It's Canada's fault the US gov shut down.

[Beefbisquit]

Actually, I think it is a little more complicated than that. First, there is the East/West divide; Western Oil doesn't go back East. Second, there is the NAFTA clause (I believe it is Sec.11 IIRC...it's been a while since I last looked at it) which requires Canada to maintain a rolling 3-month average of supply for the US.

There are more details to it, as well, but I just can't seem to remember it all off the top of my head...

Awesome info, man!

I'm really not up-to-date on my NAFTA info so I'm reserved in my opinions and find it's often better to listen than speak.

Irving, a Canadian gas company, imports most if not all of it's fuel from Venezuela. Like you stated, I'm sure there are reasons behind it, but IMO Canada should be putting itself first and foremost. If there's ways of mitigating oil costs by being more self sufficient, it seems at least plausible, to investigate the merits of doing so.

My fears, and maybe they're somewhat unfounded, are that oil companies are just doing whatever they can to make the most money possible, and are fucking consumers, governments, and the environment in the process.

 

[Doer]

[video=youtube;vxPRHXgYVlk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxPRHXgYVlk[/video] Blame Canada

If it wasn't for South Park I may never have heard about Canada.....somewhere north, sounds like.

 

[Beefbisquit]

If it wasn't for South Park I may never have heard about Canada.....somewhere north, sounds like.

We would LOVE to keep it that way.

 

[ricky1lung]

Awesome info, man!

I'm really not up-to-date on my NAFTA info so I'm reserved in my opinions and find it's often better to listen than speak.

Irving, a Canadian gas company, imports most if not all of it's fuel from Venezuela. Like you stated, I'm sure there are reasons behind it, but IMO Canada should be putting itself first and foremost. If there's ways of mitigating oil costs by being more self sufficient, it seems at least plausible, to investigate the merits of doing so.

My fears, and maybe they're somewhat unfounded, are that oil companies are just doing whatever they can to make the most money possible, and are fucking consumers, governments, and the environment in the process.

I swear bottled water and the price we were/are willing to pay fooked us.

Yeah I know sounds crazy, but is it really?

 

[heckler73]

My fears, and maybe they're somewhat unfounded, are that oil companies are just doing whatever they can to make the most money possible, and are fucking consumers, governments, and the environment in the process.

Are you kidding me? That is ALL they are out to do--they are beholden to share-holders--and Harpo has done nearly everything he can to bend over for them. Now, Alberta's PM and BC's infamous Crispy Clark have done something (albeit minor) to keep them in check (either through royalties or permit delays), but overall, the majors are killing it...
However, the whole thing from a macro level confuses me somewhat. I can't believe someone in power isn't getting some manner of kickback from all of this...

 

[Dr Kynes]

It seems weird that Canada exports most of the crude oil/Bitumen from it's reserves, but imports the majority of fuel it needs.

Are the initial costs up setting up refineries so high that they wouldn't outweigh the savings from not having to import?

canada exports so much oil , yet imports it's fuels based on a simple idea:

OIL IS NOT ENERGY.

oil makes the building blocks for petrochemicals, plastics, road surfaces, tires, pharmaceuticals, and basically everything needed in modern society.

the "energy" and fuels are simply a fairly profitable sideline.

your car is actually a mobile waste disposal system for the Oil Industry and the various other industries that rely on their products.

if the stuff that gets turned into "fuel" could be refined into plastics, pharmaceutical feedstocks and other more profitable products, fuel would be costly as fuck.

the real money in oil is for the stuff in the middle.

we only use as "Fuels" the lightest and less useful parts of oil, and for roads, the heaviest and least useful crap thats left over.

further canada doesn not have the refinery capacity to handle it's oil. cold temps (sorry canada) makes refining oil more expensive, refineries require large numbers of skill workers to operate (sorry canada) good deep water ports for the shipment of finished products (sorry canada) and all these things must operate all year round (sorry canada).

shipping most of their crude oil to refineries elsewhere is essential, since it would be too expensive to do it in canada, but then of course they do need the refined products, so they buy it back from us.

a wheat farmer makes wheat, the miller makes flour, the baker bakes bread, and everybody (including the farmer) buys the bread. thats how the cycle operates.

