Produce Male Seeds?

[Raul Brigante]

Hi,

I've been wondering how to get a healthy male from a Strain only available in Feminized. The first thing that came to mind was to shock the hell out of a flowering female which would induce hermaphrodite traits that would then pollenize whatever other femele is flowering in the garden. But will those seeds produce both male/female seeds or only Herm/females?

Thank you

 

[kgp]

Feminized seeds arent good for breeding. Your better off finding a regular plant, or seeds. Pollinating a fem with fem/hermi pollen will produce all females seeds.

 

[racerboy71]

Feminized seeds arent good for breeding. Your better off finding a regular plant, or seeds. Pollinating a fem with fem/hermi pollen will produce all females seeds.

Exactly why aren't FEMS good for breeding?

 

[Clankie]

Exactly why aren't FEMS good for breeding?

yah, kind of a silly statement when you ponder how many clone only strains arose from the same circumstances as fem seeds. sure there's shitty femmes, but there also are awesome ones. its all about the selection, and the growers talent.

 

[racerboy71]

yah, kind of a silly statement when you ponder how many clone only strains arose from the same circumstances as fem seeds. sure there's shitty femmes, but there also are awesome ones. its all about the selection, and the growers talent.

I agree clankie..
And it wasn't meant to disrespect kgp as I've seen tons of.people say don't breed with FEMS.. sub thinks its better to breed with the he armies he uses to.make his strains than to produce a single fem seed , which I think is irony at it's finest..
I was geniunly interested to see why kgp thinks breeding e FEMS is bad as i surely don't know all and am willing to listen and learn..

 

[Raul Brigante]

I've been wondering how to get a healthy male from a Strain only available in Feminized.

Your better off finding a regular plant, or seeds.

Like mentioned, there are no available Regular Seeds from this Breeder for this particular Stain. Should I just write to him/her asking for a couple of cuts (and Donuts) to be sent out to me by mail in exchange for my most sincere eternal recognition?

 

[loquacious]

Feminized seeds arent good for breeding. Your better off finding a regular plant, or seeds. Pollinating a fem with fem/hermi pollen will produce all females seeds.

Hey, thanks for spreading bullshit and keeping myths alive! Well done sir!

 

[kgp]

No disrespect taken. And I am not expert on the matter and could be totally wrong. We all have our own opinions. I have read many articles by well known breeders saying they only breed with reg seeds stock, and how Fems are good for making buds to smoke. But also ruin the gene pool and lose vigor if the strain keeps getting selfed. These people who say this have much more knowledge, experience, and understanding so I value their opinions.

To breed, you need selection. What you see today is a lot of companies finding all the clone only strains they can and hitting it with their own male. Which at least produces regular seeds, and the crosses can be worked out. And the crosses seem to have more constancy and vigor. If selfing these clone onlys produced equivalent plants, everyone would be doing it. Wouldnt they?

Sannie for example, besides being a super nice guy, is a great breeder who loves to share his knowledge. He knows and studies the ins and outs. Ive heard him on several occasion say not to breed with fems. Even though he makes them.

Speaking of Sannie, I have had a strain of his called extrema (fem). I have ran several packs of them, they are all very consistent and even share one common trait. They hermi very easy. Its the one and only strain that had hermed on my time after time. Anyway, being it is killer smoke, I took advantage of the situation(or so I thought) by selfing the extrema, and also hitting other plants with the herm pollen.

My results were anything but pleasant. The extrema S1's were not consistent, many lost all vigor, popping up, but stunted and not growing. A few were OK, but none as good as I get out the pack from sannie.

The Fem crosses were nothing special either, even though the extrema was great, and the plant I hit it with was also, I was very disappointed in the outcome..

I have hit an extrema with real male pollen, and had much better results, and it seems the herm trait went away too.

I base my opinion on others who I would value what they say, and my own yet limited experiences. Feel free to prove me wrong, or try it for yourself. I am not a botanist or scientist. Just a normal guy with a passion for MJ, and this is my opinion.

 

[kgp]

Hey, thanks for spreading bullshit and keeping myths alive! Well done sir!

