based on topping a plant and how it reacts

It could be talking about the formulation of rocket fuel as far as I know. Way too many Latin terms for me.