 

[ricky1lung]

canada exports so much oil , yet imports it's fuels based on a simple idea:

OIL IS NOT ENERGY.

oil makes the building blocks for petrochemicals, plastics, road surfaces, tires, pharmaceuticals, and basically everything needed in modern society.

the "energy" and fuels are simply a fairly profitable sideline.

your car is actually a mobile waste disposal system for the Oil Industry and the various other industries that rely on their products.

if the stuff that gets turned into "fuel" could be refined into plastics, pharmaceutical feedstocks and other more profitable products, fuel would be costly as fuck.

the real money in oil is for the stuff in the middle.

we only use as "Fuels" the lightest and less useful parts of oil, and for roads, the heaviest and least useful crap thats left over.

further canada doesn not have the refinery capacity to handle it's oil. cold temps (sorry canada) makes refining oil more expensive, refineries require large numbers of skill workers to operate (sorry canada) good deep water ports for the shipment of finished products (sorry canada) and all these things must operate all year round (sorry canada).

shipping most of their crude oil to refineries elsewhere is essential, since it would be too expensive to do it in canada, but then of course they do need the refined products, so they buy it back from us.

a wheat farmer makes wheat, the miller makes flour, the baker bakes bread, and everybody (including the farmer) buys the bread. thats how the cycle operates.

OMG!
Canada has skill, Canada can ship, Canada can refine.

Canada has investors to build refineries, but the profitability in Canadian oil
comes from high costs per barrel. It costs more to extract as most is tar sands in Alberta for now.

So Canada (The country) and the oil co's want it shipped out to refine to keep the cost per barrel high.
We small people would like it to be a home grown solution like Venezuela but it wont happen when larger pockets prevail.

 

[Beefbisquit]

canada exports so much oil , yet imports it's fuels based on a simple idea:

OIL IS NOT ENERGY.

oil makes the building blocks for petrochemicals, plastics, road surfaces, tires, pharmaceuticals, and basically everything needed in modern society.

the "energy" and fuels are simply a fairly profitable sideline.

your car is actually a mobile waste disposal system for the Oil Industry and the various other industries that rely on their products.

if the stuff that gets turned into "fuel" could be refined into plastics, pharmaceutical feedstocks and other more profitable products, fuel would be costly as fuck.

the real money in oil is for the stuff in the middle.

we only use as "Fuels" the lightest and less useful parts of oil, and for roads, the heaviest and least useful crap thats left over.

further canada doesn not have the refinery capacity to handle it's oil. cold temps (sorry canada) makes refining oil more expensive, refineries require large numbers of skill workers to operate (sorry canada) good deep water ports for the shipment of finished products (sorry canada) and all these things must operate all year round (sorry canada).

shipping most of their crude oil to refineries elsewhere is essential, since it would be too expensive to do it in canada, but then of course they do need the refined products, so they buy it back from us.

a wheat farmer makes wheat, the miller makes flour, the baker bakes bread, and everybody (including the farmer) buys the bread. thats how the cycle operates.

Good info, except you're a dick. lol

The US Cherry picks Canadians unfortunately.... we get a better education.

Halifax, Vancouver, and The Gulf of St. Lawrence can all support tankers. Halifax was in the bidding for the 'super tanker' port, but didn't get it.

Everything doesn't shut down in the winter. That's like saying New York shuts down in the winter because of the snow.

 

[ChesusRice]

Good info, except you're a dick. lol

The US Cherry picks Canadians unfortunately.... we get a better education.

Halifax, Vancouver, and The Gulf of St. Lawrence can all support tankers. Halifax was in the bidding for the 'super tanker' port, but didn't get it.

Everything doesn't shut down in the winter. That's like saying New York shuts down in the winter because of the snow.

You are lucky the majority of Canadians are white otherwise that dickhead would really tear into you

 

[Dr Kynes]

Good info, except you're a dick. lol

i prefer "Engorged Tumescent Cock" but ok.

The US Cherry picks Canadians unfortunately.... we get a better education.

alright alright if youre gonna be a baby about it, you can have Dave Coulier and Paul Schaefer back, but we are keeping Alex Trebeck, William Shatner and Bill Murray

Halifax, Vancouver, and The Gulf of St. Lawrence can all support tankers. Halifax was in the bidding for the 'super tanker' port, but didn't get it.

if you ever came down to Richmond Calif, you would realize they dodged a bullet.

Everything doesn't shut down in the winter.

Teh Fux U Say?

That's like saying New York shuts down in the winter because of the snow.

no, New York shuts down every winter because they are pansies, the snow is just their excuse.