This is my opinion, Sir. Just like you have yours. Im glad you see with an open mind. Now why dont take it up with the folks who say the same and have been doing it much longer and much better than you.

Youre the one who doesnt know which kind of light to use on your next grow. LMFAO

 

[Jogro]

Can of worms, opened.

I've been wondering how to get a healthy male from a Strain only available in Feminized.

Quick answer is, it can't be done. You can't cross only female plants and end up with a male one.

In practice, you can "reverse" a female plant to create pollen, and use that to pollinate another female plant (or even the same one), thereby avoiding the need for a true male. This is how "feminized" ceeds are created.

Also, in practice, most strains available as "female only" are hybridized, and if you were to cross them with themselves (or even a male of the same line) you wouldn't end up with offspring that looked exactly like the parent, but instead a variety of phenotypes.

Feminized seeds arent good for breeding.

Don't think the original question was asking about "breeding"; it was asking about male plants.

To be clear, there is a difference between BREEDING (ie creating NEW lines by crossing others and doing selection) and just making ceeds. Its necessary to create ceeds to do breeding, but its certainly not sufficient. IE, in my opinion, just crossing two plants to make beans isn't really "breeding", its just ceed-making, and there is a difference.

To address the can of worms, the conventional wisdom amongst breeders is that you don't breed with feminized ceeds. I've heard any number of breeders SAY this, but with one exception, I've never heard anyone give any kind of scientific/genetic/or other plausible explanation what difference it makes, or why you shouldn't.

From my perspective, there is no fundamental/genetic/chromosomal difference between a female plant that has two female parents vs one that has a male and a female parent. I don't know what difference this makes, and I chalk up this to just breeder "superstition".

The exception is that Ed Rosenthal (expert grower, author, and former cultivation editor of High Times magazine) has said that *IF* you start using feminized beans, and do selections for plants that are easily feminized you're going to impart a tendency for hermaphroditism to the offspring. That actually does make sense, but it implies that you're using feminization over multiple generations in your selection, not just one. In other words, you're doing ALL your breeding using JUST female plants. In this case, I would agree with him at least in principle, though in practice, a. Nobody does this, and b. Even if you did, I think if you were careful to look for and cull out hermies, it might not matter.

The fact is, a significant plurality (if not absolute majority) of small growers are starting with feminized ceeds. Its to the point where several companies offer nothing BUT feminized ceeds, and a few of the breeders that said they weren't going to offer any have relented to market pressure and started doing so anyway.

But the point is, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with fem ceeds from a growing standpoint, and you can get excellent plants this way.

 

[kgp]

Don't think the original question was asking about "breeding"; it was asking about male plants.

To be clear, there is a difference between BREEDING (ie creating NEW lines by crossing others and doing selection) and just making ceeds. Its necessary to create ceeds to do breeding, but its certainly not sufficient. IE, in my opinion, just crossing two plants to make beans isn't really "breeding", its just ceed-making, and there is a difference.

Very true.

 

[Raul Brigante]

Ok. The original post is about getting healthy Males from Feminized seeds, if at all possible . There's no need for an argument. It's growers talking to growers, that's a cool thing. I've grown keen of a Strain sold only in F. Seeds (secret parents) and I was just curious as to how to get a clean Male to eventually cross it with another Strain. It's a shame some great Strains aren't available in R. Seeds. That's the risk breeders are willing to take in order to keep their Strains a secret, even if they risk extinction.

 

[Jogro]

I have read many articles by well known breeders saying they only breed with reg seeds stock

To expand on this specifically, in addition to Sannie, Reddog from Sickmeds has told me personally he won't breed with fems believing it leads to hermies.

I've heard/read Subcool from TGA, Don from DNA Genetics, Scott from Rare Dankness, DJ Short, and Kyle Kushman all say either that they don't use fems (ever) or they won't breed with them. I think (but can't remember for sure) also hearing this from Simon of Serious ceeds.

So I'd say this pretty clearly is the consensus amongst the breeding community; breeding from feminized ceeds is frowned upon. But I am sort of generalizing here; each would probably tell you quite a bit more if you asked them to expand, and I don't want to put words into their mouths.