 

[nitro harley]

canada exports so much oil , yet imports it's fuels based on a simple idea:

OIL IS NOT ENERGY.

oil makes the building blocks for petrochemicals, plastics, road surfaces, tires, pharmaceuticals, and basically everything needed in modern society.

the "energy" and fuels are simply a fairly profitable sideline.

your car is actually a mobile waste disposal system for the Oil Industry and the various other industries that rely on their products.

if the stuff that gets turned into "fuel" could be refined into plastics, pharmaceutical feedstocks and other more profitable products, fuel would be costly as fuck.

the real money in oil is for the stuff in the middle.

we only use as "Fuels" the lightest and less useful parts of oil, and for roads, the heaviest and least useful crap thats left over.

further canada doesn not have the refinery capacity to handle it's oil. cold temps (sorry canada) makes refining oil more expensive, refineries require large numbers of skill workers to operate (sorry canada) good deep water ports for the shipment of finished products (sorry canada) and all these things must operate all year round (sorry canada).

shipping most of their crude oil to refineries elsewhere is essential, since it would be too expensive to do it in canada, but then of course they do need the refined products, so they buy it back from us.

a wheat farmer makes wheat, the miller makes flour, the baker bakes bread, and everybody (including the farmer) buys the bread. thats how the cycle operates.

Hey Doc..

The Good old USA has a refinery almost on the canadian boarder in Bellingham Washington.. It runs year round, I think it is called cherry point refinery...Its a deep water port...And I believe canada has the same potential with shipping...

A friend of mine works on an oil safety vessel incase there is a spill...It's like a quick response boat that is maned and ready to react at a moments notice anchored in the bay next to the tankers....They just sit there in the bay waiting for a spill....

 

[Dr Kynes]

Hey Doc..

The Good old USA has a refinery almost on the canadian boarder in Bellingham Washington.. It runs year round, I think it is called cherry point refinery...Its a deep water port...And I believe canada has the same potential with shipping...

A friend of mine works on an oil safety vessel incase there is a spill...It's like a quick response boat that is maned and ready to react at a moments notice anchored in the bay next to the tankers....They just sit there in the bay waiting for a spill....

one or two refineries is one thing, come down to Richmond Calif and see what a real refinery complex looks like, and youll be thanking your lucky stars that you dont have them up there in Canucklehead land.

you dont WANT refineries in the volume you would need to serve your needs, but the US does.

enjoy your Sweet Release from the HellMouth that is large scale oil refining.

 

[nitro harley]

one or two refineries is one thing, come down to Richmond Calif and see what a real refinery complex looks like, and youll be thanking your lucky stars that you dont have them up there in Canucklehead land.

you dont WANT refineries in the volume you would need to serve your needs, but the US does.

enjoy your Sweet Release from the HellMouth that is large scale oil refining.

Hey Doc..

I haven't been down there to see. I will take your word for it..When I work I burn a lot of fuel up to 250 gallons a day, so the cost of fuel is a daily concern for my buisness..I think it is time for the fuel companies to give up on splitting a penny in ten pieces...And drop the 9/10ths from the signs, and go ahead and round it up one more tenth..

 

[heckler73]

Refinery closures in Canada, 1970-2012
http://membernet.capp.ca/SHB/Sheet.asp?SectionID=7&SheetID=107

Meanwhile, look at the refinery utilization rate.
http://membernet.capp.ca/SHB/Sheet.asp?SectionID=7&SheetID=276

If we're only utilizing ~80% capacity, why make more?
The fact is refining is a Value Added Process, and adds premiums to final products. It's for the same reason we ship raw lumber instead of boards. Customers (i.e. importers of raw resources) want the minimal cost possible. Every stage of development adds to the cost, that is why they are trying to pump "slurry" around. It is the lowest common denominator where customer infrastructure already in place can handle it as an input.
I seem to recall (for the proposed BC pipeline) they were going to mix it with Methanol so it could be splooged to the coastal tankers. Then they recycle the methanol back to the "greazy rock pit" of Fort McMoney to do it all again... Hooray! China gets black goo, to refine and sell back to us as chemicals and plastic doodads.

 

[heckler73]

And speaking of BC Pipelines...