To breed, you need selection. What you see today is a lot of companies finding all the clone only strains they can and hitting it with their own male. Which at least produces regular seeds, and the crosses can be worked out. And the crosses seem to have more constancy and vigor. If selfing these clone onlys produced equivalent plants, everyone would be doing it. Wouldnt they?

There are a few breeders who do put out a lot of S1 type plants; so yes, there are some who do this.

There are multiple issues here other than just using feminized beans at SOME point during the breeding process. The biggest one is hybridization and genetic assortment.

It doesn't matter if you hit an elite "clone only" with pollen from itself or even from a male sibling plant (assuming you had access to it, which you wouldn't). All these elite clone plants are hybrids, and if you cross any two hybrids you end up re-rolling the genetic dice and creating a wide variety of phenos. So in this unselected mix of phenos, you're going to get the full bell curve of genetic possibilities, including (if you're lucky) a few really good ones, but also a huge number of mediocre ones, and some really bad ones.

This is specifically why S1 (self pollinated) versions of famous clone only strains are only very rarely as good as the original. They'll usually have some of the good traits from the parent, but they'll also fall short with many others

As a second issue, repeatedly inbreeding the same strain is often problematic, causing loss of vigor and potentially other issues. Inbreeding can causes emergence of deleterious and otherwise rare recessive traits. Its basically the plant equivalent of having kids with your sister, and it doesn't matter if feminization is involved or not.

 

[Jogro]

Ok. The original post is about getting healthy Males from Feminized seeds, if at all possible

So far as I know, there is no practical way to grow a feminized ceed up to create a male plant.

In theory, something like this could be done at a molecular/chromosomal level, but this is research lab type transgenic stuff, not something that's applicable in the "real world" to people growing.

There's no need for an argument.

I'd say its a "discussion", and its worth discussing. Perhaps "debate" is a better term.

I've grown keen of a Strain sold only in F. Seeds (secret parents) and I was just curious as to how to get a clean Male to eventually cross it with another Strain.

Can't be done.

Your best bet is to find a male of the OTHER strain and cross it with your secret parent strain.

Second best bet would be to "reverse" one of your secret parent female plants to make pollen, then use that for breeding.

Again, in *MY* opinion (and I am NOT a professional breeder) using feminized pollen ONE TIME at the beginning of a selective breeding process is probably otherwise OK. In GENERAL, its not the best idea to start any kind of serious breeding project with a strain of unknown parentage, because you have no idea what kind of "secret" traits it carries. You can find out by selfing it, but now this conversation is getting complicated, and I don't want to turn this into a long winded essay on breeding.

It's a shame some great Strains aren't available in R. Seeds. That's the risk breeders are willing to take in order to keep their Strains a secret, even if they risk extinction.

This is also complicated.

Some breeders don't put out regs, just because there is more market demand for fems, and so its simpler for them that way. They may do this because they think it protects their genetics, but I don't really think it does. Unless their lines are inbred (and most aren't), it doesn't matter because of the hybrid/pheno issue I mentioned above.

I don't think any good traits really face "extinction" (and in fact with increasing legalization and demand the opposite is probably true), though obviously bad COMPANIES do!

 

[kgp]

Heres a suggestion. find a similar stable strain (if possible). Locate a good male, polinate your female, grow the seeds and watch for phenos leaning towards you're mother. Thru selection and even taking a male from the off spring and breeding it back to your mother, you might be able to find a nice male representation of her. Then try and stabilize the off spring.

might be a lot of work, time, and patience. You will have plenty of smoke to keep you occupied, and a nice project to keep you busy. Or not. Just a just a thought.

 

[Raul Brigante]

Hey Jogro, seen your first post after I posted mine. The "argument" was a way of bringing the post back on topic. I'm not a breeder, obviously, but I do breed other fruits. Like mentioned, I was wondering if a F. Seed stressed to Herm. could produce 100% male seeds. The answer seems to be no.

Sure you can breed the other way, keep the F. Plant and use another male, but I think the parenting "order" is quiet important too, who's the mum/dad.

The Strain I'm curious about is a Hybrid from Paradise Seeds.

 

[Jogro]

I was wondering if a F. Seed stressed to Herm. could produce 100% male seeds. The answer seems to be no.

While you can trick a genetically female plant into making stamenate ("male") flowers, with stress or chemicals, these things can't create the equivalent of a "Y" chromosome de novo creating a genetically male plant.

There is also is no such thing as a "masculization" process that will create all male se-eds the way you can create feminized ones.

Sure you can breed the other way, keep the F. Plant and use another male, but I think the parenting "order" is quiet important too, who's the mum/dad.

Some people do believe this, but personally I don't think it matters.

There is phenomenon called "genomic imprinting" where for certain genes in certain organisms it matters which parent the gene comes from. In other words, if you get gene X from the father you'll see one phenotype, but if you get the same gene X from the mother you'll see a different one.

This phenomenon has been described in flowering plants, but I've never heard of it being described in cannabis, and I'm fairly skeptical that its going to apply to most (or even any) of the genes of interest here. In other words I don't think it matters whether a plant is Aa or aA; pheno will be the same.

A good reason to be concerned with which traits come from which parent is just that we're interested mostly in flower development in females. Most of the traits of interest are only really going to be seen in the female parent; from an untested true male father, there is a little bit of guesswork as to which traits its going to pass on to daughter plants.

In other words, its easy to see which traits the mom might pass onto daughter plants; not so easy which ones the dad might pass on.

The Strain I'm curious about is a Hybrid from Paradise Seeds.

Which one?

 

[Raul Brigante]

The Delahaze.

 

[Jogro]

The Delahaze.

OK.

I really don't know much about that one, other than that its supposed to be a fast-maturing haze (ie mixed sativa dominant plant).

If you want to make more se-eds, as mentioned above your best bet is to find a similar haze that you also like, then cross a male of that with your delahaze. That won't give you exactly the same thing, but it may be "good enough". If you're willing to do the work, you could then backcross plants grown from your ceeds back to the delahaze mother, and do more selection for plants like the mother. After this backcross you should be seeing a good number of plant that are somewhat (if not entirely) similar to the mother.

 

[ak84]

No disrespect taken. And I am not expert on the matter and could be totally wrong. We all have our own opinions. I have read many articles by well known breeders saying they only breed with reg seeds stock, and how Fems are good for making buds to smoke. But also ruin the gene pool and lose vigor if the strain keeps getting selfed. These people who say this have much more knowledge, experience, and understanding so I value their opinions.

To breed, you need selection. What you see today is a lot of companies finding all the clone only strains they can and hitting it with their own male. Which at least produces regular seeds, and the crosses can be worked out. And the crosses seem to have more constancy and vigor. If selfing these clone onlys produced equivalent plants, everyone would be doing it. Wouldnt they?

Sannie for example, besides being a super nice guy, is a great breeder who loves to share his knowledge. He knows and studies the ins and outs. Ive heard him on several occasion say not to breed with fems. Even though he makes them.

Speaking of Sannie, I have had a strain of his called extrema (fem). I have ran several packs of them, they are all very consistent and even share one common trait. They hermi very easy. Its the one and only strain that had hermed on my time after time. Anyway, being it is killer smoke, I took advantage of the situation(or so I thought) by selfing the extrema, and also hitting other plants with the herm pollen.

My results were anything but pleasant. The extrema S1's were not consistent, many lost all vigor, popping up, but stunted and not growing. A few were OK, but none as good as I get out the pack from sannie.

The Fem crosses were nothing special either, even though the extrema was great, and the plant I hit it with was also, I was very disappointed in the outcome..

I have hit an extrema with real male pollen, and had much better results, and it seems the herm trait went away too.

I base my opinion on others who I would value what they say, and my own yet limited experiences. Feel free to prove me wrong, or try it for yourself. I am not a botanist or scientist. Just a normal guy with a passion for MJ, and this is my opinion.

While I'm not totally convinced that fems are bad for breeding, and will be personally testing your theory on hermie pollen, you pose a good argument.

I currently have 3 seeds germinating from my last grow, where I hit one of my plants with some polen from an ugly-ass hermie (to be fair to her, she did get a bit heat-stressed over the summer due to lack of aeration in my growbox). I'll hit you up with the results!