[video=youtube;Cs67Oou_GHQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs67Oou_GHQ[/video]

 

[ricky1lung]

canada exports so much oil , yet imports it's fuels based on a simple idea:

OIL IS NOT ENERGY.

oil makes the building blocks for petrochemicals, plastics, road surfaces, tires, pharmaceuticals, and basically everything needed in modern society.

the "energy" and fuels are simply a fairly profitable sideline.

your car is actually a mobile waste disposal system for the Oil Industry and the various other industries that rely on their products.

if the stuff that gets turned into "fuel" could be refined into plastics, pharmaceutical feedstocks and other more profitable products, fuel would be costly as fuck.

the real money in oil is for the stuff in the middle.

we only use as "Fuels" the lightest and less useful parts of oil, and for roads, the heaviest and least useful crap thats left over.

further canada doesn not have the refinery capacity to handle it's oil. cold temps (sorry canada) makes refining oil more expensive, refineries require large numbers of skilled workers to operate (sorry Canada) good deep water ports for the shipment of finished products (sorry canada) and all these things must operate all year round (sorry canada).

shipping most of their crude oil to refineries elsewhere is essential, since it would be too expensive to do it in canada, but then of course they do need the refined products, so they buy it back from us.

a wheat farmer makes wheat, the miller makes flour, the baker bakes bread, and everybody (including the farmer) buys the bread. thats how the cycle operates.

I take issue with this, it has rubbed me the wrong way ever since the first time I read it.

Next time you think other people are stupid or are of a lesser intellect due to geographical location I urge you to remember this..............
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57606542/u.s-adults-score-poorly-on-global-reading-and-math-test/

 

[Dr Kynes]

Hey Doc..

I haven't been down there to see. I will take your word for it..When I work I burn a lot of fuel up to 250 gallons a day, so the cost of fuel is a daily concern for my buisness..I think it is time for the fuel companies to give up on splitting a penny in ten pieces...And drop the 9/10ths from the signs, and go ahead and round it up one more tenth..

yes, canada's fuel needs are high (cuz it;s fucking cold, and theres like 2 people per 500 square miles so door to door sales is a bitch) but their need for industrial feedstocks is low.

refining oil in canada doesnt make financial sense to the oil companies, so you get reamed on snowmobile gasoline, igloo heating oil and zamboni fuel.

if you could come up with a way to run your snowcat on polar bear lard you could make a mint.

 

[ricky1lung]

yes, canada's fuel needs are high (cuz it;s fucking cold, and theres like 2 people per 500 square miles so door to door sales is a bitch) but their need for industrial feedstocks is low.

refining oil in canada doesnt make financial sense to the oil companies, so you get reamed on snowmobile gasoline, igloo heating oil and zamboni fuel.

if you could come up with a way to run your snowcat on polar bear lard you could make a mint.

Your ignorance is astounding.

 

[Beefbisquit]

Your ignorance is astounding.

It's really not. He's always an idiot.

 

[Dr Kynes]

I take issue with this, it has rubbed me the wrong way ever since the first time I read it.

Next time you think other people are stupid or are of a lesser intellect due to geographical location I urge you to remember this..............
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57606542/u.s-adults-score-poorly-on-global-reading-and-math-test/

canada does not have the sheer numbers of skilled workers and support personnel to run a refinery complex.

this does not imply canadians are dumb, or unskilled, they just lack THAT PARTICULAR skillset, due to lack of those jobs, and also lacks the support infrastructure for a refinery complex which inevitably breeds slums.

nobody gets out of highschool and says to themselves.. "imma be a janitor in a dangerous polluted industrial wasteland where at random times there's poison gas leaks and explosions and shit, and imma live right next to the complex in a drafty shitty crackerboard apartment block constructed in the grand tradition of Soviet Housing, and live the Good Life."

the engineers and other skilled workers always live 20 or 30 miles from The Plant, but the cats who work in the lunchroom, clean the toilets and work at the carwash live right up in the shit.

canada doesnt have an impoverished underclass who would be willing to submit to that for a meager paycheck.

count your blessings bro.

also, what part of canada's shoreline will you sacrifice on the altar of oil refining?

here in the US it was the gulf coast (mostly black and poor) and the East Bay (mostly black and poor) who got the blessings of the "job creators" and now have a delightful lifestyle.

canada doesnt have any deep water port regions full of underclass schlubs who can be foisted with a refinery and it's many attendant horrors for the benefit of a meager paycheck and a shitty future.